Emotional Endurance With Dr. Alicia Naser

Ever wonder how NHL players workout their minds?

Our guest this week, Dr. Alicia Naser, is an expert behavioral coach for pro athletes who works with NHL, junior and collegiate athletes and coaches, amongst others, to build mindset skills, emotional agility and other mental skills to help athletes succeed. 

There a lot of gold in this episode. It’s a great one to listen to with kids. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Hey everybody. This is gonna be a really quick intro today. Uh, this is one of the most profound mental fitness episodes I think we've ever done. Our guest today is Dr. Alicia Nasser. Uh, she works with NHL athletes all the way down uh on mental fitness, on psychology, um, and she just drops truth bombs and and just tactical advice, like things we can all apply to not just hockey, but to parents, coaches, players, the whole episode. Uh, I learned a lot in this episode. Um, and I know if I'm learning a lot, we're all gonna learn a lot. So uh I just wanted to tell you that you're gonna really enjoy this one. Uh also, the only request today is before we dive in, if you can stop or pause and give us that five-star review wherever you're listening on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, uh, even if you're watching this on YouTube, uh, it really helps us grow, right? Um, also, yeah, again, if you find value in the show, don't just do it to do it, right? Do it because you mean it. Um, so if you could pause and do that really quick, we really, really appreciate it. Um, and also any episode you find value in, there's a good chance the other parents, the other coaches are going to find value in that you're around. Share it, share an episode. Um, help us grow this community, uh, not just for our benefit, but for the benefit of all the kids, right? That's why we do it. So here we go. It's Dr. Alicia Nasser on Our Kids Play Hockey. Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Leah Lias with Mike Benelli, and we are joined today by someone who helps professional hockey athletes and teams excel through psychology and neuroscience. Dr. Alicia Nasser, who has a PhD from the Chicago School of Professional Psychology and Applied Behavior Analysis, is an expert coach and consultant to individual athletes, teams, coaches, scouts, and organizations. She currently works with NHL, junior and collegiate athletes and coaches, amongst others, to build mindset skills, emotional agility, and other mental skills to help athletes succeed while reducing psychological suffering and increasing life satisfaction, something we all look for. She shares her journey regularly on social media. You can follow her at Alicia.nasser and is a trailblazer in the way athletes view mental fitness in sport. Needless to say, this is going to be a really impactful episode diving into a topic we are very passionate about. Everyone wants to listen to this one. This is one you're going to want to share. Alicia, welcome to Our Kids Play Hockey.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

The pleasure is all ours. I mean that. So, Alicia, I really want to dive right into this one today because as I said in the intro, you are an expert on a topic we're really passionate about. And, you know, it a lot of hockey players get a lot of skill work, they get a lot of talk about talent. Uh, but I think Mike thinks, and I know you think the mental side of the game is a massive piece of the puzzle. So the first question I want to get into, it's a little juicy, but what are the sub what are some of the common mental struggles you see among athletes that you work with? And how do you help them work through them?

SPEAKER_02 4:21

For sure. So there are two um that no matter level, so juniors, amateur, pro, um, even some of the guys in the NHL that I work with, there is a common theme, and that is self-doubt and anxiety. And a little, those two kind of um intertwine with one another. But the interesting thing to me is, and I think to everybody might find this interesting, is that you would think at a pro level, you're like, oh, self-doubt, it's not a thing. But it is still strong and very much relevant in common at the at the pro level. And it starts or it is prevalent um very early on. Um, I don't know if the younger kiddos are so much aware of it, but they do become aware there is a part um or there is a moment in developmentally where even in the stages of development as a child, we become more aware socially of like the people around us and how they're judging us or what our value is based off of. And so that's where some of that comparison and comes in. And then that self-doubt often is a byproduct of comparison. So the two most important or two most important, the two most common struggles I see is self-doubt, which then is like a ripple effect and has all these other repercussions, and then also an inability to manage what we call anxiety, which essentially just is um uncomfortable thoughts and emotions. But when you have an inability to manage those things, um it then if and this is definitely true when it comes like right before a game, right before they get on the ice, right before they're you know, some big event, um, those two things are the biggest because what happens is they work as a barrier and kind of inhibit an athlete's and player's ability to execute their skills the way they know how. So you're training, your on-ice execution, your office execution, all of these things, and then it comes time to execute and it's right before a game, and then these things set in and it makes it really difficult to do so. So those are two like domains that, of course, within them have subdomains, right? Um in your the second part of your question was how do I help them work through them? So and I think what you might you might find, perhaps not, but we'll see, is that the way that I go about certain things with athletes I work with and players and individuals in general is not very conventional. So I would say, well, why do we have to work through them? Why can't we well, what's the big deal if you have some self-doubt? Now you'd be like, Well, Alicia, but self-doubt, we can't have a player, especially scouts, they'd be like, well, players can't self-doubt themselves. I'm like, well, don't you, as a scout, like in your career, do you doubt your ability, like going from an amateur scout to head scout or whatever the case might be? So, in terms of how do I help them work through it, it's not so much about why do we always have to work through it? Why can't we just sit in it and and I know we hate it, I know it's not, we don't love the feeling of anxiety, we don't love the feeling of self-doubt, we don't love the feelings that it brings. But if we fight it or we try to get through it too quickly, we actually become it's like we we it works against us. Whereas if we just become more familiar with that feeling, we see it as less of a threat, right? So I'm gonna answer this part of this question. Uh let me know if you want me to stop and you have questions about that.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

What I wanted to say is you're making a you're making a huge metaphor here. Like so, first off, there is a stigma surrounding mental health, right? And the idea is band-aid, band-aid, move on, move on. And even like when I was crafting these questions, I have to be conscious to not say, How do we fix this problem? Because it's not a problem, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:57

It's something we all do with it and experience, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Right. And that's part of the stigma that even I, like I said, when preparing a show, I have to say, you know, this isn't a problem. You have to pick your words really wisely here. And then the other thing, too, it's it's kind of like um, I don't want to call them training wheels per se, but you you need to know how to ride the bike, right? You can't keep the training wheels on forever. And and I think that a lot of times it's like we need to help each other as humans understand that these emotions and these experiences are normal. And I wanted to say this too. You we're talking about professional athletes right now. This is any professional in any field, yeah. Right? Some some of the most motivated people I know draw that motivation from an imposter syndrome that is really loud in their head, right? And again, it can motivate you, but they have control over it. Yeah, so please go ahead. I just wanted to add that.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

So that actually leads to another pro another um strategy that I now I'm gonna give you some tactical strategies that like coaches parents.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Everybody listen up.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

This is a good one for parents and coaches. So, okay, I I give you like a little more woo-oo cliche one, but it's that one's very true about why do we have to work through it? Um, because that's in acceptance and commitment therapy. And actually, I have this study right here. They ran a study with pro hockey players in the NHL with acceptance and commitment therapy, which essentially is about like how what are our values and how do we willingly accept the uncomfortable experiences in life? That way we can move towards our values. And they ran a couple studies with some hockey players and found that it was really effective. And that's kind of where I come from with the whole why do we have to work through it? Why can't we just sit in it until it passes because it will pass? But then if you want some tactical strategies, what I would say is this when you have self-doubt as a player or anybody, the best thing that you can do as a coach, as a parent, as uh uh coach anybody on coaching staff is show, like show the player proof. They just need proof. So if you watch film, watch film and be like, hey, this thing that you're doubting yourself and saying you can't do, if you need to have some film in the locker room, like before a game and watch the thing, watch them execute skills correctly or watch them excel at their game, do that. That's proof right there. It's the same thing if somebody goes, um, I can't clap my hands and clap your hands while you're telling me you can't clap your hands, you can do it. It's just the fact that you're it's so easy to come up with these thoughts because language comes easy for us, talking comes easy for us. So I would say show the player proof. Um, you can do that by watching film, you can do that in practice. Another really good way to do this is I have players on their phones download a tally app. It's a very simple, just like tallying something every time it occurs. And like when you go to practice today, when you're whatever you're doing, I want you to tally every time you do the thing you say you have a difficult time doing during a game.

unknown 10:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

I want you to tally every time you say you do it, you every time you execute it correctly. And then I also want you to tally every time you didn't execute it correctly, and then we're gonna get a percentage, we're gonna take a ratio, and I'm gonna say so the percentage, the likelihood that you execute it well, because yeah, not it's not always gonna be perfect. I'm not gonna um you know tell you sweet nothing in your ear because it's not actually always going to be perfect. But if we have a percentage, it makes that worry and that anxiety and that self-doubt much more tangible. Because I could say, hey, like you think you can't do it, but here's the actual proof.

SPEAKER_05 11:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

And it they're and the best part about that is in behavioral analysis, it's a self-monitoring strategy. So the players collecting data on their own behavior. So that's a bit um more tactical, and something that I think is really parents and coaches have great advice.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

No, like you actually I just shared one of your posts about this about you know, show them proof, yeah, that humans hate change, right? Like under understanding these aspects of yourself and your brain and how your mind works is important. And you know, it's funny, you talk about the negative thoughts. I call those saboteurs, right? Um, and how we all have them, they all come from our youth, right? They're developed from from our youth experience. So it's also, I think, important, and you tell me, right, to to acknowledge that, yeah, I am having that negative thoughts, right? To to because to be conscious to them, to me, is a huge first step, right? So when I work with players, and I'm gonna say this again, you are the expert to everybody listening, right? I try and get them conscious to I am having negative thoughts, right? That's what they are, not just let them hijack their mind to the point they can't perform. And I love that you're giving tactical advice of no, you here's proof that that's the biggest takeaway there. Yeah, show them proof, and you can usually do that. And as a coach, they want it from you, right? No, I've seen you do that. I know you can do that.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

It also helps coaches and parents too, because then as a coach, you're actually a little more reassured. You're like, oh, wait, so they can do it this way, right? Probability of the ratio and the likelihood that they actually execute the skill well, and then you can actually use that in your coaching strategy. We can talk about this later, but you can use that in coaching strategy to be like, okay, well, where's player A? Where could they improve and how likely or how uh frequently they execute a certain skill as player B. And then you can even set up your game plan and your strategies and your lineups a certain way and how you run shifts based on those numbers. Like data is so important. And I mean, a lot of scouts have, of course, all met all scouts have data on they have stats on on ice stats, but like this is also too about like off-ice stats and generational stats.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

So it can really help who they are as a person plays into them being drafted or selected, probably as much as their talent. Uh, you know, barring a generational talent who usually is not an a-hole to begin with, right? You know, this stuff, this stuff really matters. Um, so Alicia, I want to ask this question too. I I I'm I'm a sucker for really great wording on things. One of the things I said in the open was uh emotional agility, right? Um, everyone knows what agility is, so we can start to guess what emotional agility is, but I want to hear it from you. What is emotional agility and how can we all work better to achieve that?

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Yeah, it's essentially being faced with psychological injury and not breaking. So it's like being able to bend and not break. So why do players, why do athletes train agility work? They train like laterally and move their movements are different because it's to prevent injury, it's to prepare for the unexpected, it's to move your body in certain ways that are abnormal if you're not a player, but that on ice you may very well have to, and you likely will have, especially goalies, right?

SPEAKER_05 14:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

So there's no holes, and so you can block shots. So essentially, it's about moving your mind and getting your mind used to uncomfortable positions. That's really what it is. Wow. And it's the ability to bend and not break. So can you have an uncomfortable emotional experience? Can you experience anxiety before a game? Can you a lot of players have panic attacks on the ice and don't even realize they're having a panic attack? And it's like, you know, and then there's like second, Mike. Do you have something to say about that? You chuckled a bit.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Because you see it, you you see, like, I don't know. I you you you know one of the things that was I was I was drawn to your your posts and a lot of the stuff you talk about. Um, obviously you're talking uh you're you're speaking to you know, major junior and and and and pro athletes, but I think because of the way we are now, like an older coach like me and a lot of generational coaches that don't understand that these kids are seeing and experiencing the same anxieties and the same uh doubts as pros do earlier and earlier and earlier because they can see it. Like when I grew up, I didn't know even what the next hockey player in the next town did. Like I had no idea. Like I could not see that person failing or succeeding or succeeding more than me. Like I was in my own bubble, like I'm really good. And I didn't see that the next kid down the street was actually better than me because he he didn't have an Instagram.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Well, you know what? That's a very good point. I didn't even I I've thought about that in other ways, but I see what you're saying. So so even just players are exposed to so much in terms of comparisons comparing themselves to other players because everything is out there on social media.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Well, because I mean, and and I think I think an eight-year-old and a nine-year-old is actually comparing himself to Connor McDavid or because they see Connor McDavid doing things, and mom and dad are like, Oh, can't you do that? And then as coaches, we say, Hey, we want you to do this. I'm like, Well, you're not even ready skill-wise to do it, but emotionally, you can't be in a place to fail this much. Like, because we don't, we don't, yeah, you you just said it. We don't coach our we don't coach our players to fail. We don't give them emotional um agility um because we don't teach it. Like if you don't, you can't expect a kid to bend and not break if you don't train them with emotional agility. So to me, it's like it's such a great way to think about we're when we're training our our younger, our youngest athletes. And like I listen, I just worked with you know, quote unquote elite athletes all weekend uh at you know 11 years old and 12 years old. And matter of fact, recently on a podcast, we had Stefan Mateau on who talked about his his own upbringing of you know, never being confident, always being shy, always doubting himself. I mean, here's a guy that that literally won a Stanley Cup uh, you know, on his back. And he's like, I every day I was I I had doubts about what I could do. And until I was able to see those doubts and and respond to them and then work with them and now learn how I mean imagine if he could have worked those out when he was 12 and and 13, 14. And so, like, so I guess my question is what are we looking for as coaches then with this emotional agility? Like, what can we do that can that can that we can quantify on the ice with our players? Like, we have our group of kids, yeah, they're in the locker room. What are some strategies we can give them to build emotional agility that we can actually help with? I mean, I can imagine we could we could hurt it, right? Just like just like a coach that says, nope, there's no water today and there's no time for stretching, get out in the ice and go. Okay, well, then if when a kid gets hurt, whose fault is that? It's our fault. You know, so what you know, maybe maybe a real in a in a you know, without giving the the farm away here, just what can we do a little bit that we can might we should be conscious about when we're talking to kids to allow them to build this emotional agility?

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Yeah, that's a great question. And Meg, I love that you shared all of that because it also ties into I think a question you were gonna ask me, Lee, about what can parents and coaches do? Um with younger youth athletes, too. This is going to be an unpopular response, probably, and it's probably it's not the sexy response, it's probably not the response people want to hear, but I'm just gonna be straight up because this is every single piece of literature and research points to this, and it's even if we didn't have research to show it, we all just know it. As a parent, as a coach, you have to first model it yourself. You have to first model it yourself. We are products of our environment. Children are sponges, so there's a lot of what can we, and I I understand the sentiment of the question of what can we do and what can we give them, but how do you give something if you don't have it yourself?

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Totally agree.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

And and I'm not pointing fingers here, but I'm just saying, you know, no, it's a hard truth.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

That is a hard truth that all of us need to hear.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Because what it does is it requires coaches, grown adults usually, to be like, oh crap, do I actually like do I avoid and try to numb in certain ways, either with alcohol or with distracting myself with work or for by overworking or whatever the case might be? It really requires a hard look in the mirror to be like, do I have emotional agility skills or do I feel very uncomfortable? Do I feel discomfort in the presence of other uncomfortable emotions of other people or myself? So the number one answer would be like and I and the thing is before I say this, the outcome, like the results of that don't seem so obvious, but the return on an investment is undeniable. So it's not as obvious to be like, well, working on myself helps me be a better coach and helps the players process stuff that happens on the ice or have the heaviness of being a pro athlete or an elite youth player better. That's not so obvious, but it's there, you know. So you gotta look for it. And I think it it becomes more obvious over time for sure, but it's often not what we go to as a first-tier strategy because everyone wants these quick fixes. And I'm like, no, dude, you gotta freaking work on it yourself. I like even with scouts, when scouts come to me and like tomorrow I have a bunch of meetings in between, you know, the combine and the draft, a bunch of meetings this week with scouts and just going over things and questions they have and needing support, which is also very interesting. We can talk about that another time. But you know, it's like they're looking for something in a player. But my first question to you is do you have that thing yourself? Because how can you notice it or be aware of it in a player if you don't have it yourself? So, roundabout way of saying first you gotta learn the skill of emotional agility.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yeah, go ahead and no, no, I it you're making me think of Ted Lasso. I mean, that's what the show is about, right? Like, like for those of you who haven't seen it, I'm not gonna spoil anything. Like again, it's a TV show, it's not real, but but it it it really dove into some really real issues. Like the head coach, who's this wonderful person and wants to give all these other players this wonderful experience, is extremely flawed. He has extreme anxiety and he has panic attacks. And I was um I was amazed that the show dove into that because because that's the reality. He had to work on himself. It was one of the major uh functions of the show was that change has to happen if you want to see change. The other thing, too, when it comes to younger athletes, um, and I I want to reiterate what you just said, you cannot give somebody something you don't have.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

And you can't, yes, very much so, and right, and you also cannot identify or assess a skill, an emotion on the ice or off the ice in a player if you don't have it yourself, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:32

In fact, you'd you would be blind to it. Um, and and and this is you know, again, I use the word consciousness a lot, right? If you're not conscious that you have negative thoughts, you won't be conscious that anybody else is having negative thoughts, or you might have a a a weird response if someone's having like, don't do that. And that's your response to it, right? So go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

So I don't know just so much if it's sorry, Mike, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

No, no, no. I'm just I'm just so I'm I'm just trying to I'm trying to like just reflect on you know where did that shift happen? Like, because if you were a Bobby Knight or a Vince Lombardi, or you didn't give a crap about people's emotional stability. Like and and and and I'm like, look, I don't care about my emotional stability, I care about how you perform. I don't don't don't reflect on what I do. I'm telling you what I need you to do. So it's a and again, but we've seen now more and more and more. We just saw it in the NHL very recently, those coaches and those people that are directing the players that are coming up. And I guess my my uh my counter to this would be like, well, the hell with these kids. Like they've got to learn to be like, I'm the head coach. You listen to me, and this is how it's gonna be. And I don't care about your, you know, if you if you can't handle it emotionally, then I've got 16 other kids that can handle it emotionally that that I'll pick. So, but and again, I'm not saying that's the right way.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

I'm just saying but you're talking pro versus youth here, too, Mike.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Like, even but even youth, listen, most youth coaches are dads and moms that are volunteers that aren't equipped with these, uh, you know, all of this stuff. Like they're just like, listen, I know I was yelled at as a kid, and I was coached by a crazy person, and I need to get the most out of my kids, so I'm gonna yell and and scream and put my foot up on the bed. And yell at a ref and throw a water bottle and swear. And I'm going to outwardly show all these emotions, and then I'm going to say to my kids, no, no, no, you're not allowed to take that misconduct. That is that is unacceptable. You can't do that. And like the kids, like, coach, you just got kicked out of like three games in a row. Like, you know, so so what I'm saying is that that shift has happened.

SPEAKER_05 23:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Whether you like it or not, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

So I think you're saying that Mike, there's a I I think you should reiterate that point because I don't think a lot of coaches or parents realize that that shift has happened, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:46

It's happened. It's not, it's not like, oh, I wonder, I wonder if this type of coach will work. No. It doesn't work anymore.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

It doesn't work. And again, a lot of people would argue, and I just saw something the other day, like, are athletes softer? Like a lot of people will say, well, we're catering, we're making it easier and easier for athletes to be emotionally unstable because we're accepting it, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:08

But I want to I want to throw this back to Alicia, and here's why. Because Alicia, you said something earlier that change is extremely hard. And I think that that's the wall that we're running up against here is that you have a lot of you know people with I'd say poor family patterns of you know mental abuse, but that's all they know. And and the problem is it's not a problem, actually. The the reality is kids are more socially aware now than ever. So as leaders, we have to, you know, understand that and learn ourselves. But Alicia, you are the expert. This is your episode. Yeah, I'm just bringing up the question.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

I mean, I'm just bringing up the not even the question. I've never really had a lot of questions. I'm I'm more like venting.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

No, I yeah, Mike, no, it's important, it's not even about me and this is my episode. It's about like what you're saying is really it helps me too, because um you're you're not wrong. I mean, you're right. And uh wait, I want to say something really quick. I just wrote down a little note. You said we said, are we making it easy for Mike had said, are we making it easy for kids to be more emotionally unstable because we're accepting it? About like the whole softness thing that were you okay. So here's what I would say to that. I would say it's always been there. It's always been there. The and it's also not soft. So okay, there's a couple things here. The emotions and the insta, we don't even need to call it instability, we're just gonna call it emotional turbulence. Love it, okay, because instability may I think there's a more of a stigma stigma with that. It's just emotional turbulence, like every freaking person has. Every person has emotional turbulence, right?

SPEAKER_04 25:40

Agreed.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

And when coaches are kicking shit and doing this and doing that, like that's emotional turbulence. They don't know how to manage their anger in a way that is still respectful and probably in line with their values of being a self-composed person or all these kinds of things, right? So to say the whole softness thing I'll talk about in a second, but to say when when people say, 'Are we making we're making it easier for kids to be more emotionally unstable because we're accepting it?' I would say, um, number one, the the it's always been there, the emotional turbulence. It's just a matter of it's never, it's been more acceptable now to outwardly discuss it and talk about it, because not because of the the kids are noticing, like you said, Lee. I yes, that's correct, I would say. But in my opinion, it's also because I think the world is realizing, and especially in the states, because I'll tell you, when I work with Canadian players and players over in Finland, let me tell you how different it is. So there's definitely a United States thing. We that can be a whole nother episode. But uh it's it's a matter of yes, kids are more aware, but I think it's that the world is more aware, the repercussions of not talking about it are detrimental. The suicide rate is highest in men for a reason, right? Because men are told to shove it down, and when you shove so much pressure down in a pressure cooker, eventually it's going to combust, right? And so I think it's not so much about we're making it easier for people to be soft or or kids are more aware. All those things, yes, are true, but I think it's more so we're understanding that it hasn't worked. This doesn't work just because it's gotten us by, it's been a faulty method. That let me just make sure this is clear. Everyone's been doing the best they can so far. Like my, I'm not dating you here, but I'm just saying your generation, you know, I'm just saying your generation of people, my parents' generation of people growing up. It's like that you did the best you could with what you had, right? And so that's fine. And it was also about survival mode, but now we're in a place where we're like, wait a second, can we still have accountability? Can we still have toughness? Can we still have all of these things, and yet still also allow for what just actually is a human experience of difficult stuff? And yeah, we can do all those things because then really quick last thing I want to say is about the softness thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Please, yeah. We hear that we hear that word a lot. We hear that word a lot.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

I'm sure, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Yeah, it's mischaracterized, I think.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

And you want to know the irony of it is this is probably the biggest thing is that the people who say it's softness, I would argue, are the ones who are need this work the most, right? Because they aren't comfortable with the discomfort and with expressing it and talking about it. Because there is a there is great strength in talking about how difficult it is to just be human, let alone a player, let alone a male athlete, let's say, let alone a male pro-athlete with all the weight. And the biggest the best example I think of is this. And I some people might not agree with this, which is everybody relax. It's just an example. You don't have to agree with it. But if you have a woman come home, you have a couple and they're married, and a woman comes home and she says she got laid off, she does not experience as much shame as a man comes home and says he got laid off. That's just the that's just the reality. Because a man is taught in society to be the breadwinner, to be, to take care of the family, to provide. Men carry a heavy weight, right? And so I think that the softness piece is about we can't show any of how hard that is. Now you take that and you take it to these young kids, these young athletes, right, who are playing, and then now now they have a pressure of being human, but the pressure of performing at crazy levels, the game is getting faster, skating is getting faster. It's outrageous. So I want to just make it very clear that I am not for babying and coddling. I I was a gymnast. I had Russian and Bulgarian coaches who my ass. Am I a little story? Like, it was tough. Okay. And I also don't think you get anywhere by being coddled and by having your hand held all of the time.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

I agree wholeheartedly.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

I think you get somewhere and you can actually become a better athlete and optimize your coaching strategy and optimize your playing if you are held accountable and also given the ability, given the opportunity to sit with the discomfort of whatever comes up for you, because that's great strength, then is the vulnerability piece. That is like insane strength. Go ahead, Mike.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

No, I'm just saying it's so funny. We we should have had, we should we're gonna have Caitlin um do a mash of the two episodes we've just had, because if you talk to Stefan Mateau, who we just had on, literally, about his the way he treated his son and the way he treated his daughter, who both played professional hockey. They both end up with the highest levels of their sport, and they were completely coached in two different ways and accepted by him in two different ways. Like he accepted the like like I'm like if his daughter didn't make a team, it was like, eh, it's okay. And try again and don't worry, there's other teams. If your son doesn't make a team, it's like, what, you know, you're you failed at this, you've got to work harder. What why didn't you know? So I think it is it is an interesting uh dynamic that we can talk about to our particular audience because I think what happens is we have girls and boys, uh players' parents, and and we look at and do we need to look at those separately? Or at bottom line is they're the same, they're both human beings, and maybe we have to give a little bit more um, you know, I don't know, like like shelter to the boy side a little bit where the pressure isn't always on, well, even though you tried your best, it wasn't good enough, as opposed to, hey, you tried your best, we're gonna get them next time.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

You know, I want to say a couple of things real quick. You know, you know, one is that we we talk on this show a lot about you make a better person, you're gonna make a better athlete. All right. You know, if you focus on making someone a separate whole person and work on them, they will naturally become a better athlete. I'm not talking skill right now. The other one, too, is that you know, we talk about it all the time. Everyone understands physical endurance, everybody understands physical fitness. You know, you go to the gym, you know what happens when you work out, you know what happens when you don't. For some reason, we have a stigma with our mental fitness, our mental endurance. It's the same thing. You have to consistently work it out, find the plan that works for you, or change it if needed, and you have to continually do it. You cannot achieve mental fitness. You just like you can't achieve physical fitness, you have to continually work at it. Now, I'm gonna make a very sobering stat here. I'm gonna I'm gonna share one. It's extreme. You know, I think I think one of the best teams on the planet is the U.S. Armed Forces. I think they are one of the best teams. All right. One of the things we completely ignore as a society, which is really devastating to me, if you look at the stats of casualties of war or combat and compare it to the stats lost to suicide, they are not even close. And I mean they are astronomically not close. We lose more soldiers to suicide a year than to war or combat by a large number. Now, these are not soft people, but they're losing their life, right? So the point that I'm making here is that we need, as a society, I'm going a little bit beyond hockey here, to really come to terms with what is mental fitness, what is emotional endurance. I agree with you, Alicia, that coddling is a different side of this. Overprotecting is a completely different side of this. But challenging a young man or woman in both of their places of society or anywhere in anywhere in between to be mentally fit is not soft. It is an asset. When you look at the athletes that succeed the most, uh, you know, they all still have doubts, but I bet you today they have emotional endurance. You know, I again we're recording this in the middle of the 2023 Stanley Cup final. I'm seeing a lot of smiles on the ice now, right? I mean, maybe not for Florida right now, being down three to one. But my point is that, you know, they're they're enjoying it. So Alicia, I'm gonna throw it back to you. I just wanted to make those points because because we ignore a lot of the stuff when it comes to this in society, and I think we need to change that.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Yeah, really quick, I'll say to that too. I think what's important for coaches to know, and and parents should know this because it's from what I hear. I I don't dabble in the youth as much, but I've been told I need to. And a really important piece of this is developmentally, there are different stages that children can process certain things. Right. And so I think that is really over. And I would even love to like I'm I'm sure I will end up putting something together for youth coaches and the younger kiddos because it's like developmentally what you can handle and what you can process, because there's certain parts of your brain that have not fully developed yet until you hit a certain age and up until you're up there in age. So I think that's an important consideration too, and also being able to, you're amygdala in your brain, which is responsible for emotion. That part of your brain is not as developed when you're 10 as it is when you're 18, 19. And so understanding what's going on, if you're on the ice, what you're feeling, if you're sad, if you're scared, if you're worried, if you're if your coach just yelled at you, if you're looking to your parents to for reassurance and they're pissed at you, like there's so much there that that's just also important to consider that you cannot give a 21-year-old player and eight 17-year-old player the same thing you're giving a 10-year-old player.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Right. Right, but you can build, but you can build the blocks to that, right? I mean, I think that's the point is that you know, it's just same thing in in just actual skill development, right? With there's a reason why Hockey Canada and USA hockey and and the IIHF have, you know, skill paradigms of you know, where should certain players be at certain points in their skill development. Like you're not expecting a five-year-old to be uh at the same skill level, but they should know how to hold a stick. Like, so so all of the building blocks for that, and I think what we need to do a better job as a coaching society and and the parents along with it, because we are a team, right? I mean, it's funny. We were just talking to some uh family advisors of of uh of junior and and and college players over the weekend. And you know, your family advisor when you're eight is mom and dad, right? That your family is your family advisor. But so equipping your family advisor um and with the the tools and the building blocks first to say, hey, we know where we want to get when we're 18, but this is how you're gonna build all these little things before that so we can handle it.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

I know I gotta jump in because this is what I do, and and Alicia, I'm gonna I'm gonna prove to you that you can do this, and I I think you should because I work, I work with all age groups, obviously, but I do a lot of work with might and squirt age kids. And not only do they understand the concepts of what we're talking about, they are better at it than adults because they're not adults, right? But it's it's how I approach it. I don't go and give a 20-minute lecture to an eight-year-old on mental fitness, right? But I do ask an eight-year-old, what does trust mean? What does accountability mean? Do you have thoughts in your head that are negative? And they're they love sharing, and then we run them through team building exercises. Excuse me. This can be taught now, now the and Mike, you and I always talk about this. It's not an issue, but but the reality is I get my 30 minutes with them and then they go home. All right. So if they're not getting this reinforced at home or in the locker room, yeah, it has the impact it has in the time that it has. Now, I will also say this, and audience, please forgive me. This is gonna sound cocky, but I really don't mean it to be. The teams I work with win a lot. A lot. I'm very fortunate to have been a coach on a lot of successful championship level teams. Not one of them didn't have a great team bond full of players that understood each other and were mentally sound and fit. All right, at least not in my my lifetime. All right, like I said, you go back to the 80s, 70s, 60s, totally different time period. Or I'll should say the late 1900s, as a lot of the youth refer to it as today. Okay. But my point to you is this that winning A is defined, and Alicia, I'd love your thoughts on this. Winning is defined however you want it to be defined. Now, if you're a coach, winning is defined in winning games and winning championships, especially if it's a profession of yours. I get that. But if you can define multiple wins in a season, and I'm talking about, let's just go to the youth level. You know, everyone's a great student, everyone's a great teammate, everyone shakes the refs' hands, everyone is generally concerned or has the aptitude to see that my teammates are in trouble mentally or physically, and I want to be there for them, which is tough sometimes if you have a teenager. All right, those are all wins to me as a coach. Now, in my professional coaching experience, this works as well, right? The difference is, Alicia, and this is where I want to throw it back to you. When I work with professional athletes or college athletes, they've got 18 to 25 years of life built up that we have to uncover. And it can be very hard at times. They might push back, right? So, again, I'm talking a lot now. I I just want to reinforce the point of the work that Alicia does is so freaking important. You must start with you. And actually, Alicia, when I get interviewed a lot, I I will ask the coach questions or the person interviewing me questions about well, do you subscribe to this methodology? If they say no, I probably won't work with them, you know? Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

I think um, you know, there is a lot of emphasis too in like the mental health realm and everything on Instagram and stuff of people talking about their past and their childhood. And as somebody who, you know, I myself did not have a childhood that was ideal by any means. Um, and I think that's why I understand this work pretty well.

SPEAKER_05 39:26

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

Um, I think it's not always necessary because it's hard. Like, listen, coaches have a hard job. Coaches are doing a lot. Also, you have to manage what I hear most from coaches like they have to manage 25, 9, 30 different personalities, then they have to make sure that the the league is happy, that the organization is happy, then they have to make sure the fans are happy and that the parents are happy, and then they have to go home and be a parent or a spouse, and it's like hard, right? It's a really it's a lot, it's heavy. And I actually don't think we talk about that part enough, too.

SPEAKER_05 39:53

Sure, great point.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

A coach said to me the other day, he's like, you know, um, I have to do all this, I have all this pressure, and then you know, when I come home and I I'm grumpy a little bit, it's whether or not like, does my daughter get a grumpy dad, or do the does do the players get a grumpy coach? And usually it's my daughter gets a grumpy dad because I have to be on, you know, but and that's that's something that we need to start talking about more as well. So I think to ask coaches too to sit there and dive into, you know, so much of unpacking a player's history is not exactly reality, but what we can do is we can start talking about relational awareness.

SPEAKER_05 40:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Well, relational awareness is is simply how do you relate to yourself, and how you relate to yourself is often probably how you're going to relate to other people. So if you relate to yourself because you're at war with yourself or you don't like yourself or you doubt yourself, or every time you do something wrong, you beat yourself up in the head. If you don't score this, if you miss that goal, whatever the case might be, how your relational awareness, your relational self-awareness is how you relate to yourself and the things that happen to you.

SPEAKER_05 40:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

And do you make them a thing that happened or do you make them a thing about you? And if we can just kind of start there and that's profound what you just said.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Can you say that again? That was actually really profound.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

I actually don't even remember what I just said.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Yeah, I know. You you had said about you know, is it happening to everyone or is it happening to you?

SPEAKER_02 41:13

Oh, yeah. So it's a difference.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

That's that's really profound.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Yeah, it's the difference between is it a thing that's happening or is it a thing that's happening and you're making it mean something about you?

SPEAKER_00 41:21

Right. And that's also what always happens, and that's Man, we all know someone who does that. Yeah, sometimes it's me.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Coaches do it too. Coaches will be like the team lost, it's because I suck as a coach. It's like, no, dude, the team lost, you know, like it doesn't suck as a coach. There's a million variables going on there. So I think just kind of dabbling into relational awareness, that's that's something that can help profoundly. And um there's something else. Oh, one takeaway, just to kind of bring this all in, is that you know, if any time you're gonna talk to a player, coach a player, or as a player, if you're talking to yourself or you're talking to your coach or if you're a parent, whatever the case might be, the the the biggest thing I like people to focus on, because it is profoundly helpful, but it takes practice like anything else, is to talk about the behavior, don't talk about the person. So if you're disciplining a behavior, you want to discipline the behavior, you don't want to discipline a person. You want to reprimand the behavior, not the person. You want to fix the behavior, the skill on the ice, you don't want to fix the person.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

So you give us like an example of like like what that might sound like, like good and bad.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Yeah, so I mean it could be like you the way you're skating, like uh, or or give me an example of something the way somebody's skating or the way somebody's shooting. So that um your shot you just took was a sucky shot, was a bad shot, right? As opposed to you just made a shot and that shot wasn't your greatest shot, right? That shot wasn't the greatest shot.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

I see what you're saying. So it's not like hey, you suck at shooting, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

It's the fact that if you're a person, so this is also another way of thinking about this is saying a hockey player versus a player who plays hockey.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Because what happens bombs right now, Alicia. This is good, this is good stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Because what happens is then a player I identifies with that, right? And that also is a whole nother thing we could talk about a different time.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

About when it comes to retirement, like they don't know what to do because they're like well, their whole identity is is I'm a hockey player, and they can't break out of it.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

Yeah, so if you think about that with skills, if you're on the ice and you're telling a little kid uh your shooting sucks, you're not telling you know, your uh what whatever you're doing, your skating is too slow. It's like you're a player and you're skating, and you're the weight and your skill of skating is slow. Like, obviously, you're not gonna say it's a one.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

No, no, I see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

Like you're telling me an in-between period speech of your embarrassment to us as in your age group, and that you shouldn't be playing for me is not the correct uh motivational tactic.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

I wouldn't go with that as first choice, but none of you make the team next year.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Okay, I I just heard this. I just heard I just heard it last yeah, literally, I just heard it last weekend. Like, are you kidding? Who uh this these are 10-year-olds that you you weren't in that you all you players embarrassed yourself and the jerseys you're in, and you made me look terrible. And I'm like, going, Oh okay. I I said you're you're as a parent. Now, this is and and I know many parents on this team that actually listen to this podcast, and I'm like, you paid for that person to coach your child, so it's your fault, really. At the end of the day, you knew going in. But uh Alicia, that I mean, it's so funny that you mentioned a lot of this because I I think a lot of the coaching education piece is really starting to formulate to that mentality of don't tell a kid, oh, you know, you can't um when you you went off sides, you shouldn't go off sides again. And then as opposed to, hey, you know, if you pulled the puck back and moved it over here, we wouldn't delay the play. Like it just restructuring the way you're speaking and the way you're talking, and then and then not making it about the player, but about the about about what or more about what happened. Because then it's just like anything else, right? If you say if you're like, don't hit the post, don't hit the post, don't hit the post, you hit the post.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Yeah, and you know, I can if you want, Lee, I can answer some of the questions about like. What are some common coach and coaching staff?

SPEAKER_00 45:17

Yeah, well look, the only one note I'm I want to make on this, I think it's important to hear it like because I'm a parent. Like I make these mistakes sometimes. You know, I think a big hump that I got over was, you know, even when I was younger, I used to beat myself up when I like for for behavior like this, I'd say, like, you did this, and I'd realize later on I shouldn't have said that. And I used to beat myself up, but I've gotten to a point now, I'm I'm more curious. So I was like, okay, you know, why did I say that? What can I like? Like I'm almost doing it inward, right? Like I said this wrong. Like, what's the behavior I want to change? Right. And look, as a parent, Mike, you know, stuff, it's really hard sometimes when uh, you know, when they're poking at you and you're like, just stop. But you know, on the ice, you're making a great point, Alicia. I just wanted to kind of close the loop on this. Is that when you say to a hockey player, your shot sucks, or you're shooting bad, whatever you say, you're also kind of saying you are a hockey player, that's who you are.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

And you are not that, but what you're saying is they are they are bad. So what it is, it kind of enhances and it exacerbates shame versus guilt. So shame, shame is who I am is bad, guilt is what I did was bad.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

So here's the thing people, players do wrong things all of the time.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

Well, the whole game is based on it. The whole game is based off of capitalizing on mistakes.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Well, being a human is about doing the wrong things all the time, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Learning, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:39

But so the difference between I am wrong versus what I did was wrong, right, totally different. So I'm wrong as a player versus the skill that I just executed was wrong, are two totally different things. And I will tell you the most successful players, like I'm obsessed with China's Roger Federer, he but he's messed up, he hasn't won all the time. It's like, you know, that put he's a player who doesn't identify with his faults and his mistakes. So he doesn't tie his self-worth and his self-concept to that. He's independent of it. And actually, and I think the greatest example of this with him is everyone says it. He seems like such a well-rounded individual because he's very involved with his family, he's very involved with his kids and his wife and fashion. Like he has other hobbies outside of tennis, right? And so it's like he's so then if he makes a mistake in tennis on the court, he doesn't identify with that mistake, therefore he doesn't think I am a mistake. And a lot of coaching verbal behavior from coaching is is the biggest, the biggest um behaviors that I see, or the most frequent behaviors I see that could use some redirection, it's too much talking with coaches, too much talking. The verbal behavior that is coming out of their mouth is verbal behavior that's aversive. So, what that means is you want we know from science and research that humans respond better to reinforcement than they do punishment or aversiveness. So if you have all these Oh, wait, wait, say that again too.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

Say that again too. Like that's a powerful statement you just said.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Humans respond better and they will play better if you if they contact reinforcement more than they do punishment.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Then that's proven what you're saying right now.

SPEAKER_02 48:11

It's proven.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

So actually, I mean that's that's amazing when you think about it. You know what I mean? Like how much that happens opposite. Sorry, Elite, you get me.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

Oh, no, it's okay. A big piece of that is coaches don't realize that their verbal behavior can be aversive and punishing. I'll even just give you like a tactical example of this. There was a study done a couple of years ago out in Arizona, and this was with some NHL players, that they actually found that players they shaped up the behavior of shooting a certain way, but they had players shoot and their shot hit the pole of the goalpost first before actually just making it into the net. Excuse my lack of terminology. Uh, but what they found was it was actually more reinforcing for those shots to hit the pole first and then go into the net, because what happens is a player contacts reinforcement sooner because it makes contact with the pole, therefore you know it's going to go into the net kind of a thing if it hits it a certain way. So the same thing is true for verbal behavior. So most coaches will point out, and all most humans do this all the time. We point out what's aversive or what's wrong first. But if you actually don't talk about what's wrong, and you just talk about if you go, hey, yeah, Zach, that was great. Or yeah, shoot that way. That was awesome. What you just did there, do that again. And instead, you don't as frequently talk about the quote unquote inaccurate skills they're executing. Your player, no doubt, I have a I could say this for certain, I'll put my 12-year doctorate on it, will likely increase their skills and their stats and play better. So reinforcement over punishment.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

Reinforcement. Yeah, I'm I apologize, I wasn't trying to interrupt you. Simon Sinek gave that great example of, you know, don't tell your kid not to eat at the living room. Tell your kid, hey, eat at the kitchen table.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

That's a great, there you go.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Right? Like, and and and I am super guilty of that as a dad. I do that. I I'm constantly trying to work on it. But it's like you said, you're reinforcing the right behavior over like the wrong behavior. And I I I and again, it's proven. This is this is proven. It's just you got to be conscious to how you're speaking. Um, and again, look though, I just love this little section we're talking about here. I think it's really profound, and I think it's something that a lot of coaches and parents uh we all need to work on it. Like none of us are perfect, especially when you haven't slept in six days, and you know, you got a lot of going on and work, and like you gave all the coaching examples. Like, you know, I've been in that position, Alicia, where uh it's like I'm gonna be a good dad or a good coach today, and I can't do both. Uh and it's tough. Yeah, it's tough. You know what I mean? So all right, let's I know we want to keep this going. So um, before we get to the the uh advice, this is a question I know the audience is gonna love because at the end of the day, we still want our kids to succeed, all of us, right? Um, skill is a major qualifier for hockey players. There's no doubt about it. You're not gonna get to the next level if you don't have adequate skills, right? But it is just one piece of the puzzle. I know, as you've said on the show, you do work with scouts to help them understand behavior on and off the ice. So, what I want you to tell our audience is can you dive into what aspects you're helping them look for and you know, actions, what can players do? What can parents do listening to help uh uh players improve their mental abilities?

SPEAKER_02 51:20

For sure. So um scouts will tell me often uh we're really, you know, first of all, they'll say, if we're drafting a kid at 16, 17, or whatever the age might be, what do we need to look for to know he's got his head on straight, quote unquote? And what do we also need to look for? How do we know that or how can we predict that four or five years out, he'll still be that way? Right?

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Well, easy, right? Easy.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

That's what I've studied is being able to predict and control behavior. But so I love it, but but no, but still at the same time, even on my end, you know, you never know what variables somebody's gonna come up against, but you can look for certain patterns of behavior. So you can look for data that will likely predict how a player will perform emotionally, mentally, however you want to phrase it, later on in life, despite coming up against difficult setbacks or difficult situations, or even positive ones. You don't want their head to get too big, you know. That's another thing.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

Even kill no matter what, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:24

Yeah. So the biggest thing is I you know, when when um scouts will say, you know, we're looking for, we'll say things like, um, and this is nothing nobody's ever heard before, or this is something everybody's heard before. Um you know, grit, toughness, resilience, mental resilience, um, integrity, all of these things. Well, then when I ask for examples of well, what what does that look like to you? Like, what is that? Essentially it's it all comes down to certain patterns of behavior. Integrity is doing doing what you say you're gonna do. So if you say you're gonna show up to the locker room at a certain time, if you say you're gonna be at practice a certain time, I want you to collect data, is tally the frequency of every time that player shows up when they say they're gonna show up at a certain time. Are they early? Are they late? Whatever the case might be. So it really comes down to breaking these skills or these things, traits, and qualities that a scout says they're looking for into behavior, because that's what everything is, right? So the biggest things though, um, is they're what I kind of advise them is to ask some different questions and to look for something a little bit different that will actually encompass all of those things that they say they're looking for. Two of those things are psychological flexibility and their self-concept, or three of those things and relational awareness.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

What is psychological flexibility?

SPEAKER_02 53:38

Yeah, we'll talk about this. So self-concept.

SPEAKER_00 53:40

Sorry, I'm so curious. I apologize.

SPEAKER_02 53:43

So just to recap, there's three things self-concept, psychological flexibility, and relational awareness. So if I can um assess and we identify a player's relational awareness, that is encompasses what we talked about before. How does a player relate to themselves when they are doing well and when they're not doing as well as they'd like to be? And that will inform how they relate to other people. So, how good of a leader are they gonna be then with our other teammates? How are they gonna interact with coach? How are they gonna interact with opponents? How are they gonna interact with other like with scouts and oh and their agent? Every all of all of that is a lot to handle. So relational awareness will help to inform that. And that's something I'll start talking about more on my Instagram because it's a little bit much to get into right now. Psychological flexibility. If you think about the opposite of psychological flexibility, is psychological rigidity. So when a player before they're about to get on the ice, and this is what every pro player tells me, is like they start to get like anxious, they're amped up, and they have these breathing routines they go through, and there's you know all these things happening. Well, the rigidity piece is not being able to execute skills or engage in behaviors that align with your values because of barriers up here. So because of the rigidity that's going on up here, because of friction they're experiencing up here. Whereas psychological flexibility is I can be flexible despite all of these anxious or overstimulating things that are happening before a game. Because there is a lot of emotion before game, or if a player messes up, this is very common. If I don't even want to say player messes up, but if there's some change in the shift in the lineup last minute, and they were expecting to be in the first, that is like the big we need. I'm gonna do a whole post on that, a whole thing on that, because that is like so anxiety provoking for players. And the the a huge piece of that, sorry, I'm gonna go off on a little tangent for a second.

SPEAKER_05 55:32

Go for it.

SPEAKER_02 55:33

Yeah, coaches need to tell players why. If you're pissed at a player because they're not performing, that's you need to go manage that pissiness on your own, your um, your anger and your bitterness or whatever on your own. And even if you are pissed at them or you're upset, you're allowed to be as a coach. You can be upset, but you cannot withhold information that's going to help the player grow. That's not going to, it's going to help them be the best player and live up in play to their potential. So when a player doesn't understand why they were pulled out of a lineup, that just has a lot of like anxiety-provoking feelings for them. So psychological flexibility is essentially if you're pulled out of the lineup, being able to still execute your skills and play to the best of your ability because you are flexible when you're met with difficult stuff, for lack of better words. And then self-concept is as it sounds, it's how they define themselves. Um, because how you define yourself should remain steadfast and consistent despite how you play.

SPEAKER_00 56:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

That has more detailed parts. It's not that that's just kind of an overview.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

Well, we'll we'll look for your post with that, as you as you said. But you know, you know, the the one thing I was saying is that um, or I was just writing on some notes here. Um, I agree with what you're saying about the coaches needing to or or or they should explain what's happening to a player. What was that?

SPEAKER_02 56:49

Really quick. I don't want to say the word should. I do I hate the word should because yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

Well, what word would you use? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:54

I I would just because should for anybody in any part of their life, it just implies you should be doing something other than what you're doing, and what you're doing is all you the best you can. I would just say it would really benefit teens and coaches if they told players.

SPEAKER_00 57:07

I like that better than what I said. Well, I I was gonna say, yeah, I'll I'll take your cue. It also really benefits players if they're willing to listen. There is another side to this too. That it, you know, I I I at times of my life I was extremely coachable, at other times I wasn't. And it could have been because of ego, it could have been because I was young. But I I think there were times I had coaches that really failed to explain to me what I was doing wrong that would have benefited me. And I also think there was times in my life coaches tried. Um, and I just wasn't I wasn't in a position at that point in my life to listen, right? So I that is a two-way street, right? And and I've explained, especially to uh players in a professional setting or I should say a high level where you know the coach really doesn't have to appease you at that level because there's always somebody else trying to come up, right? And I I explain to players is your coach being hard but direct? Are they giving you the respect of telling you why you've been benched? Because if a coach does that, that's extremely valuable. And I think players can underestimate that at times of if the coach tells you why and gives you action items to improve on that, even if the action item is hey, you need more reps at the lower level, right? You can't just give the middle finger and say you don't know what you're talking about in a situation. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

And I think that's beneficial too. Um as Alicia's saying, that as long as you're building that into who you are as a coach, like you can't like it. If you're just saying, like one day you're just gonna tell a player, you know, why they're not playing, you know, and it comes out of the blue and you've never had a communication with that player before, they're gonna take it much differently than if you're always communicating with your players and saying, hey, this is what's going great, this is what's going, this is where you're struggling, this is where we got to improve, this is why I think you fit into the lineup today. This is where I don't. It comes up with in our in our goalie conversations all the time about do you tell a goalie three seconds before the game, oh, by the way, you're starting by the way. And all of a sudden, all of a sudden the kids like, oh my, or hey, you know what? I thought you were gonna start, you're not starting today. And what that does emotionally to that kid, my grandparents are here, my dad came, you know, I was expecting, I was preparing. Like it's just like it's just like major league pitchers, right? I mean, you can't just say, like, you know, a guy like me says, oh, these guys are soft, you know, they can't, you can't just get in the game. No, it it's a whole routine to play at that elite level, and even to play it at a performance level at a younger kid, it's a it's your routine. It's your it's if we're gonna expect people to have uh emotional flexibility and agility, then we have to let them use that in their normal training mode. And you can't just say, hey, today I'm just gonna tell the kids at the last minute who's playing, or I'm gonna change the way I coach and I'm gonna respect this emotional intelligence out of my players and build it. And I'm gonna start to let them know here's why you're playing, here's why you're not, here's who's playing, and here's why they are, and here's what you can do, all of us can do collectively to get to where we want to be in the lineup. I think it's all these other things where not so long ago, it was I'm the coach, you play when I tell you to play, shut up, see you at the end of the season. And we're and we're and again, we're evolving, and I think, you know, and I think as parents were evolving as well, because we have an opportunity to hear from people like you that have that are doing the studies, that are giving us examples, that are giving us something to think about, and then we can debate whether or not we think it's you know good or bad, you know, depending on what we need, but you can't deny the fact that it's a fact. Like you can't think, well, I don't believe in this. You know, I'm just telling you, I've done I've done 12 years of studying on it. I can help you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:42

Yeah, Mike, but I think it's a wonderful point. And I also think what's really important to what you're saying, Mike, is that it's not gonna be an easy switchover. Coaches, like we also need to be respectful and patient with coaches because it's hard for them, they're doing the best they can. And like I said, they have all these variables, you know, you're a coach, like you have all of these variables you're balancing that you're going to, and I don't even like to say mess up, but like let's just say old patterns. You're going to get back into old patterns, it's fine. You just redirect, self-correct, just get back onto the path with grace. Yeah, yeah, yes, and not shaming yourself for it. And you're you, you know, the job of being a coach is a very difficult one. And so I think that just recognizing that, asking for support where you need it, uh leaning on the support that you have, and and just knowing it's not gonna be easy to because you're right, it's a shift and it's weird shift. Like, like the older shift is like, what's happening? What I have to be, I have to say sorry. Like, I want to use an example, Mike.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:32

The no, the late Pat Quinn is a great example of a coach who did this. So, Alicia, I don't know if if you remember Pat Quinn, but he coached in the NHL for many years, and and he made a decision. I think he was fired or let go by an NHL team, and he made a conscious decision to go coach world juniors on purpose because he said, I'm not in touch with the youth anymore, I need to learn how to do that, right? So, so this is a guy who was making himself, he was a strict coach, and he this is a guy who coached in the 80s and the 90s, and he's from that old school era ex-cop or something, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

Or Baz Pap Doctor.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:03

Yeah, he was the same guy, same type of people intense, all right, and he coached a lot of successful teams, but he he made himself vulnerable there, and like and nobody told the story, which I think is is a shame. But he went down and he coached the world juniors and he got to understand these kids a bit more, and then he went back. So I I just think that's a phenomenal example of someone who was stuck in his patterns. What was that?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:24

Self-correcting, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:25

Right, and again, this is at the NHL level, right? Now, again, he he passed in 2014, so I don't think he even had a chance to use this, probably as long as he intended, right? But but I've always said this as a coach, all right? If you ever feel as a coach you've got it, you know, that's not good, right? Like, like I'm always striving to be better at being a coach, just like I did when I was an athlete, right? Like, I want to constantly evolve. No two teams you coach are ever gonna be the same. You could have the same players on a team every year, every season. It's not the same team because life is happening. And like you're saying, you have to self-correct, you have to, you have to do these things, right? And I wanna I just wanted to make this point again. Look, parents, coaches, and players listening, do not underestimate a coach that is willing to explain clearly to you why the decision's being made or how you can improve. Like Mike, you I'm working with a coach right now, Mike. You know, he's a very strict and intense coach, right? But he he I am so impressed and I respect heavily, he always will go up to a player, no matter how intense the situation is, but it might be after the game, and say, This is why this happened, this is why I sat you, this is how you can improve upon it. There's so much value in that, and I think that that goes kind of under the bridge sometimes of well, you were mean to me, right? And it's like, well, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:52

Well, and the other players see that and they respect that because then they they're learning, they're saying, Wow, this guy really actually cares that I care. Like that, that you know, and that's what you we want. We want players.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:03

It's respect over likability too, Mike. I want to say that too. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:06

No, that's it's awesome. I mean, like I said, I think it's like to me at the in the youth hockey world, like that I'm in mostly, it's it's more about what can the parent and the player do to help themselves rather than what can this volunteer, dad or mom that's only sees them for you know an hour and a half every week, they have less of an impact, right, Alicia, than than like like if I'm like with the players that I work with, I'm sharing your post all the time because it's my with my inside window of like help yourself find strategies that you can use because you can't control at the pro level, and you know, if you're going pro or you're gonna play in college, you can choose where you go to college. You can choose like you're you're part of the process at at major levels, right? And it is a job. I mean, the bottom line is you're you're you're you're it's a job at the youth level. It's like, well, I don't have time to find out what the psychological impact of my coach is. Like I'm I'm I'm just happy the guy shows up. Like, you know, I mean, and so so really the strategies, I think for me, what I'd love to just get out of this last little piece here is, you know, what can we do as parents to advocate for our kids? And what are the strategies we can give our kids that maybe fit into what you do, but understanding that it's with the only thing we can control is our children going to the rink and coming from the rink. I really can't control what the coach is doing to my kid because they're not, A, they're not equipped, they're not educated for this, and frankly, they're not paid for it, right? They're just, they're just they're just like, oh, listen, roll the lines and you deal with your emotional flexibility on your own. You know, so I I guess if if I'm listening to this today, I want to be able to like what's a you know, what's a takeaway I can I can use that I can sit in the car with my kid and and say, hey, this is what we're this is the strategy we're gonna use because this is what's happening to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:57

Okay, and we're talking youth, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:58

Yeah, this is youth. This is not kids that are you know away on with you know with families, they're not building, they're not gonna be around.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

It's just a fourteen room, four team down for now.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:07

Okay, perfect. What you can do is essentially it's like they get in the car, how is practice today? They like kind of start telling them oh it's fine, or whatever, or your app practice, which most parents are, and they because they're kind of intense, but it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

Videotaping. They all have that app you were talking about, that clicker app from before you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:25

You're tailing the wrong behavior, right? So it's like, okay, how's practice today? Or they're like, hey, so I saw coach so-and-so kind of yelled at you today when you're on the ice because of X, Y, or Z, right? And then your kid's like, Yeah, as a parent, you go, that must have really sucked. That probably didn't feel good, you know. And then you what you do is you tell them a time where the same thing happened to you. You go, you know, one time when I was younger, or even just you say the other day when I was at work, you know, my my friend that I work with that I told you about, so and so, like I'm just giving you hypotheticals here. Um, they they said something to me that I didn't really like and made me feel really bad about myself. And that because what happens is instantly your kid goes like this, and they're sitting in the chair and they're they're sitting in the car and they're huddled up and they're like this, like feeling bad about this. Instantly they go, really? Like I'm not alone and feeling what I'm feeling. And that not aloneness, the not being in isolation is the most profound feeling that a kid can feel. Because now what you just did is you opened up the door to they feel so much better about themselves because they don't think something is wrong with them because they know that other people have felt what they're feeling. And remind you, this has nothing to do, it has everything but nothing at the same time to do with the coach's behavior because we can't control the coach, like you said. We can only control how we process it and how we respond to it, right? So it opens up the door for the kid to feel really good about themselves in spite of coaches' behavior because they know they're not alone. And then number two, it opens up the door for them to come to you now and talk to you when it happens again because it's going to for sure happen again, you know? And so it's like, and and I mean, if these are younger kiddos, we're talking when they get into high school, when they're in middle school, when they're dating, when like you don't want them, you if you don't want your kid doing drugs, they're gonna come talk to you about so-and-so had drugs at school or something, whatever the case might be, right? It doesn't matter. This is gonna translate into every area of life, not just hockey. If you can just relate to your child, there's a time to be, listen, I tell parents, listen, you're either the parent, you're not their friend, but you can still be relatable and be a parent. And relatability is what helps us talk about things more and opens up the doors. So they come in the car, you ask them how how practice was, or you you're at practice, you see how it was. Your kitten is not always going to have the verbal behavior, the language to talk about what it so sometimes you're gonna have to give it to them. So that's another thing. Say, did it feel like this? Did it feel like the time when your grandmother did this or when your aunt did that, or did it feel like the time when dad and I yelled at you the other day when you were, or did it feel like this? And you give them words and you try to help them because I think we also forget kids don't know, they're trying to figure it out and they're learning from us, right? So what you can do as a parent to answer your question, Mike, I hope that answered it, is is number one, relate to them, label it for them, and then give them a time in which it also happened to you and give them examples. Does that answer?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:20

Yeah, no, I mean, like I said, and you and you made a great point that you can't control, I can't control how that coach is going to, you know, what that coach is doing. I can I can only I can only help manage all those things that happen. Now, at the end of the year, I can start controlling those things and I can say, hey, we're not really happy with this coach, and we don't like the program, and we can shop around. And we've had these tons of episodes on finding the right program, but in the season, I'm in the middle of December, I'm in January, this is happening. The coach has yelled at my kid again. I can only give my player um the education and and the resources to help that player.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:54

You can yeah, you can only give them the tools to manage it in a way where they don't make it mean something about them. So, in a way where they don't take coaches' behavior and make it mean something about them as a player. They don't take coaches' behavior and they don't feel responsible.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:12

This is like incredibly impactful stuff. Like, I'm sitting here like, like, like you gotta do a watch, I'm sitting here like, wow, these are one of these are one of those, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:21

Let's let's schedule part two because I'm just thinking back on. Yeah, things start coming up that like you go, oh wow, you know what?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:29

I I also wanted to mention, uh, and before we close, because we're kind of running out of time here, that we can reverse this uh as well from coaches to kids with uh parents, right? So, like, you know, we've uh Mike and I have all of us here have coached kids whose parents are insane. It happens. Um, I think it's important to note too that a coach can be relatable to a kid, you know. I mean, look, there are lines you cannot cross. You're not a if you you are not a kid's parent if you're his coach or her coach, but you can relate to them and say, you know, I know when I played, I had a I had a coach or a parent that really was like this and it really made me feel this way. And I and I always like to add this and Alicia, I want you to have the final word here too. Yeah, if if you're the head coach, or it doesn't matter, this is where you can utilize your staff as well. If that's not your style or you're not comfortable, you can you can delegate that to other coaches on the team as well. I think it's extremely important, especially as you get up to higher levels. I know we're talking about youth, that you identify a coach that can relate to your players if you're not comfortable doing that. And if I mean, I hopefully if you're not comfortable, you figure it out. But I I love your thoughts on that from a coaching uh side of the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:38

Yeah, from a coaching side, it's often a need, just a I say a simple need, but it's not that simple. To get comfortable being uncomfortable.

unknown 1:11:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:48

So get comfortable being uncomfortable when the kids are uncomfortable. Get comfortable with their uncomfortable emotions. So, do you know how oftentimes I don't know if this is familiar to either of you, but um, if somebody comes and tells you something that happened or something that's wrong, immediately we start to give solutions and we try to fix it. We're like, well, why don't you try this? Why don't you do this? Why don't you? And it's like sometimes people just don't want to hear that you like to listen.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:11

Yeah, oftentimes I have a real problem with that. Yeah, well, I always want to give advice.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:16

Yeah, well, oftentimes that needing to give advice or fix things is because we can't just sit in other people's uncomfortable emotions.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:24

That's a great point. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:26

So it's not always necessary to give advice or try to fix anything. There's nothing to be fixed, it's just about to sit with it. And that can be really difficult. It's really difficult to ask. I was gonna say, Coach is Mike's age, but I just say hey, Mike is 27 years old.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:40

I don't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:45

Yay, so so I think um, you know, just getting comfortable with uncomfortable emotions of others, especially, and not always needing to fix it. Just let them you just gotta let it because it's part of being a kid too, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:58

That is literally the perfect bookend because that was the first thing we talked about in this episode, too. But Alicia, I'm gonna tell you this. I learned a lot today, and and I love that because we were hoping for that, obviously. We knew that was gonna happen. But I always say, as the host, if I'm learning a lot, that means the audience is learning a lot. You know what I mean? So um I agree with Mike. We're gonna need to do a part two in the future because uh uh you you were that was profound. The things you're saying are truths, right? They're not so much just opinions, right? And these are all based in science. And um reiterate, she has a doctorate in this, my friends.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:34

Yes, let's just say it's you know, of course, I don't know everything, but I I've when it comes to child development and how we interact with others and the way we're affected by things in developmentally children and what we can handle. Definitely like this is my this is my real life for sure. So um it was a pleasure. Thank you. I you guys are fun to talk to, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:54

No, thank you so much. Uh Mike, any parting words before I close this out?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:58

No, I mean, obviously, I'm I'm gonna have to change my bio, my age, but I think I think um but uh no, like I said, I think this is the these are the kind of episodes, like I said, these this is this is our opportunity to kind of dive into a lot of these strategies and uh and opportunities we can have with our kids. And you know, having, you know, I would just say follow your, you know, your Instagram posts are great. Um, you know, the stuff that you do off the like just off the cuff, I think is even better because I think it's just true like a conversation. And I think the people you're working with, uh, you know, obviously, you know, no matter what kind of education you have and what kind of like how much reading you've done and studying, you know, you're living it every day. And I think it just gives us an opportunity to say, oh wow, here's a great experiences that Alicia's having with her current, you know, elite athletes. And we can all look at our 10 and 11 years and 12-year-old kids and say, oh, okay, well, that I get maybe I'm not that far behind, or I'm actually doing the right thing, or wow, I could change the way I'm I'm looking at this in in a in an area. And again, and it is because of generational uh gaps in this is just not the way I was coached. Like I don't remember, I don't remember a coach ever having a conversation with me, you know, up until a certain time. When I played in college and and other uh levels, those coaches became more and more tuned, but maybe they were there because they were so good at it, you know. But my my my Bannham coach could care less about you know what I did after I left the rank, and I think, or cared if I was happy or not. Yeah, I think it's so it's great. No, it's awesome. And like I said, we're we uh really appreciate you being on. We know you're it's it's a challenge to get you out here. So I think it's uh, you know, great for our audience and great for and and hopefully really great for our kids.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:37

Thank you. That's I I care deeply about the development of children because I myself didn't have the best, and I know how profoundly impactful it is. And so I think anybody who's responsible for the emotional well-being and the well-being in general of a child, like any way I can help them, that's what I'm here to do. And I think I'll just say this is my last takeaway coaches, parents, whomever is listening, like you're doing the best you can. I think it's really important to keep that in mind. You won't always be perfect, nobody ever is, but you're doing the best you can, and that's all anybody can ask for. And if you ever do find yourself slipping up as a parent and as a coach to your child, the best thing you can do is just acknowledge that. And that's you know, yeah. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:15

That's great. So, audience, audience, this is what I want you to do. I want you to pause this, go to Instagram, follow her. It's at I'm gonna spell it for you, A-L-I-C-I-A dot n-a-s-e-r. Alicia Nasser. Go follow her, then come back here and give us a five-star review if you like what you've been listening to. Uh, seriously, if you find any value in these podcasts, which so many of you email us and tell us, um, we want to help make it grow. Obviously, the five-star reviews help. Share this episode. This has been a great episode. Put it in your team, snap, your game beats, whatever you use to communicate with your team, Facebook. Share these episodes because we're trying to spread the good word. And Alicia, I'll tell you, Dr. Nasser, I should say, you have been fantastic today. This was a great episode. Um, uh, I again I learned a lot today. We will have you back on. Uh, this is something I I already know we're gonna get emails like you need to bring her back on. She knows what she's talking about. Um yeah, thanks for uh thanks for being here today.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:15

Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:16

All right, that's gonna do it for this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Remember, all the episodes available on whatever podcast platform you're listening in, our kidsplayhockey.com. Everybody have a wonderful day, wonderful weekend, wherever you're at, make it wonderful. We'll see you next time on our kids play hockey. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kidsplayhockey.com. Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops, at When Hockey Stops.com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.