Our Kids Play Hockey
Our Kids Play Hockey is a podcast that focuses on youth hockey, offering insights, stories, and interviews from the hockey community. It provides valuable advice for parents, coaches, and players, covering various aspects of the game, including skill development, sportsmanship, teamwork, and creating a positive experience for young athletes. The show frequently features guests who share their expertise and personal experiences in youth hockey, both on and off the ice.
The show features three hockey parents, who all work in the game at high levels:
- Christie Casciano-Burns - USA Hockey Columnist, Author, and WSYR Anchor
- Mike Bonelli - USA Hockey Coach and Organizational Consultant
- Lee M.J. Elias - Hockey Entrepreneur, Author, and Team Strategist
In addition to the main podcast, there are several spin-off series that dive into specific aspects of youth hockey:
1.Our Girls Play Hockey – This series highlights the growing presence of girls in hockey, addressing the unique challenges they face while celebrating their accomplishments and contributions to the sport. Each episode of Our Girls Play Hockey is also hosted by Sheri Hudspeth who is the Director, Youth Hockey Programs and Fan Development for the Vegas Golden Knights.
2.The Ride to The Rink – A shorter, motivational series designed to be listened to on the way to the rink, offering quick, inspirational tips and advice to help players and parents get into the right mindset before a game or practice.
3.Our Kids Play Goalie – This series is dedicated to young goalies and the unique challenges they face. It provides advice for players, parents, and coaches on how to support and develop young goaltenders, focusing on the mental and physical demands of the position.
Together, these shows provide a comprehensive platform for parents, players, and coaches involved in youth hockey, offering insights for all aspects of the sport, from parenting, playing, or coaching to specialized positions like goaltending.
Our Kids Play Hockey
Inside the NHL Situation Room: A Conversation with Sean Ellis
On this week's episode of "Our Kids Play Hockey," we take you behind the scenes look at NHL operations with our special guest, Sean Ellis, a Vice President of Hockey Operations at the NHL. We dive deep into the mechanics and the thrill of managing the famed NHL Situation Room.
Key Highlights:
- Sean's Hockey Journey:
- Sean shares his personal journey from playing junior hockey in Massachusetts to finding his path in the NHL. Discover the series of fortunate events and the pivotal decisions that shaped his career in hockey operations.
- The Heart of Hockey Operations:
- Get an exclusive look into the NHL Situation Room in Toronto, where Sean and his team make critical real-time decisions on game nights. Learn about the sophisticated technology and processes that ensure the accuracy and fairness of every call.
- The Evolution of NHL Rules:
- Sean discusses significant rule changes over the years and how they've aimed to enhance player safety and promote the skill aspects of the game. This segment provides a deeper understanding of the ongoing efforts to improve the sport for players and fans alike.
- Challenges and Integrity in Officiating:
- Explore the complexities and challenges faced by NHL officials. Sean explains how decisions are made with a high degree of integrity and based on clear facts, aiming to leave no room for doubt in the fast-paced environment of professional hockey.
- Advice for Aspiring Hockey Professionals:
- For those looking to enter the hockey industry, Sean offers valuable advice on the importance of work ethic, well-rounded skills, and the commitment required to succeed beyond just being a player.
Thank you for tuning into this week's enlightening episode of "Our Kids Play Hockey." With Sean Ellis providing a rare glimpse into the critical operations at the heart of the NHL, we've gained invaluable insights into the dedication and precision that guide the sport at its highest levels. Sean's experiences remind us of the relentless pursuit of fairness and excellence in hockey, highlighting the importance of passion, perseverance, and integrity in shaping not just a career but the future of the game itself. Whether you're an aspiring professional or a lifelong fan, this episode offers lessons and inspiration that transcend the ice.
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Hello hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, powered by NHL Sense Arena. I'm Lee Elias, with Mike Benelli and Christy Cash in our burns, and our guest today is someone that I guarantee every hockey fan in the world has wanted to meet and ask questions to. Sean Ellis is a vice president of hockey operations for the NHL and spends game nights managing the NHL Situation Room in Toronto yes, that Situation Room. In short, when you're watching a game and they say they're going to go check this out in Toronto, you can be assured they're talking about Ellis and his team. Sean is also an extra special guest for me today, as he and I both started our post-hockey playing work at the NHL headquarters in New York City just before 2010. Sean and I remember we had a mutual respect for each other immediately the day we met. Fifteen years later, I can still feel that today. I love seeing that we're both still heavily involved in the game. Sean, welcome to Our Kids Play Hockey.
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks so much, Lee. I'm really really happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Hey, we're happy to have you, man. This is kind of a little bit of the inside the NHL moment for everybody here. I can hear our audience screaming ask this what about this goal? But let's start where we usually start. Sean, you may work in Toronto, but you're an American and usually, and usually, that's the opposite on this show. So tell us about your hockey beginnings and how you got into the game.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah. So I was born and raised in Springfield, Massachusetts, Played junior hockey in the Eastern Junior Hockey League from 2000 to 2003. And then I went to, I was accepted to Amherst College, played my hockey there. When I graduated I signed a minor league deal with the Corpus Christi Rays in the Central Hockey League.
Speaker 2:But after you know, I was put on waivers and decided to try to pack that in and go about finding my big boy job, my career, and through a series of fortunate events, I ended up getting an opportunity to work with the NHL in New York, as you said, and where we met and was there for three years and after that point I was transferred up to the Toronto office and, again through another series of fortunate events, found my way into hockey. It is that, but it's also hard work and dedication and doing extra work, showing people your value, and so I don't want to say, you know, I walked into a job Like, I think I earned my way into into the job, Um, um, and you have to earn your keep every day, Um, yeah. So I think that's that pretty well sums up my my journey to, to where I am today.
Speaker 1:I'm still looking for my big boy job. Maybe one day I'll I'll find that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's magic. If you're still looking, then you're in the right place, right?
Speaker 1:Right, there's a quote I always say don't grow up, it's a trap, right. But one of the cool things, sean, about working in hockey is, I think we're afforded the opportunity to kind of think that way, even though it is work. But one of the things I remember about you because, if I'm not mistaken, I started just a few months before you, but your passion for the game was evident. I mean, we connected on that right away. You could just feel the love for the game and it goes to show you you know, especially the listeners out there that the passion and love for the game transcends playing heavily.
Speaker 1:Right, and I'm not even just talking about play, I should be talking about fandom too. Right, that that if you love this enough, whether you're a volunteer in the game or you actually work in the game, it transfers over pretty easily. So when you say a series of fortunate events, I'm going to echo what you also said you worked hard, you wanted this and the passion for the game. It hasn't died in me at all. I know it hasn't died in you at all. So I just wanted to echo that because I think that's a really important part of the puzzle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I mean I say this a lot too like there are a lot of people that are passionate about the game, um, and you know, know their various aspects of the game really well, um, but that doesn't mean you're well suited or would be well suited to to work in hockey. Like you need that extra thing, um and um. So it's really just a like I I, when I talk to people about about this, I say that all the time is like when they're looking to get into sports, it's like you got it. You got to know more than just the sport. You have to have the work ethic, you have to to round yourself off really well, because it's not just gone. Are the days where you step off the ice and you just walk into a job in hockey are the days where you step off the ice and you just walk into a job in hockey.
Speaker 2:But also you can't just be super intelligent and walk your way into the, into a job within the game. You have to be pretty well-rounded, in my opinion, so, but at the base and the driving force of that I think does need to be a passion for for the sport.
Speaker 1:That's a great point.
Speaker 4:I'm dying to know about the situation right now. That's the journalist in me. Tell me what that's like, the situation room, oh, my goodness, I can't even imagine yeah it well it's.
Speaker 2:You know it's not lost on me how, how special it is um, it's a. It's a fantastic group of guys that that I I'm fortunate to work with um and to be a part of that team that that ultimately makes decisions on on on goals, on video reviews, high stick talks, kick pucks, batted pucks you know the coaches, challenge for goal, interference, offside plays, uh, missed game, stoppage, events like. To be part of that group of guys that gets to like really drill down in the details of those things and then make, ultimately make a decision is pretty special. The technology that we have in the room, I think is is a marvel, um it's, it's really allowed us to make decisions in um. You know a relatively short amount of time. I know for fans in the arena it seems like an eternity and at home and you're often just sitting there waiting, like maybe initially you don't even know what we're looking at, but the technology that we have to get to those decisions pretty quickly is is something to see and you know. So you know we have a pretty good process.
Speaker 2:We have a good group of people with with uh some great experience um that, both in the NHL, um as players as coaches, as managers, and then people like myself coming through through the game in a different route. Um, you bring a different perspective, um, and knowledge of the rules, and so really, you know we're we're watching every single game in real time. We have somebody that's dedicated to that game specifically, or to a single game specifically, and then a group that oversees everything. So if there is an event that happens in one game, we we move to that game too, so that one person is responsible for knowing the details. There won't be a person out there that knows the game, that particular game, better than this one person, and so it really is a team effort. You rely on that person doing that game to raise any issues and to identify any potential issues, and then we need the group of guys overseeing everything to work in concert with them, as well as the referees and linesmen on the ice to come up with a decision on a play.
Speaker 4:Y'all need to be well-oiled machines, obviously. I'm just curious about the technology. Is it more than cameras and just playbacks?
Speaker 2:yeah, so we have, we, we have, um, a system. Hawkeye is the, the, the software that we use. They're the company that does the tennis animation that you see in their tournaments, um, and they created a version of software for us, specific for us, and it amalgamates, uh, 17 different views. So 15 of those would be yes, they would be unique cameras that are either positioned, say, on the blue lines, or we have two cameras in the crossbars of each net. Um, so four cameras in the crossbars of the nets, another in-net camera, a camera over the net, and then we take the feeds from the home TV production and the away TV production or the national TV production, and it all, it amalgamates all into this, this program, and then it allows us to manipulate the video, to go frame by frame, to zoom in and to really get to again drill down to the details and, to the best of our ability, make a decision on a play. So, in concert with that, we have communication to the arena. So, as Lee was saying, when the referee puts on the headset, they're talking directly to us and when they pick up the iPad, the video that they're seeing is being sent from us in Toronto to their, to their iPad. So you know, we've, like you say, christy, it is a very well-oiled machine.
Speaker 2:At this point, and though not without its controversy, we don't necessarily feel that we make our decisions what we think is based on fact and on what we can prove to be true. And sometimes I know that can be frustrating, where you're sitting at home and you're saying, oh, that's clearly offside, and for us we might have that instinct as well. But then we have to go the step further and say can we prove that it's offside? And if, if you, christy lee or mike were, were the general managers of that team, could I go up to you and say, see, this is why this is offside. And if there's any doubt in our minds we won't, we won't do it. Um, and I think it leaves a some. There's a lot of plays where it's even a little bit frustrating for us, where we don't get that, that clear enough detail that we need, or we feel that we need to make the decision, and you walk away from it feeling like I'm 95 percent sure that that's offside, but we can't prove it.
Speaker 4:Even with all the different camera angles.
Speaker 3:And the guy in section 306, too, thinks it's on-site and he saw it.
Speaker 2:He was there, he saw it, and I was just waiting for his message, and then we would have been able to make our decision.
Speaker 4:The guy's always sitting next to me and every day, yeah yeah, I have to tell you, but I guess my head just exploded when you explained all the technology involved. It's kind of like a techno geek here, but I'm just I'm kind of surprised that even with all that, that you can once in a while still have a doubt, a question. Really, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, like, if you think about, you know, I have to follow these the steps here a little bit but we have cameras that are directly on the blue lines but, as we all know, as players are entering the zone they sort of stack up, they're trying to time their entry in.
Speaker 2:So when you're looking at it from the side, you might be trying to look through three or four bodies to see the, and then we have one on the other side that can be obstructed as well, and then we have a camera, we have cameras on the other side that can be obstructed as well, um, and then we have a camera, we have cameras in the scoreboards that shoot down, but there's an angle there and it's the parallax, and so what may look like the puck is over the blue line, um, isn't necessarily true and we can't really use that to as proof because we know that that angle can be deceiving. Yeah, um, and then, and then, as you know, like, if we go to goalie interference challenges, um, or or maybe more appropriately, a puck over the goal line, um, you, you know, like, watching the game today, there are so many times where you see six, seven, eight, nine players in the crease. Just flailing around and just to find the puck can be difficult, yeah, let alone then figuring out. Did it fully cross the goal line?
Speaker 4:someday we're gonna have camera ships in the skate blades and in the box yeah, yeah and you know, what?
Speaker 2:yeah, you know, and that's that's where we get the most flags, like flags Like why don't we have like a goal line technology and we certainly have looked into it and it's just not at a point where anybody's really comfortable that we would be able to say with a high degree of certainty that what we're seeing is, or what the data is showing you, is true. The margin of error, I guess, say is, is too great at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, I want to jump in here too, because this is something that I know from working in sports. So sports fans and this is not a shot tend to see about three or four inches in front of their face when it's especially when it's their team. I always like to take a macro approach to things and and I gotta say this, we we're talking, sean, most likely hundreds of an inch, you know, tens of an inch margin of error when you're watching for an offsides or a goal right, or or you literally can't see it. I take a step back and watch an umpire have a ball go six inches outside the strike zone which we can see and call that a call that a strike, the strike zone which we can see and call that a strike right. So when you look at the other sports right now and you look at A, the speed of hockey, I mean it's so fast at the NHL level. I mean I really sometimes don't think people realize how fast that game is moving. And then you compare it to the NFL, nba, mlb I'm biased, but I'm going to say it we have the best officials and officiating in sports.
Speaker 1:When you think about, like I said, you're 95% sure and you're talking about the smallest amount of room. I don't think the other sports can say that. I mean, in basketball we see blatant fouls, called or not called, in the NFL. I don't know how many more rules they can make about catching a ball or hitting a quarterback, and then the interpretation of that and this isn't a shot at the the officiating in those sports it's just different. And then baseball has its own sets of challenges. But when it comes to hockey, I mean I think you, you guys, get it right all every time. I mean, and when it is one of those, we can't prove it. I think most people, unless it's game seven of a cup final, most people are nodding their head of like, okay, I can see why they would make that call. But I got to shout that out because when you have a margin of error that small, that's a blessing in a game that's moving faster than every other game that I just spoke about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. It is and I think you know, I think we're, we we are always endeavoring to get as close to perfection as as you can. But inherently in video review and what we do and what all the other major sports leagues do in their review process, it's a it's an impossible thing to to attain, however the the uh fans believe and, um, when something does go to review, it's black and white. There is a right and wrong answer and it's unfortunately just not the always the case in. In many instances it is, but it's not always the case. In many instances it is, but it's not always the case.
Speaker 2:But the expectation is that it always is, and that's where we catch a lot of our flack and you know we don't have a problem with it. You know, like we have to make difficult decisions and, again, we know that we have to defend it. We're accountable for those decisions and, um, and a fan at home isn't necessarily accountable. But if, if you lead, like you said, take your macro, look at something, you, you, if you're looking at it objectively, um, and as fans, you can't always do that if your team is evolving, we love, we love the passion of the fans. That's great. Hold our feet to the fire. We love that. But if you're looking at something purely objectively, I think more often than not you can say, yeah, they made the right call there, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the advent of this technology right has made it so much, I think, harder for officials, because everybody in the arena sees the play. You know it at a very slower motion than it happened and it's easy to make a call, like when it's going. You know three tenths to speed, you know just tiny little fractions of a second. So let me ask them what, because you mentioned that, what you know, the collaboration between the official on the ice that made the call and the situation room, how much, how much influence does an official have back to the room when they're looking at that iPad with you? I mean, is there a true collaboration there? Because we all know the officials are probably against one of the teams, right? So they don't want one of the teams to win. So I think so. So we we have to know how much really say that they have in that process, because there are boots on the ground uh, tremendous amount of say.
Speaker 2:I think, um, the the basis of the review is based off of their original call and um, and when we're reviewing it, we asked for their, their input.
Speaker 2:What were you seeing here, given their position on the ice, and what was your judgment? And it really I can't stress it enough it really is a collaboration and I think more often than not, you know, a referee picks up the iPad and a lot of times when you get to a challenge, it's a team questioning, essentially questioning their judgment. Right, they look at it and they say, oh, wow, you know what? I didn't see that from, from my view. So they're they're very quick to to own up and and own ups maybe not the right way to put it, but to to say when they had a piece, they're now seeing a piece of information that they didn't have when they made their original call and they're happy to. At the end of the day, everybody wants to get it right. An official doesn't want to, you know, walk away at the end of the game knowing that they messed something up. It's and they're in the same boat, right, sean?
Speaker 3:I mean, they're at the blue line making a call and there's four 6'4", 230-pound men skating by them, right? So how hard is it to make all these calls and worry about getting hit and worry about? There's so much going on where I think the video review is great when it's used. If you're going to use it, go all in, right. I mean, and I think that's where we are at the youth hockey level, it gets frustrating, right? Because parents think that everything's reviewable. I'm like, just because it's on live barn doesn't mean it's reviewable, like there's no reviewable system.
Speaker 1:So the call is the call.
Speaker 3:Thank goodness for that by the way mike, oh yeah I can't tell you how many parents have come to me after games with the clip of the goal.
Speaker 2:Did you see this?
Speaker 3:Did you show the official list? I go. It doesn't even matter if I show the official list. I said there's no youth hockey situation room in Colorado, it's just what it is. So I think that's where we all have to when we talk about this. Sean, all the time on the show is there is such a stark difference between a professional official that has her life depending on it really, I mean, their livelihood is this job and the 13 year old kid that's missing it off sides that our expectations have to be like listen, you have a situational room with 17 cameras, with sensors, with this, with collaboration, I have a 13 year old kid that's getting yelled at by a bunch of adults.
Speaker 3:So yeah I think it's just one of those things. To lee's point the, it's so great to see how these officials conduct themselves at the highest levels of the game, even with all that scrutiny there and uh, and most of the time it is right. I mean, whether you like it or not, you know, sometimes they're like, oh, I can't believe they made that, I can't believe they got that call. It was a good goal.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that's a different story altogether. It's, it's. Yeah, I was saying the other day, yesterday, at my son's drought, I was talking with another father and they're saying, like we lose all perspective the moment we walk into the rink of our kids. Um, our kids events, you know if it's a tryout or if it's a game of practice, like all logic goes out the window. Um, you know, for some reason it's just the. You know, you enter into the, the twilight zone there, if you will, but, um, our officials are, are great.
Speaker 2:Um, the, the game, the speed at which it's played, as you guys were alluding to, it's inherently. There are going to be mistakes made. And we're talking right now, it's the first round of the playoffs and never is that more apparent than in the first round of the playoffs or in the playoffs in general. And never are our officials or us in the situation room more critiqued than we are right now. Inherently, mistakes are made on the ice and it happens, but it's not just by our officials. The players make mistakes, the coaches make mistakes, and yet the officials bear the brunt of that anger and us when it comes to review that anger. And and and us when it comes to review, though. That being said, there are a number of individual players right now getting hammered pretty hard by the media for their lack of performance, if you will. So no one's no one's escapes the, the criticism, but but yeah, it's, it's.
Speaker 2:I think our officials do do a tremendous job. And and a little bit about the process. Like before the coaches challenge was instituted, we spent probably a full year, for sure, and maybe even a little bit more, tracking all plays that were goals, that were scored, where there was some sort of contact or traffic, even around the crease, and all plays where a goal was scored and the entry into the zone was close. It was either clearly offside or it was like really hard to tell, or there was some element of control. As you know, we allow for a player to enter the zone with control of the puck if uh, and cross the blue line before the puck, um, which is unique for the nhl versus youth hockey, um, and so we we looked at all of that and the amount of times that our officials got it right was, um, pretty surprising, even for for us.
Speaker 2:Um, they're they're so good at making these judgments in real time and I can't give them enough credit for that, again, mistakes happen. They're not going to be perfect, but the degree at which they do get it right was pretty surprising and eye-opening, I think. So, really, when we get down to it, we're only ever really discussing or we're most often discussing judgment calls, and you can question the judgment of the officials of us in the room. But the point of having the review system the way that we have it is that the same group of people make the decisions on all. So we might be wrong in your view on a play, but we're probably then going to be consistently wrong because we have the same people looking at it. We don't think it's wrong, we think it's right, but you get the point that we're consistent.
Speaker 3:You're in your interpretation, right. I mean, like, when you like, I think what's the most, I mean what would be the most controversial one right now? It's probably. I mean like that fine line of goalie interference, right? Like, if yes, is the goalie truly interfered with? Was the defenseman pushing the forward into the crease? Was the, was the? Was the goalie even going to be able to make the save anyway? Like, and that's such a hard thing, right?
Speaker 3:because now you see, like you start seeing like a kid, like the kid from the panthers make that save the other day. Uh, you know behind you like well, that's an impossible save, so it doesn't matter if somebody was, you know, in his crease. But yet you have to make those calls and I guess to your point, like once you kind of establish, it's like good officials right at the beginning of a game, once they've kind of established the game, like this is what I'm gonna like, you know, just like a, an umpire with strike zones in theory, like, okay, this is the strike zone. It might be a horrendous strike zone to the team, but this is the strike zone we've decided.
Speaker 1:As long as it's consistent, right.
Speaker 3:And then the players have to play within that context.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, that's right. You as the player have to adjust to that set of circumstances for that game. Right, you as the player have to adjust to that set of circumstances for that game. I remember in college, as a captain, before the after warm up, before you went back to the dressing room, you met with the referees at the referees crease and they would tell you I'm going to be real tight on hooks to the hands or whatever it was. And then you went back to your team and told them what was said. And then, you know, you might not get along with that official, you might not agree with their standard, but your job as the player is to adjust to that and play within the bounds of that.
Speaker 2:It can get tricky if the standard switches over the course of the game in your opinion, but the referees are doing the best that they can to uphold that standard and and or and stick to that standard and I think they do a really good, good job of it. Maybe, you know, don't get enough credit, but but that's the nature of the job and that's what they, you know, that's what they sign up for. You know, and and again, again, to go back to like having the same group of people make these decisions. Um, you know mike to your point about. You know you've had like, yeah, you can come as christy as you did, you can come with the live barn video and show, and it's like sure, but but, um, you show it to mike and he might have one interpretation, lee will have another, I might have a different one, and you don't want to have all these different standards floating around out there.
Speaker 4:Exactly, but I slow-mo it.
Speaker 3:So, you know, my video. So obvious.
Speaker 4:Well, let's talk about you, Ty. You've got two littles. Now you have a four-year-old and a nine-year-old, and the four-year-old's about to really get into it. Your nine-year-old is already in the thick of it and you know, you've been to games and you have. You have to admit, our local refs take a lot of heat and parents in the stand can be super hostile. You know name calling and you know the whole nine yards um.
Speaker 4:So let's to put it gently, I won't talk about the fistfights that I've witnessed but anyway um so, yeah, it's, it's tense and, like you said, it's almost like bizarro land when you you step into that and people kind of lose their common sense. So I would love for you to talk to paris I mean, you're on the highest level of making these calls Talk to parents directly about those dicey situations where they kind of lose control.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean again, like I mentioned before, you know, nobody a player, coach, referee wants to walk away from a game knowing that they made a bad mistake. They all are trying to do their best all the time. As Mike said, you might have a 13-year-old kid refereeing a game. That kid doesn't want to mess up a call, he wants to get it right. Maybe this is what he's interested in making his career. He wants to do the best, or she wants to do the best that they can do.
Speaker 2:Um, and I think we would do well to to maybe give them a little bit of deference, even as a 13 year old young person, starting off of their, their, their career. Give them the respect that they deserve. There aren't a lot of people signing up to do that job and we don't really help our cause if we're so harsh with that kid, or even if it's an adult, we're so harsh with them. We're not encouraging more people to come in to do that job and then, therefore, we we're making for the future, we're making it more difficult for ourselves. We're not going to have that, that competition amongst the, the, the officiating pool of people to to get the best talent. We're just getting whoever's willing to sign up.
Speaker 4:Yeah, excellent points.
Speaker 2:I don't think that we're fair. Again, we lose our objectivity, logic goes out the window, and I get it, I get it. We're never more passionate about anything in our lives than our kids. And maybe I feel, maybe I'm fortunate because of what I get to be part of, what I do for a living. I, I feel I have a pretty strong sense of objectivity and and perspective.
Speaker 2:Um, and I wish you know so, I, I have to put that into practice every single day and I carry that into the rink with me. I know where my, where my kid stands in the packing order, and it's okay. Like we're not always victims, you know, like sometimes your kids make mistakes. Um, they're not always the superstar on the ice, maybe they're never the superstar in the ice, and that's okay. But, um, I think we would do better to, like you know, continue focus on your kid and and wish them all the success and hope that they continue to improve as the course of the season goes on, as the course of their careers go on, but know that your kid's not being held back because a 13-year-old referee made a tough call.
Speaker 4:Now when your 9-year-old gets to be the age where they can ref, would you be okay with that? Would you encourage them to do that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a great career path. I mean, especially at the NHL level now where our director of officiating he's actively recruiting all the time. There's referee combines. That they're looking for talent everywhere and they'll approach people. That they're looking for talent everywhere and they'll approach people. They're not beholden to pulling people from a system. You have to work your way up through a minor hockey system to a junior hockey. If they feel somebody could be a good referee or linesman, they'll go for it, they'll go after them.
Speaker 2:So we've had guys that are currently in the NHL that literally came off the ice as a player and in the very next season we're reffing at the professional level, Not at the NHL but at the professional level, having no other refereeing experience. We all know the rules. Players think you know them. As a player, you think you know the rules really well. You don know. As a player, you think you know the rules really well. You don't. But or well enough, I should say but you can, you can learn that.
Speaker 2:But what's hard to teach an adult is how to skate and how to be able to read the game and understand positioning, like those things are sort of innate. Things are sort of innate um. So if they identify that within an individual, they'll they'll be more than happy to work with them and try to encourage them and foster that talent to get them to the level. So if my son, either of my sons or both, want to do that at some point, yeah, absolutely, I'd encourage it and I, I, I would hope that that parents, when they're at a game, can remember that that's somebody's son or daughter that they're yelling at and even if it's an adult, that's somebody's father, husband, wife. You know, it's all about perspective. And a nine-year-old my son's nine. He's going to be playing under 11. I think I have a pretty good perspective. We're not talking about the NHL here. We're talking about nine ten-year-old kids and they still go to bed with their stuffies under their arms. A little referee plush, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:A little Kerry Frazier.
Speaker 1:Sean, I want to say a ton of notes here, but you know, when I coach and this is something I'm speaking all the coaches out there and the parents, um and this is from pro down to might I have very low tolerance for my players, uh speaking hostile, hostile. Hostile to a referee, um, because, a I think it's far outside their control, but B and Mike, you just brought up Kerry Frazier, you know. He was on the show and really opened our eyes up to a few things and he talked about you cannot beat the opponent and the referees and win a game. It's. You can't fight both of them. And I always remind my teams the officials are a team too. There are three teams on the ice right, and if you're yelling at them and ripping them and parents, this is for you too. It's not going to work in your favor.
Speaker 1:You know, one of the things I say when I work with teams are the hardest thing to do in team sports, in my opinion, in hockey, is they get a 60 minute mental and physical perfect effort. It's the hardest thing to do. Yet we expect that from every official, from the age of nine to 99, that they are Hawkeye-ing everything all the time, and we're human beings. So do refs miss calls at the youth level, 100%? Do they daydream? At the youth level? Most likely. I mean not supposed to, but we're human, right. So I always try and remind players and parents that have, like you said, they're doing the best they can. They're a team too.
Speaker 1:Or I've had referees come up to me say point blank parents, you don't hear this. This kid with me today, it's his first game ever and he's trying to learn. He's going to do the best he can, which I encourage every official to tell the coach that, right, but he's going to make mistakes. It's a team. We're working with them to teach that kid to be a better official, right? Also too. Listen, I have a business idea. I wrote this down. Guys, we're going to be millionaires on this. We need to create our own situation room for youth hockey. I have it down here. All we need is 60,000 volunteers to help us watch the games.
Speaker 4:But we'll have our own situation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, no, I tied it to my hockey rankings and people can upload videos. We're going to make this work.
Speaker 1:Sean, we need to borrow a few of those nets. I don't know if you have like 50,000 of them available with all the cameras, but we can do this.
Speaker 1:We can review every goal, every stat. No, I'm bringing this up for the youth parents. I do want to talk about youth and, sean, I do want to go back to the situation room at some point to talk about some of your other responsibilities, but I want to impress upon the listeners, parents especially, that I know you're watching the game and I know you want your kids to win, but I want you to listen to what Sean says. It takes to make the right call at the NHL level. Which game is faster than your game? There are more people on the ice watching that game and the players are the most talented at a game and they still need all this technology to do the best that they can, and thank goodness that we have that.
Speaker 1:Give these refs a break at the youth level. I think you said it right that that you know they're trying to do the best they can look. Sure, you're going to get ego in this game every once in a while. And my question to the kids and this is another point I'm trying to make to the parents whether I'm coaching or it's my kid Well, he missed that offsides call. Right, the worst thing you can do is kind of continue to enable? Yeah, yeah, they did, they suck and they ruined it, and they the whole game now is ruined because of that offsides call, when the response really should be maybe yes, maybe no. What are we going to do about it? What are you going to do about it? How are you going to respond to this adversity that we're facing now? Cause I can tell you right now, parents, there is no game and coaches won or lost on one bad call. It does not work that way. All right, it's unfortunate, and you get bad breaks.
Speaker 1:Sean, I used to say if you want to beat the refs, score more goals. That's what I used to say to my players. But you've got to be able to take the ego out of this a little bit, and I think that's how I'm going to round this out with you. Sean, in terms of this question is that, from the situation room to the officials on the ice, to the officials in youth hockey, you have to be able to remove the ego out of the situation to make a call. You can't look at it like oh, I was a fan of this team, I'm not a fan of that team, I'm from this town, I'm trying to make. You have to remove that and just look at it black and white to the best of your ability. This is my judgment, this is my call right, that removal ego is key.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because I think I think it is. And again, we are professionals. We don't want to go home at the end of the night thinking we did something improper, inappropriate. We, as much as we might like or dislike individuals, teams, whatever, our goal is to get the call right. Our objective is to get the call right and we're going to do that with using the best judgment that we can to do so. You know, we might again not get it right in your minds as fans, but we're working with the information that we have to get to that decision.
Speaker 2:I think that you know, you as fans, with all the different TV angles that they show, you're not working off of zero information. You have a lot of information too, and so if we went and did something completely off the wall, you would be able to see that right. So we're accountable not just to the teams and the players involved in the game, we're accountable to our fans, and you can hold our feet to the fire because you can see in many instances, same thing that we're seeing. We're just using our judgment, our experience, our knowledge of the rules and, more importantly, how those rules are applied to the game. Um, and so you know, I think. I think it's. It's an important um point to make you know, like you're watching a game, watching your kids game, you have a lot of the same information that that referee on the ice has. Um, they're just imparting their judgment. They have the ability to impart their judgment on the play and and make a call that they make.
Speaker 2:Um, when you, you get preoccupied with the, the missed offside call, um to your point, you're, you're not just playing the other team, you're not playing the officials too, and you've lost, you're, you've lost the game. At that point. If that's your concern, if you feel like a single call has ruined the game for you, I hate to tell you, but you lost the game well before that same attack. Well said, yeah, and in fact, like you know, more often, most often overwhelmingly, it's a player's mistake that leads to a goal, that leads to a game being lost, right? Um, a coach's mistake. Like a referee, might you make a? Uh, an alliance makes a tough offside call. Um, a referee makes a tough penalty call. Like, what do you say when? When that happens? Like, well, we gotta, we gotta kill, we got to kill this penalty. And then you, you move on. Right, if I'm so preoccupied about that one call your. Your perspective has been lost, and probably so too, as the game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I've seen some crazy situations. One of the things that I think I've evolved as a parent and as a coach and a player for that matter, is, whether it's adult league or I'm on the bench, is is no matter what I'm feeling frustration, anger is to kind of move that aside and really collaborate with the referee or the linesman. Just tell me what you saw, tell me why you made that decision. I just recently had a situation. Actually, I was on a bench and we felt the official made a poor call. It was a situation where the puck, in our opinion, clearly hit the crossbar and they called it a goal, right, um, and it's very frustrating, okay. So the ref comes over and we said, very kindly, look, just tell us what you saw there, right, and he says I believe I saw the puck go in the net, um, and we just said, okay, thank you. We didn't yell at him, we didn't say this, that, this, that that's what he thinks he saw.
Speaker 1:Now, to this official's credit and I will say this is very rare, um, after the game he came up to us, he watched the footage we and we had a little bit better footage than live barn for this one, mike and he said he came up to this. I couldn't believe it, sean. He said listen, that puck 100 of the cross bar. I made the wrong call. And you know what? We shook his hand and we praised him for having the guts to come up to us and say I made the wrong call. Yeah, all right, I've seen that a few times. Right, but it proves your point, sean, that they really want to get it right.
Speaker 1:If he could have left the arena, nobody would have ever nothing would have happened, nothing. We would have never thought about it again. He went out of his way to come up to us and say that I've had refs come up to me on the ice and shake. I made the wrong call there. So there's a lot of honor in this position and I think also, though, the way we approach them right. I just want a conversation. I just want to know why you made that. It sounds funny the way I'm saying this. It can kind of get a ref on your side a little bit Just want to know what's going on, right. So respect brings back respect. If you scream at a ref, what do you think they're going to do? What?
Speaker 3:do you expect them to do? It's also your long-term view on this, and I don't think parents have that and they probably don't need to, because they're in and out of the game. But when you're in the game, right, and you're directing programs and you're overseeing multiple teams at multiple levels or you're in a position of authority within the sport, you have to understand that the more you, more you bring these officials into the funnel. If you want to keep the good ones, you've got to, they've got to get through the gauntlet and unfortunately, the ones that stick around are just the jackasses. Sometimes you're like of course this guy sticks around, he loves the controversy, they love the aggression, they like to be in control they have.
Speaker 3:No, you know they're somewhere along the line. They don't get that control right. So when they're on the ice they get to have that. But that doesn't help us as coaches and players as you go through. So the more you know good people, you could keep in the system. I don't mean you got to coddle, I mean listen officials make. When I used to rap, I used to when I used to love going through the bench like oh, rep, that was a horrible call, I'd go. You know what was a horrible call? You putting your first line out against that forechecking line because they just kicked your butt. That was a bad call. So I think the ability to have a discussion with coaches and understand that we're all like listen, my son's lacrosse game tonight is canceled because there's no official.
Speaker 4:Wow yeah, right, that's not situations, that's not yeah and and and.
Speaker 3:To me, if you're a parent that wants to see the sport survive, we need these. Like it's like you know, sean, you probably see it now too right, you walk in the rink and like, hey, who can do the clock today? It's like people just scatter for the exits. You know, like I can't do it. I can't do it. There's too much pressure it.
Speaker 1:There's too much pressure, my thumb hurts.
Speaker 3:The thing is like we want more people to help and more people to be involved. We have to understand we're in a collective here and that people have to support everybody in that ecosystem officials, coaches, refs, timekeepers does they have bony driver? Like, if you're just going to, you know, go off on everyone.
Speaker 3:we're not going to have sport left and I think, you know, I think if you're a parent and you're in it, just you're just there with your kid in there. I guess I don't expect you to see that, but as people of authority and people that are run these programs, we have to do a much better job of educating and reinforcing and and supporting these good officials that want to be in the game, because we need them later on.
Speaker 4:Right, and I'm glad you mentioned that, mike, because we've also seen a shortage of referees here and games being canceled or, you know, a whole shifting of schedules because not enough refs are in our area and there's a heavy recruitment drive now as well. So many parents want to shy away from it, not because they don't have the time, they just don't have the stamina to deal with all the negativity and I I mean and that's that's on you parents- that's you, so you can change that.
Speaker 2:And I think I think you know, know in the broader picture, you know we want our kids to love sports, we want our kids to love the things that we love, but we want to use sport to teach them lessons, right, to teach them life lessons. And one of the most important ones, in my opinion, if not the most important, is respect. And we don't do that when we get into the arena again, that logic that um is is lost on us, and or maybe more so when the puck gets dropped. But um, we have to teach our kids respect and learning.
Speaker 2:It's okay to be emotional about a bad call. You can be angry with that. You can also be angry when you have a bad shift, or when your teammate has a bad shift, your goalie lets in a bad goal. You can be angry and upset about all of those things. It's okay. But you can't turn around and be disrespectful to your teammates, to your coach, to the referee. You have to learn that respect and you have to learn how to play the game, because it's only going to get more difficult as you get older. When mistakes are made, you're going to be held accountable more often and you have to learn to be okay with that.
Speaker 2:So, again, learn to be okay with referees making a tough call. Be mad about it, that's fine. The referees won't, won't hold it against you, it's going to, it's going to teach kids a good life lesson, I think, and that's something I think we need to focus on a bit more. I think largely, you know our kids aren't dumb. They, they, they pick things up, they understand things and and, um, you know, they understand when, when a coach is being hard on them, and they understand how that that feels. If someone's being disrespectful to them, they may not be able to put words to it, but they understand the feeling and we got to teach our kids to, to, to, to do better than than that, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sean, I'm going to dive all over that, jump all on that, because I'll tell you a few things that you're talking about. Respect, and respect leads to accountability. On in this format. Right, you said it, kids are not dumb, and you're right. When a kid sees their parent or their coach yelling at the refs and complaining to the refs and saying you ruined the game, you are teaching that kid. That is the process, right, right, and I'll give you a great example of getting the bird's eye view.
Speaker 1:You know, a lot of kids, when we're recording this, are in the kind of the parody tournament time here in Pennsylvania where they're putting them up against other teams. And I had a parent asked me well, what are you watching for? What are you looking for? And my answer shocked them I'm. I said I'm looking to see how these kids deal with adversity, right, I'm not looking at lineups, I'm not looking at skill, I'm looking at cause, teams picked already, right, I'm looking at when they go down to nothing, or they're up to nothing and they go down three to two, how do they respond? Because at that age I'm talking kind of the, the, the peewee squirt level. Right now, at that age, that's a skillset that coaches and parents should jointly be teaching, right? I want to see if they can come back from that situation or the bad call I'm going to echo what I said earlier Okay, it was bad call, now what?
Speaker 1:Okay, this kid didn't pass to you. Okay, agree with you, now what? That is a skillset that, both as individuals and teams, will help your kids grow, because, as we all know, life is going to throw things that there's no, there's no officiating in life, right, I mean, I'm sure a lot of people wish that. You know, when you get a car crash, a guy can come in with a whistle. Hey, you cut him off. That's too much, it doesn't work that way.
Speaker 1:You just got to deal with it Right, and I think that's it's a larger problem with society in general. But to I love that you brought up the word respect, because respect leads to accountability. You have to respect the other person in the play. And again, there's that famous quote that whenever an official makes a call, half the people on the ice think that person's wrong. It doesn't matter, half the people think they're wrong. So I think it's amazing that we even have the ability to look at these things. But I had to tap on that because that life lesson is so much more important than getting a Michigan or a wrist shot down or a glove hand or waving your stick. Those are the things, especially at the young ages, that develop these young athletes into the type of person that can be productive and a player.
Speaker 1:I'm rambling a bit here, but I wanted to ask you too, sean, just just about the situation, because I'm looking at the time here. Yeah, we're talking about officials and calls, but your job actually entails a lot more than that um, you had mentioned. You know, one of your responsibilities is also points right and awarding or taking away points from other plays. I want you to talk about that. And are there other additional responsibilities in that situation room that we don't think about, that we don't know about yeah, I guess let me let me speak to that last part first.
Speaker 2:Our group, as in general, we, we have there's a number, there's a few guys more senior than me that have, you know, a wealth of nhl playing experience and um, and you know some some with experience in coaching and managing, as I said before, um. But part of our group's responsibility is is looking at a bigger picture of the game, like, are there tweaks to rules that we think would be would be good to implement into the game? And we'll take those recommendations if we feel that there is, and we gather video evidence of these things and and we will present them to the general managers in in their meetings. So our, our boss, colin Campbell's responsible for putting those meetings on and, you know, coming up with the agenda for them, and we will put these things on the agenda to discuss. So we have a very heavy involvement in rule changes or rule interpretation changes. So that's obviously no small thing. That's a fairly important thing and we're always trying to to drive, you know, skill and and reward skill and and like. So we, as part of our nightly watching, we're looking for things like that. We're not always looking just to make change just to make change, but if we think something might benefit, and then we'll bring it to the managers and if there's traction, it might move on to the competition committee and so on, and if there isn't, we just move on, right. So that's, that's one thing you know.
Speaker 2:And then individuals within our group have different responsibilities, and some guys are on the you know protective equipment subcommittee and things like that, and one of my other responsibilities is, you know, kind of being the official, the NHL official scorer.
Speaker 2:So when a goal is scored, if there's a question as to who should get assists or who should get credit for the goal if it was a deflectionlection, something like that um, our auditing process will flag that play. It'll come to me to to review it within the situation room and all the the technology that we have, and then make a decision. Um, more often than not it's like we can't tell if this player got a touch on the puck, um, and should be awarded with an assist, and then we'll go look at it. Um, the more difficult ones are determining whether a defensive player gained control of the puck enough to negate an assist, and those tend to be the ones that you know you get the most pushback from the teams. The teams can request reviews of goals, so they'll send it to our stats department and they pass it on to me, and even the scorers in the building in real time can message and say we're having a tough time determining this one. Can you take a look at it? And so yeah, because player.
Speaker 3:X is leaning over the glass saying I got that assist. I got that assist. I need that for my bonus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and fortunately, like we see it less because, again, there's so much video out there. It can be obvious. And yet we still get a lot of requests to review something. That is pretty obvious. They're just hoping something sticks and they'll get a break and get it. But I'll get messages from the teams to review something and you know you get messages from agents and the like, but I don't, we don't listen to, we don't acknowledge those. If they want a review, we tell them, tell your player to go through the PR director and and then we'll review it. Um, uh, so. So that can be contentious, especially in a world where where betting is is um a lot and is uh um, well, that doesn't. I don't have to take that into account when making a decision. I'm very well insulated from that. But I just got an email last night a pretty pointed email that I'm not very good at my job, from a random person. I don't know who it is.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry for sending that, sean. I should have cooled off.
Speaker 3:I think it was my son, my son's question was why is the league always against Sidney Crosby and the Penguins? I don't know, but that's that's.
Speaker 2:Because then Flyer fans are always saying why are you always saying that?
Speaker 1:I'm sitting here right now going. What are you talking about, Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's one of the things. And then you know, I'll also consult with our. We have a group of people working to automate a lot of our statistics. So like Time on Ice, as an example, with the trackers and the players' jerseys. Now, to automate a lot of our statistics, so, like time on ice, as an example, is with the trackers and the players jerseys, now we can get a really good, you know, accurate picture of exactly how many, how much time a player is on the ice and you remove some of the human error. So, anyway, and we're looking to automate a lot of statistics missed shots, shots on goal, shot attempts, things like that and so I will.
Speaker 2:Our stats analysts will consult with me. They'll say you know, we're creating definitions for play so that they can write code based off of that, so that when the AI system you know the course of the game can appropriately assign things to a bucket, and zeroing in on those definitions can be really difficult. You have a lot of what you call edge cases right, where it's like geez, this could go one way or the other, like, how do we want the system to, how do we want the AI to like assign these things? And it's really, really difficult and you're going to have those that can't be easily put into a bucket. So a lot of I do a lot of work with, with those, that group of people, to say to try to narrow that down so there are fewer exceptions or fewer gray area, ones that needs a human to go in and say I'm going to put this over here, right, so so that that's a really kind of fun um aspect of the job to work on.
Speaker 2:That wasn't initially something that was a responsibility of mine, neither was the scoring um. Our long-time chief statistician, benny ercolani, retired a number of years ago and um, and I was fortunate I have a great relationship with benny and I. I was fortunate that when he retired it was recommended that I take over that part of his responsibility and and so again, it wasn't like actually none of my career even existed when I was a kid. So it's not something you could, you could dream to work towards.
Speaker 3:I can't wait to do that. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly yeah. So you know, it's just an added responsibility that came when Benny retired. It's like, yeah, you know, I clearly never thought of doing something like that or adding that to my responsibilities, but that could be pretty fun, pretty cool, and I'm really happy to do that part of the job. Now it's fun again, not without its controversy and not without its downside, but you're often telling players things they don't want to hear. But that's the job.
Speaker 1:It is amazing how much this game has evolved and the minutia of how it evolves, right when I think other sports leagues have a hard time making changes. The NHL has always been very forthright in saying look, we want to get this to the best it can be. And you know, sean, I'll be honest with you, you and I are getting to an age now. We've seen many iterations of this game, from you know, the six, six foot five, 220 pound, 90 era to really speed and talent and skill today. So I wanted to ask you, kind of, with the scope on, do you have any favorite rule changes or changes to the game that you've seen over your time there that you went? You know what this has just made the game so much better. Um, you know, a few pop in my head, but I'd love again. You're there, right, right, I'd love your thoughts on that, oh, that's a.
Speaker 2:That's a great question and a very difficult one. There's a lot, yeah, there's, there's a, there's a lot. I mean, I, I'm a big, big fan of anything that promotes skill and, and I think as the foundation of a lot of the rule changes, or the interpretation changes, have been to reward offense and reward skill. However, we still understand, and you want to reward players that are very good defensively. You want to keep the, the, the hitting in the game, the clean hitting in the game. So I think one of the things that I love that we've done or endeavored to do is to protect our players from those big sort of blindside hits that we can all remember. Yeah, to have specific plays that were like, maybe a lot of like.
Speaker 2:I always think of scott stevens, because he was my mind too. Yeah, just such an imposing player and and so much fun to watch, um, just so good and and so tough. Like some, a lot of his hits wouldn't be okay today. Um, and and I I don't mean to single him out there was plenty of players at that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I love that we're working consistently and continuously to protect players but also still have that accountability that you can't come through the middle with your head down and expect not to get hit. You can't come through the middle with your head down and expect not to get hit.
Speaker 3:So I watched the game. I watched the game the other day where TJ Oshie actually was questioned about Panarin hitting him and TJ Oshie said you know, knowing that he makes hits like that, he's like I don't mind the hit. Like you know, I just thought it was a good hit. So when a player at least backs that up, when you have every capital fan in the world going crazy that it was an illegal hit and nobody, and then it turns out it wasn't even a call, like that's a good, like it's great that the players are able to say listen, I don't mind that hit, I like that hit yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:I love when, when players still have that perspective that you know. We see a lot of times now and and, mind you, we're very, very close in the room, like we're very we see everything right. So we can sometimes overthink it and see, say, oh, there's a lot of players turning their backs to hits and expecting they're not going to get hit. We maybe just overemphasize it like, cause you as a fan watching your team, probably only see that a couple of times or a handful of times and we were just so close to it, right.
Speaker 2:But but I love when players today hold themselves accountable and say I put myself in a bad spot there. That doesn't mean I liked getting hit. You don't have to say, oh, that was great, I'm so glad he did that. But you can that they can at least acknowledge I put myself in a tough spot there, I got to do better the next time around. I love that accountability that they can show. But again, to answer your question, I think I love anything that sort of continues to promote the skill that our players have, because I think it's what separates the NHL players from the non-NHL players. What they're able to do now at NHL speed is, I think, something that I marvel at every single night.
Speaker 2:Me too, and you know I watch like you watch like you get a little bit jaded when you're watching as much as I do. Like you just expect, because players do the right thing so often, they make the right smart play so often. So when you watch a preseason hockey game and you have players that are maybe not necessarily ready for the NHL yet, it's such a stark difference from preseason game to game 10 to game 50 of the season. Like these guys do things right all the time and the speed at which they're able to do that, as a function of of, maybe, the rules in 0405, when they changed from the 100 percent old era, the dead puck era, to to what it is now, is like I, I I marveled when I was a kid watching the nhl in that era, um, and maybe even more so now because the the yeah, um. So I don't know if I could put us like, say, one specific rule, um, but, but it would be anything. I guess that that promotes yeah no, sean, I agree with you.
Speaker 1:I think the emphasis on the talent, um over the structure of a person has been a beautiful thing. The speed of the game is what makes the game beautiful and yeah, you know it's, it's funny. You know, when we were growing up, I, I encourage parents especially that, maybe parents who weren't really around the game, uh, you know, before 2005 to watch a game from 1993 or or, you know, and and just the, the amount you could hold someone or obstruct someone, and mike I think mike used it as a lot that every play would be a penalty.
Speaker 3:Today, by today's rules, darryl Lemieux would have had 300 goals. People would just lay on him.
Speaker 2:Mike, that's a great point. I watched just a little snippet of a clip yesterday. I was like there was 10 penalties in that 20-second period of time. And think about how many of our record holders, right for whatever stat, are players from that era. You're like what if they had an opportunity to play under these rules? Now, like I don't know, there's no telling, obviously, but what Steve Eisenman was able to do he was my favorite player growing up and what he was able to do in that era is like man, I don't know. There was no space on that ice for someone like him and he still made it happen.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of lumberjacks at that time period. But, sean, I love in this area. We could go for hours and hours here. You know, I just want to thank you for being here, thank you for what you're doing for the game, because I think you're giving our audience extreme perspective from multiple fronts. One is just obviously an officiating front, but two is how committed the NHL is to getting it right. Right. And again, when you look at other sports, it's not close. I mean it's not close. I wish Major League Baseball would take the strike zone off the TV. I don't want to see it anymore. Right. And then the other thing too is the evolution of the game. The NHL is always trying to put a better product on the ice, and it's for the fans, right? People get lost in that. Well, they're doing this. They want this team to win. I can tell you this from my time there. Sean can tell you this. That is not true. There's no master script or master plan. You're committed to this, making this the best product it can possibly be.
Speaker 2:I've never been sent an email, a memo, a text message, a phone call that said anything. Any game, anything needs to go a certain way. Like it and if it, if something like that ever happened, don't you think it would have got out somehow?
Speaker 2:Like yeah people don't keep that kind of thing quiet, right. But I do want to emphasize one other thing and I think what, what separates us from our review process, I should say, from other, most other professional sports and, mind you, every professional league has come through our room, right, right, how we do what we do, collaboration there, for sure, we we were the first to have centralized video review, so every major professional sports league has come to us to see the technology we use, the process that we we have in place, and we're unique in that we're not officials. None of us were referees or linesmen. We all played hockey at different levels. Like I say, the guys more senior than me in our group played in the NHL and whenever they had that experience, we all played the game, but we didn't officiate the game. We think it's important that we have that in place, because we're not former referees looking to confirm our current referees call Like we want to see it. We think we can see it more objectively as a result, and we're also not members of the team, so we're not looking at it from a team through the team's lens. We're looking at the play and the unique set of circumstances that that play, that consists of that play and and we're making a judgment based off of that. So every play is a snowflake and you know, people want to compare one play to the other. We see the nuance and that's what we get paid to do, that's what our responsibility is to to make a decision on that play for that unique set of circumstances.
Speaker 2:I think again, I just wanted to make that point I think that's one of the things that separates us from the other sports leagues. I'm not just talking about North American. Like we've had Aussie rules football and national basketball league in Australia. We've had horse racing leagues come, come through, I mean, like you name it. They've come through to see what we do and it's about the process and you can take that, you know, within hockey, you could put it to basketball, you could put it to football, like any other sport. It's the process. But again, that's what I think separates us is I think we're still the only group, that league, that does it without it being officials. We have a retired official in the room with us as a someone to give us some some officiating experience and to give us their perspective. But ultimately all those decisions are made by us. We have the final say and we can overrule the referees, and I think that's what. What again? What separates us from the other leagues?
Speaker 1:Checks and balances, right? I mean it's. It's incredible, sean. I want to ask you too, just for the parents listening, the coaches listening again, it's all about youth hockey on this show, right? Any, any words of wisdom?
Speaker 2:any thoughts is the person that you are in your position for them when they they go to their next kids game. Um, perspective, um, remember what age your, your kids, are and and I speak from my experience with a nine-year-old try to see the world through their eyes. You know they're kids still and I want my kid to be a kid. I want them to learn to take things seriously and have that responsibility and accountability, but I can't teach them that in one day. It's a process. You build a base layer and you continue to layer on top of that. Um, every day, um, there's going to it's there's going to be steps back. It's two steps forward, one step back. Some days, some months, it's one step forward and two steps back, and that's okay. Um, it's all about perspective for me, and and being objective and understanding that our kids are kids and um, the likelihood that any one of our kids is the next Sidney Crosby not very high. Um, they could be. I won't say they they're not, but they're probably not and they're probably going to enjoy other things in life and hockey is just one of those things and um, so I want my, my kids to to love the things that I love, but, more importantly, I want them to love the things that they love and and if they go and have a bad game, a bad tryout, a bad practice, like it's okay. You know, um, we all have bad days at work, we have bad days, days in in in our life and I don't want that to be held against me, so we shouldn't hold that against our, our kids as well. And, and for the kids it's, it's just fully enjoy what you're doing. You know, like, if it ever becomes a, a burden, if it ever becomes a drag, if it you look to do something else, you're a kid and allow yourself to be a kid.
Speaker 2:I was again at my son's tryout last night and the group that was going on after them were a few years older and the kids were playing volleyball to warm up up and it quickly devolved into just spiking the ball at each other, like trying to hit each other in the head. It was pretty funny, but I'm talking with another parent. The balls come whizzing by our heads and you know we're, we're ducking and and it was a good reminder of, like kids, being kids and having zero awareness of anybody else around them. And it's okay, because I remember being that kid and playing and having that much fun and not having any awareness of any adults around me and the impact I might have on them If it crosses a line.
Speaker 2:Somebody would say something right, but they were kids being kids and there's nothing I love more than watching my kid be a kid. There's nothing I love more than watching my kid be a kid. It's a special time in his life and in his hockey career. If he continues to have one, being nine years old, it's one of the last times you're going to be able to just be a kid playing a sport. It's starting to get more and more serious. I don't want parents, especially at the u10, u11 age and below, getting too far ahead of themselves. Um right, yeah, I think that happens a little too much now I would agree.
Speaker 1:I think that's one of the reasons we have the audience that we have, who we appreciate very much, because I think they're looking for sage advice.
Speaker 2:Yeah and I want to say too, like in listening to a lot of your, your episodes and and I think it's so great that I think probably a lot of the listeners are people that want to do better. They're not. They're probably not the parents standing on the glass screaming and and getting into fights and and and the like like you. You listen to things like this, shows like this, and because you're, you're wanting to be better as a parent for your kid, and so I applaud what you guys do here and your listeners in listening to you so that they can be better hockey parents and maybe parents in general. I think it's really special. So I'm really honored and happy to have been here with you today. Appreciate you having me. Thank you, sean, that's a very nice compliment to us and the listeners to have been here with you today.
Speaker 1:Appreciate you having me. Thank you, sean. That's a very nice compliment to us and the listeners and we agree with you. We think that the dad's screaming over the glass Probably not a big listener, probably not coming on here week to week, but they're always welcome. We're still waiting for that email to come in of. I am this fan and I hate your show because you're speaking logic.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's coming. Don't worry, I get that by the looks and the rink. That's how I know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, no. I roll like oh, this guy, you got to give him that. Stare down, mike Christy. Anything before I close this out.
Speaker 4:No, Sean, thank you so much. You gave us such a neat, rare inside look in that situation room. It was what a treat for us. Thank, you. And it's much more sophisticated and interesting than I even imagined it to be. So this was, this was great.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Yeah, we're not a group of people just kicking our feet up to watch hockey. We're involved a little bit more.
Speaker 3:I just kicking our feet up to watch hockey, we're involved a little bit more. I just see it as the ultimate man cave. You're like oh my God, there's TVs everywhere. Guys are. Somebody bring out the blue.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, we're in the process of building a brand-new room that will be open next season. It will be even more special than the one we had.
Speaker 4:Oh good, we want it in-pipe. We want an invite. We want an invite.
Speaker 2:Anytime you guys are in Toronto and you want to come take a lick, reach out. It's going to happen now. Bring it to you live. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:I just want to know why the Michigan isn't called a high stick every time.
Speaker 2:That's all I want to know. There you go, because it's kept below the height of the crossbar. All right?
Speaker 3:Well, let's see.
Speaker 1:We all knew that.
Speaker 3:I. It's kept below the height of the crossbar, all right. Well, let's see. Like we all knew, that I could make.
Speaker 1:I could make a good argument about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll be on the next one. Hey, we've we've had a pretty good conversation about that. Uh, not this, like 10 years ago probably. Um, like it was like the what if, like what if this, because we knew that that goal happening in college, right, you knew it. Like what happens when this happened. It wasn't if it happens in a game, it was when it happens, right, and we had a really healthy conversation about it and and I don't think anything in our rules currently, um, you could use to to say it's illegal, but, um, you know, but there was a time where the spinorama was legal in in a penalty shot or a shootout and now it's not.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, never say never, but I love the competition remember kids practice more than that shot well, I have to have you back on sean, but, uh, I appreciate you being here greatly today. Again, if you have questions, uh, you can send them to us. Team at our kids play hockeycom is the email. Uh, if you've got enough questions for Sean I'm sure you all will We'll do a second episode. Just please don't make it like why in this game back in 1997? We're not going to discuss those on the air.
Speaker 3:Don't bring up the Hasek, the St Louis game.
Speaker 1:We're not doing 99. We're not doing any of those things.
Speaker 2:This is we're moving forward. The Brett Holtz on the crease rule yeah Right, All right.
Speaker 1:That's going to do it for this episode of Our Kids Play Hockey, powered by NHL Sense Arena. Remember you can see or listen to all of our episodes at ourkidsplayhockeycom, for Sean Ellis, christy Cash, adam Burns and Mike Ben going to see on the next episode. People, make sure you're enjoying the spring and the summer. Get outside and enjoy it, because we enjoy and we appreciate you Skate on everybody. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value, wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network or our website, ourkidsplayhockeycom. Also, make sure to check out our children's book when Hockey Stops at whenhockeystopscom. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey and we'll see you on the next episode.
