Our Kids Play Hockey
Our Kids Play Hockey is a podcast that focuses on youth hockey, offering insights, stories, and interviews from the hockey community. It provides valuable advice for parents, coaches, and players, covering various aspects of the game, including skill development, sportsmanship, teamwork, and creating a positive experience for young athletes. The show frequently features guests who share their expertise and personal experiences in youth hockey, both on and off the ice.
The show features three hockey parents, who all work in the game at high levels:
- Christie Casciano-Burns - USA Hockey Columnist, Author, and WSYR Anchor
- Mike Bonelli - USA Hockey Coach and Organizational Consultant
- Lee M.J. Elias - Hockey Entrepreneur, Author, and Team Strategist
In addition to the main podcast, there are several spin-off series that dive into specific aspects of youth hockey:
1.Our Girls Play Hockey – This series highlights the growing presence of girls in hockey, addressing the unique challenges they face while celebrating their accomplishments and contributions to the sport. Each episode of Our Girls Play Hockey is also hosted by Sheri Hudspeth who is the Director, Youth Hockey Programs and Fan Development for the Vegas Golden Knights.
2.The Ride to The Rink – A shorter, motivational series designed to be listened to on the way to the rink, offering quick, inspirational tips and advice to help players and parents get into the right mindset before a game or practice.
3.Our Kids Play Goalie – This series is dedicated to young goalies and the unique challenges they face. It provides advice for players, parents, and coaches on how to support and develop young goaltenders, focusing on the mental and physical demands of the position.
Together, these shows provide a comprehensive platform for parents, players, and coaches involved in youth hockey, offering insights for all aspects of the sport, from parenting, playing, or coaching to specialized positions like goaltending.
Our Kids Play Hockey
Building America's Biggest Youth Hockey League with NIHL President Bob Apter
On this episode of Our Kids Play Hockey, hosts Lee Elias, Mike Bonelli, and Christie Casciano Burns are joined by Bob Apter, President of the Northern Illinois Hockey League (NIHL), the largest youth hockey league in the United States.
Bob shares his journey from a passionate young player to the leader of a league with over 50 organizations and 300 teams. Discover how NIHL’s innovative approach to competitive balance, community involvement, and partnerships with major teams like the Chicago Blackhawks has fostered incredible growth and success.
Bob also provides valuable insights on how parents can make informed decisions about their child’s hockey journey, the importance of fair play, and the impact of meaningful game experiences. Plus, learn about the special initiatives NIHL supports, including their collaboration with the Wounded Warriors veterans team.
Key Points:
•Growth and Success of NIHL:
•How NIHL grew from six teams to over 300.
•The league’s commitment to fair play and competitive balance.
•Partnership with the Chicago Blackhawks:
•Promoting youth hockey growth through collaboration with the Blackhawks.
•Creating memorable championship experiences for young players.
•Ensuring Fair Play:
•NIHL’s unique seeding process and its benefits.
•Addressing challenges in maintaining competitive balance.
•Parental Involvement:
•Tips for parents on making informed decisions about league changes.
•Understanding and supporting your child’s hockey needs.
•Communication and Transparency:
•How NIHL maintains open lines of communication with families and clubs.
•The importance of listening to feedback and making adjustments.
•Special Initiatives:
•Involving the Wounded Warriors veterans team and fostering community connections.
•Success stories like Tage Thompson’s journey from NIHL to the NHL.
Quotes:
•“If you like the situation, the coach, the staff, and the rink, there’s no reason to leave ever.”
•“Competitiveness is key. Winning or losing by 10 goals doesn’t help anyone.”
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Hello hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, powered by NHL Sensorina. I love saying that every single time we record, I'm Lee Elias and I'm joined by Mike Benelli and Christy Casciano-Burns, and in our continued journey to share information surrounding the youth hockey world, today we have brought on the leader of one of the largest, if not the largest, youth hockey leagues in the United States. Bob Apter is the president of the Northern Illinois Hockey League, the NIHL, which consists of over 50 travel hockey organizations with over 300 individual teams. I have enough stuff with my own organization, which is not even close to that.
Speaker 1:Over the near decade that Bob has been in charge, the league's growth and interest in the sport have boomed substantially. This is attributed to the league's focus on providing quality experiences, fair play and opportunities for everyone. Additionally, bob signed a partnership with the Chicago Blackhawks you might have heard of them to promote the growth of the local youth hockey market. Bob, we're looking forward to picking your brain today. Welcome to Our Kids Play Hockey. I appreciate you having me. Thanks, hey, we appreciate having you on. This is going to be a great conversation today, but first and foremost, tell the audience about your hockey background and how you ended up in this position.
Speaker 2:That's a good question. I started playing before I could walk. My dad actually took me out on the ice before I could walk and had me on Big Pond at summer camp when I was three. And then I started playing and then at age 10, I had open heart surgery, so I had to take a couple of years off.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a birth hole in between two valves. Oh my gosh, birth birth hole in between two valves. And they knew it. And then, uh, it took off, played high school, played through college. Uh, actually played for the club that dennis hole ran. Uh took a job and wanted to get back involved. So when I, when I had to take the year off at 10, I started assistant coaching with some older people not really much and then I coached all the way through at various levels, including 14 years at high school, and then, once my kids started playing, I quit coaching the high school so that I could coach my kids. And then, as they got more and more involved and began to seek their own way, I stepped back and decided to get in on the administrative end. And that's where Nihil actually called me and said we've been around, would you be interested in being a vice president? Because he was retiring. So I took that over and six or seven years later they said would you run it? And that's when I took the reins.
Speaker 3:And here we are Wow. Before we go for it, I'm just astounded at age 10 what happened to you that you still played hockey after that. For parents listening whose children are perhaps going through something similar, could you share with us the decision made by you, your parents, to keep playing, because some would say that's it, you're done?
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually, back then it was experimental, wow. So they really didn't know what the effects would be. I was born with a hole in between two valves, oh my gosh. They knew eventually they would have to close it. But they put me in as many athletic sports as possible, get me as physically in shape as they, you know, as you can get any 10 year old. But I saw, I actually ran track, played hockey.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, several sports.
Speaker 2:Uh they, I had the surgery. They said it would be at least 12 months off. I ended up being about 18 months off because the scar was huge, it was taking a long time to close and then, as soon as you know, the doctor said okay. My mom and dad were like it's up to you, it's your decision. I was 12 at the time and I wanted to play, so back into it I was.
Speaker 3:Remarkable, that is remarkable.
Speaker 1:I'm going to dive back into the hockey league in a minute, but I have to pull a thread on this too, because I was not expecting you to say that in the open right, sorry I. I imagine going through something like that at 10 creates a level of adversity facing that you've taken into your whole life. I mean, what perspective does that give you at 10 that has continued on to make you the person that you are today?
Speaker 2:Well, I will say that back then. I won't say that I was shaded from it, but I don't know. I guess when you're 10 and 12, you never think of the seriousness and you know this could be it.
Speaker 2:It never dawns on your mind it's always what's the next step, what's the next step? And then, once you're through it I mean, if you want to hear a little funny non-hockey story I, I, I. The day after surgery, after I was in intensive care, the contacts were in a big series at kansas city and I kept bugging the nurses to get me one of those portable TVs and they wouldn't reel it in. So when my parents went home the second night, I got one of the assistant nurses to walk with me and I barely in one of those mobile things, and I went to the regular room and rolled the TV in myself. When you're 10, you really don't think of the consequences beyond the next minute. So sure, oh my gosh parents would have left, if they knew that
Speaker 1:I. I'm just. I just imagine that builds a level of resolve, that that brings you to the leadership position you are today, that you know when you deal with that at such a young age, it gives you some perspective. But listen, we could do probably a whole show on that. The audience is here for the hockey stuff. I hope you like it. What an intro. One question I wanted to ask is this when I think of the statement, the largest youth hockey organization in the United States? If I were to ask people where do you think that was right, I imagine a lot of people would say Minnesota, maybe Michigan, maybe New England, boston. But it's not. It's in Illinois. So how did this league become the massive league that it is?
Speaker 2:It started 55 years ago and it was small I believe six or eight teams and it was built with the philosophy that doesn't matter how good or new you are at the game, we'll find an equal level of play. So if they had what's called a seating round, which we still have, so every team plays between six and ten games, depending on how many declare at each level. So every every say, let's say a 10 year olds, every hockey director will declare they want them, either at PSL, which, which is our highest elite gold, silver, bronze and then, depending on how many declare at each level, we play a seating round game. So they all play each other one time in the first eight weeks and then they get put. If they can't compete at that level, the executive board gets together and we put them where we think they can compete, because the goal no goal is perfect is to make it. So every game is a three goal or a game less, because the more competitive each game is, doesn't matter if you're bronze, tier three, if the game's competitive, you'll come back. If the game's not competitive, that's when kids start to quit hockey.
Speaker 2:So it was started way back then and they it was only three or four levels and then teams from all over the state tried to get in and as they went through the process of getting in and every vote is a club vote, like our executive board, which is run by eight of us makes no rule or bylaw decisions. It's all voted by the member clubs. So they decide. That's one of the rarities of our league, because most leagues are dictated by a few people at the top. Our league. The rule changes and stuff are voted, and who gets let in are voted by the members. So as it got bigger and bigger, it decided people from wisconsin wanted to get in. Then we added some teams from Indiana, now we have teams from St Louis and Iowa and we've even added a couple teams from Michigan, believe it or not. So this year we probably will have three from Michigan.
Speaker 3:Very surprising. What do you attribute that to?
Speaker 2:I think it's the fairness I mean teams play in the league and they don't. There's another league in Illinois and I can show you the stats from that league that there's teams in the league that went through a season that's 16 year old were minus 274 per year.
Speaker 2:They don't want to get in and play in that because, especially as a 16 year old, that leads to fights and as a 9 and 10-year-old. We have a 10-year team that was minus 200 for the year. So if they played 25 league games and they're minus 200, how much fun were they having, right? So they tend to quit the game and there is actual documented proof that people that play in a couple levels in those leagues quit hockey and they find another sport or they find a better way to spend $5,000, which is to play hockey out here. So they tend to gravitate towards where they think the experience is going to be fair and good. Be fair and good.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I just, I would. Just. I'm just wondering how hard the evaluation process is and the placement process of these like seeding games, right when you know we have teams in some leagues in some areas that you know their team managers set the schedule up in August and you get it for the whole year and you're like, here we are, this is who we're playing and every showcase weekend we're going to. So can you talk a little bit about the pros of it? Because I think we know the cons it's scheduling nightmare and uh, you know people can't plan a lot of vacation time and other things outside hockey. But the pros of reseeding, like you just talked about, nobody wants to see a 10u team, um, a negative, you know, 200 and something in in goal differential, I mean, or what know, just not being in a fair place.
Speaker 4:And I think ultimately, as parents, all of us just want competitive games for our kids. We want them to go in and feel like at any given day they can win At any given day. If they lose, they can learn a lesson from that and move on. So maybe just talk about you know why and obviously it's successful because you've been around long enough that it's working. Talk about, like some of those pros that you see, okay, teams come in and maybe a little bit about you know, maybe the gamesmanship there too, right, I'm sure people try to get, they want to be the highest seed in the lowest division and and little things like that, you know, just trying to manipulate the league a little bit. But I think it sounds like you know, because the membership and all you all, you all the board members and everybody on the executive committee is tied in together, you know you can get through some of the you know.
Speaker 2:You know some of the parts of the of the seeding process that you know might not be as fair as some people might want it to be right. So so it's unlike and that's a big drawback is the schedule, because the other league touts that the whole schedule is done in august. Right, but, um, one of the things about scheduling is we let the teams make their own schedule. Now they have parameters. You have to, you have to play.
Speaker 2:Uh, I don't know how much you guys know about the ccm invites, but basically that's the rescheduling time for us, because nobody has ice out here, because the CCM invites take all the ranks, right, so that's when we recede and then they have, from basically the Monday after the CCM invites till Super Bowl, to fit in a regular season, which consists of, depending on how many teams are, each level, 16 to 20 games. Regular season, which consists of, depending on how many teams are each level, 16 to 20 games. So, and they make their own schedule. We encourage teams that are like neighboring suburbs to fill a lot of their slots with weekday games, because you can get one is with the referee shortage you're going to be assured you're going to have two refs if you schedule a game on a Monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday right.
Speaker 2:On a Saturday or Sunday. There are times where the teams have to play with one ref because there just isn't enough out here, so they make their own schedule. Now there's a lot of gamesmanship, like Mike just said. Where they're. Oh well, you know, the only thing we have is 8 in the morning, right, which is the very earliest we left. So if they can't agree after two or three rounds, then their presidents talk. If their presidents can't talk, then it goes to the Nihil R&E and our R&E will decide which is the most fairest time. And I can say that I've been president for almost 10 years. I think it's gone to our R&E less than five times because no two team managers want to risk that Nihil going. All right, you're playing this time or you're playing it this time because it's just not worth the risk. So they miraculously, before it gets to that point, they're working hard. But that is the gamesmanship that they. Oh wait, I see that on your schedule you're playing a Saturday night game at 8. Oh, we have a 10 am slot Sunday.
Speaker 4:But, bob, I also like the fact that you can look down the horizon and when you know you're not a good team, you're placed in the division, you're a 10-year team, a 12-year team, you just know who you are. And to look at a schedule down the road and be like, are you telling me for the next 20 weeks we are going to get our doors blown off? Like there is just no motivation behind that. It's bad for the kids. I mean, forget about 16-year-olds fighting. Now you've got 45-year-olds fighting in the stands because you pre, you're predetermined where you're going to be.
Speaker 4:So it's so hard at so many different levels to teach, to inspire to, to motivate to, you know, to really get people in the door to feel like this is a great experience for our kids. If in fact you make no effort, you know, if it's just like, hey, well, that's what you, that's the, that's the luck of the draw, you know, good, good luck. But I love the fact that, because in Connecticut too, where we're close to here, they recede after a certain amount, after a certain date, and then you get placed where you get placed. So if you're in a Division V championship at the end of the year, those nine-year-olds don't know they're in a division. You know, the dads know, but the kids don't know. They Kids don't know they're just in a playoff. They get to play at the end of the year in a meaningful game. That is a nail-biter and a lot of people might say well, it's the nail-biter of the worst.
Speaker 4:But who cares? They don't know. They don't know until we tell them right. So I think it's unbelievable that the patience and the foresight to say, well, okay, we know what our issues are, we can actually fix them. Because we can. We can right now, proactively put things in place that are going to help us have a better March, even though we knew in September it might have. You know, it's going to be a horror show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that's a good point.
Speaker 2:We, we sit down in the meeting you're talking about, which is usually the Monday before CCM invites. We sit down. There's about five of us sit in a room and we invite any club president or whatever that wants to watch and we go over each level and we're there at 8 in the morning and we usually leave there by 4 or 5 in the afternoon and during that time, like if we'll see an anomaly, we have this team was was eight and one, but they lost to the last place team we will call both hockey directors and have them get a hold of the coach and find out what. What happened here and a lot of times you'll have. Well, I was missing six kids because it was a school function, and so we try and take that into effect. So it's not always record. We dive as deep as we can into it. And and then at the nine and 10 year level, at the lower, the bronze, because we have premier select, which is our top level, which the championships are at the United Center run by the Blackhawks. Then we have the elite level, the gold level, silver, which is tier one, tier two and tier three, so that they have competitive games and then bronze Tier one is where it falls Tier two and tier three. We try and regionalize a little bit more so that they're not traveling as far to play each other. So there's some consideration put into that. I mean, it doesn't always fit because we're not going to make it so okay, you're only traveling three miles but you're losing five to nothing. But if it can be massaged, we massage it. If itaged, we massage. If it can't be, it can't be. So we do all that.
Speaker 2:And then, like you say, the championship experience. By the time you get to the playoffs, the 10u bronze, they don't. They don't know that they're 10u bronze because they go. And our championship show is over two hours. Before the game there's what we have a mom dance, whether, if you go on our website you can see it the mom's dance, why the players are walked out in the dark. Then there's a huge laser show and lights and announcers and they're on it and then they do a rose ceremony where each kid brings the skates and gives his mom a rose and gets a picture, and then they do the warm-ups and then the lights go down and then they sing the national anthem and then it's a whole championship event for even the 10 new bronze.
Speaker 2:So people don't know that. Oh yeah, this is I only won bronze. They well, I won the niole championship. That's all they think about. And actually the funny story is we we televised all our championship games and we televised probably two to three games a week with a crew that does it out of used to be out of a production college, and they did it for free. Now we pay them a nominal amount because they've enjoyed it so much, so they're screened live on. I don't know if it's Facebook or YouTube because that's not my expertise, but it's not. So actually a couple of years ago in a championship game, I got an email from a grandparent that said he was on vacation in Germany and he put the streaming channel on big screen in the bar and got to watch his grandson playing the championship. So that was kind of funny.
Speaker 1:That's pretty awesome.
Speaker 3:I love how you involve the parents and you have, you know, a special recognition for parents. But I'm curious do all the parents buy into this, or do you get some pushback?
Speaker 2:I would say all the parents buy into almost everything that we do. The pushback becomes when parents decide that they're going to take their, their son or daughter and go to the league.
Speaker 3:That is, quote higher level that's what I'm getting at I disagree. My little antennas are going up Because I'm like I imagine there are some parents out there that say my kid's better than this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they're sold a bag of goods that if you're in this league, scouts are watching you and, as I've told several parents, there is no scout going to watch a Tier 2 hockey game. It's not happening. I don't care who's telling you what, you're being lied to. But the other league which I won't name because I don't want to start more bigger than the one I already started with them. But they don't care about fairness. They select the teams and this is really how they do it. This is how silly it is. Select the teams and this is really how they do it. This, this is how silly it is.
Speaker 2:They select the teams in june based on a roster submitted by by the president of each or hockey director of each organization, and tryouts are in september.
Speaker 2:So there are kids on three to four different rosters. They're submitted and then they pick which teams are basically their friends that they let in the league and then they try and sell it to their friends that they let in the league and then they try and sell it to their scouts and then. So that's the biggest problem we have in Illinois is the smaller clubs tend to have some of their better players try and jump to those teams because they think they're in a better league, but in reality the 10-year championship, the whole state championship, was won by a Nile team just two years ago. So they sell them whatever they want, but it's mostly lies, so they can steal kids. Because there's actually clubs I'm sure there are out there that the hockey directors are paid for every kid they bring into the club. Now to me that's a joke and a travesty and they should get rid of that stuff. But they're actually paid.
Speaker 4:Every kid that's brought in.
Speaker 3:They get like, well, yeah, and I think, I think, yeah, I want you to trust this, because I don't think a lot of parents know that they you know they're selling you a bag of goods and there's an incentive for that well and they may or may not.
Speaker 4:I mean listen, I don't, you know, I could, I could care less. I mean, as far as like what everybody like I, I joke around, like here in the East coast and certainly in the Northeast, there's like, oh, that guy's a crook, this guy I go. Listen, we're all in the same boat. We all want to have a good business practice. But I think what I want to really tune in on, bob, is the fact that all the stuff that you were talking about, about how you run the league and having the moms involved and having the the the game streamed and having like that's just an upsell to your league. I mean so if I'm a parent and maybe you could talk a little bit about, you know the combination of usa hockey, the blackhawks, the nhl's initiative and learn to play. Obviously the blackhawks must be involved in some way in helping you grow your um, you know the base of your pyramid or your program because they're involved with you and they have a huge learn to play program and growth initiative. So even if kids, you know, even if, even if parents get disillusioned at certain ages and leave for another program or another league or another town, or you know whether other people are manipulating that that piece. It doesn't seem to be really affecting the success that your league's having, because it sounds like you got a lot of teams and it sounds like more people are coming into the tent. So maybe talk a little bit more about because if I'm a parent now in a different part of the country, I'm like, wow, why doesn't our league do these little things?
Speaker 4:Not the recruiting piece, not really the piece of the unethical piece, because, listen, I think we all have been in programs where you're like looking across, like like I listen, I'm in a lot of programs I sit there and I work with, I'm like, oh, my god, the guy next to me is like he's killing me because this is the worst thing you should be doing.
Speaker 4:But you're in a, you're in a tight spot, right, and you know. So you worry about you and, and I think in this case you know, tell us a little bit about that black hawk relationship, because we have a lot of NHL community outreach people on the show and we get so inspired by hearing about all these great and they all say we have I don't want to say unlimited, I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, but you basically have unlimited access to all these growth initiatives you want to do. If you have the idea and if you have the person that can really communicate this to your NHL club. Maybe talk a little bit about that, that Blackhawk piece and the grow the game piece and how, when these kids do get in the game, it sounds like you guys have the best funnel to keep them in the game the longest and that's true.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna. I'm gonna dive right into that, but before I do that I want to talk about one initiative we have that doesn't affect the kids or the parents. We also have a relationship with the Wounded Warriors Veterans Team. So we do a charity game around our championship, because our championships are so many that there's two weekends, right, so we have to spread them out. We have a top level goes around whatever date the Blackhawk has open at the United Center and then the rest of them play at one of the local rinks Joliet, where we always play and then the other weekend is where we do it.
Speaker 2:So now we have a void, so we slot the Wounded Warriors in and they get all proceeds from the gate and the Chugger Park and during that time go directly to them and then they get to play usually our 18U, the team that doesn't make the championship or the game. So they'll play like the third-best team and it's a good experience because they say it gets them better. And the Chicago Warriors actually won nationals this year and we got a full ball and he thanked me. He said they would have won it anyways, in my opinion, but he said thanks because the extra competition really helped us, but then you know. So that's one of the nice things we do that doesn't involve the parents or anything, but that's your outreach that you were just talking about yeah, but you're giving and you're giving that space and we talked only how many people we've had on the show where they just want access.
Speaker 4:Right, it's not the money, it's not the, it's not the need of players. It's like we want, we don't want, you know, 5 30 am game slot. We want access. We want, like you sounds like you know you're right in the middle of it your prime time, yeah, everybody there for these, these, these wounded vets, and having an opportunity to be, to get the access and the visual piece where you're not hiding them in the, the third rink in the corner at 7 am they're in the main show and that takes a lot of you know, we've talked to many, you know, with blind hockey, with wounded warriors, with special. You know, asha, like, just give me access, give me the chance to put me on the stage and give our athletes the same opportunity as other athletes. So that's, that's awesome. And and, lee, I know we just spoke to somebody recently, right, I said it was just as big for the kids that were probably participating against those guys as the guys themselves.
Speaker 2:So it's great and we already have next year's date. Now the time is either 11 am or one. It rotates around when the state tournament comes out because we have to schedule our championships, so there's no conflicts and then we put them in the other slots.
Speaker 2:But the date is already on our calendar for next year's game. That's awesome. But we used to have a long withstanding relationship with the Chicago Wolves and when that contract came out for renewal I want to say my second year as president on Nihil. They were. They were I don't know if they were a little tighter for money, but they wanted to change a few things. And the Blackhawks have been reaching out for years and there's no hard feelings. I still have a lot of friends at the Wolves. We still do some stuff. We had Nihil Day at the Wolves this year that the Blackhawks approved. So there's still a really good relationship.
Speaker 2:But we decided that for the bigger picture the Blackhawks are a much bigger focal point for all young youth kids. So we took that and we took the Blackhawk deal and we got involved and started out financial and then it evolved as time went on and we went through the COVID years and they got to know us more and they saw what everything was about. They decided last year that they were going to start by hosting our top-level games and our top girl game. Our 16-19 girl game was at the United Center and so that was a big focus for them. They advertised, they send people at our top level.
Speaker 2:We have an all-star game in the middle of the week in January and the Blackhawks send sometimes alumni, sometimes just reps. They give out prizes, so they do up that event very nice. And so the relationship with the Blackhawks just keeps evolving. And this year we're actually talking about expanding the championship and, knock on wood, if the schedules work out, we hope our second level will be hosted by their minor league affiliate in Rockford, which is 45 minutes from some of our clubs. So they're going to put out where we're starting to talk negotiation. We're waiting for the AHL schedule. So hopefully all these things work and it's one more nice little nugget for all the kids involved.
Speaker 1:So Well, Bob, it's a real shame that the Blackhawks don't have any real young generational talent right now. That would be very attractive to kids in that area.
Speaker 2:Well, it's Badaar so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I'm just joking the Badaar effect has been felt just as much as the Kane effect was felt, you know, longer than I'd like to admit ago, bob. I'm writing a lot of notes here and you know what's interesting is, this question keeps coming up in my mind from what we are saying, which is really, what should parents be looking for when they're looking for a league, looking for a team? And I think that that answer at different parts of the country would be very different if we were getting honest answers right. So, um, I have met parents that are all about just win, win, win, no matter what and and, by the way, I'm not judging on anything, I'm just I will give my opinion on this um, I've met parents that are it's very casual for them. Um, I've met parents that are my kid must be at the highest level, or else, um, and I've also met parents that have just, you know, I want my kid to compete. But the things that I'm hearing from you about what make your league successful, which I agree with. Going back to the first couple of questions here, competitiveness is so important. I hate I'm using that word consciously I hate losing and winning by 10, 15 goals. I hate it. It is such a waste of time. It is not a confidence booster in any way. It is a mismatch.
Speaker 1:Prior to this upcoming season, I was approached by my kids' club because there was a question of whether the team my son made was at the appropriate level. And they said well, what do you think? What if we lose every game? I said, well, there's a big difference between losing games three to two and losing games 10 to one. Huge difference, a huge difference. And I said I said two things If it's 10 to one, it's a mismatch. If it's three to two and they're losing every game, you need to find some new coaches. I joked about that, but I said it's. It's a competitive game. You can coach kids in a competitive environment. You're down 10, nothing, constantly. It's almost impossible to to coach those kids and that's not impossible, but it's very improbable. You're going to be able to do that for a full season.
Speaker 2:So not to mention that you'll never know if you got any better, because absolutely, 10 to nothing. You're going to lose. 10 to nothing, right, but if you lose four? To two you might lose four to three.
Speaker 1:The next game right and if you're losing 10, nothing and six, nothing, it doesn't feel great. You might see there might be improvement there. But the point is this this is where coaches come in. Right is that if it's a competitive environment, you can start developing these kids and they're going to develop better. So competitiveness is one. Two uh mike said this word, I don't think we say this enough Meaningful games. I can tell you right now, I have been so blessed in my life to play and coach and win a lot of championships and, with the odd exception, winning a championship is winning a championship. It feels great, you want to be with your teammates, you're elated. Right Now I'm not equating this to the Stanley Cup or anything like that, but when you're in a meaningful game, it's a meaningful game and it doesn't matter what the level is, if the kids are elite or premier or if they can't skate. If it's a meaningful game that matters. You can't have that if you don't have the competitiveness that we talked about. Another one, bob, you said ownership. You don't have the competitiveness that we talked about. Another one, bob, you said ownership. You let the teams kind of have some ownership and accountability on their schedule with the oversight, and I think it's a big deal that you said in the time you've been there. It's very rare that it gets elevated to the top level, right that they have ownership over this. When you have accountability on that, it forces teams to try and play by the rules most of the time, not saying, mike, you're wrong about the gamesmanship, but there is some ownership there. And then the last thing, kind of bringing us to where we are now, is meaningful relationships. If I see my local NHL team as supportive of a league, that's going to matter to me a little bit in my decision process. But I think it all comes down again to we talk about this so much on the show, bob, understanding where your kids at and understanding the environment and the level where they can develop. I don't care how many A's there are after a kid's team name. If they can't compete at that level, they can't compete at that level. And as you said, bob, when it comes to scouts, which is a whole nother show right, or people watching you, right, if you're not developing, it doesn't. It comes to scouts, which is a whole nother show right, or people watching you, right. If you're not developing, it doesn't matter If you don't have the character piece and you treat your parents well and you understand it. Scouts look at that stuff right. So I think that one of the things I'm taking again, parents and, I guess, operational people listen to the show too. Operational people listen to the show too.
Speaker 1:You want to find a competitive environment with the right fit for your kid and your team so that they can develop, especially at the ages we're talking about the 10, the 12, the 14. You, once you get past that it is a little bit of a different conversation depending on what your goals and objectives are in the game. You want to play college or beyond college? Yes, yes, the conversation turns a little bit, but the nativeness doesn't change. You still need to be in a competitive environment. If you're a fourth liner, not getting ice time in 18u, triple a, uh, premier elite, you know. Showcase whatever you want to say, it doesn't matter. You know what I mean. So anyway, bob, I'm gonna throw a box there. I'm gonna throw it back to you I.
Speaker 2:I've answered a couple of them. It's an interesting question what, what, what do I say about jumping clubs? It's different in each area. So what I said on on, actually the local news about a month ago I was interviewed by them to talk about the league and they said what, what do you suggest for for especially young kids? I said here's what I suggest. If you learn to skate it for somewhere, you like the situation, you like the coach, you like the staff, you're around, you like the rink, there's no reason to leave ever. It's a novel concept, bob, but the person that's calling you and saying, please come, you're better than that, they're going to look to replace your son that they're moving, or daughter, daughter the second they get him in, or her, and then the season starts, they're going to be looking to replace him again. If you're in a comfortable place where everything is good, there's no reason to make a change.
Speaker 2:That's a great point. As you get older and better and more skilled and you know you're playing a game and you're so much better than everybody that that may be different. But the club that's coming in and offering you a spot now tier one is different. We all know that. But this, uh, basically a sideways move because our club is better. Why are they poaching a kid if they're developing their own? They're obviously not developing their own or they wouldn't be needing to go take from others. So I say this over and over If the rink is close, if your kid is happy, ask your son, if your daughter, if they're happy, they enjoy their friends, they enjoy their coach. They're not complaining about ice. Every game is fun. There's no reason to move because the situation can only get worse.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you this, bob and Mike and Christy, I want your thoughts on this too. I would say, 80% of the time the parents are making this decision without much consultation with their kid. And I'll tell you. I forget if I told this story on here before, but I had a parent come up to me at the end of last season and say to me hey, convince me to stay here. And I'm a volunteer coach. I said, well, that's not really my job. But I started asking questions. I said, well, look, I'm not going to try and convince you to stay, but what's going on? And he goes well, this team down the road has more practices than us. I said oh, okay. I said is it closer to your house? No, way farther away. I said, okay, well, does your kid want to practice more? He goes no, doesn't like practice.
Speaker 1:This is how this conversation was going. And then I said, okay, I mean, are you unhappy with the development here? I mean these are honest questions. I'm asking. He's like no, no, he loves it here. And I go well, what does he have to say about this? And his parents said to me I swear, swear to god, I haven't asked them and they have gone to this other organization. I wish them the best from the bottom of my heart. I really mean that, okay, but my mind was blown. I will not get into the part where he started asking me about division one college, which happened. By the way, this is a 10? U I'm sorry, 8u player. Yeah, okay, these conversations happen, my friends, I promise you.
Speaker 1:Um, I just couldn't believe that there was no reason to leave, other than what the parent perceived as a better opportunity because it was sold to him that way. Right, and again, I'm not knocking that other organization. Uh, they do have more ice time. They do have more facilities, like. I understand why it's attractive.
Speaker 1:But to your point, bob, there was no need to leave. The kid was having a good time, he had made friends here. He'll do fine out there. I can't say that enough. But parents, you really need to do a pulse check on your kids and see what they want to do, right, I would never want to pull my son away from his friends for what I perceive to be a better opportunity. I might share it with him or my daughter of hey, let's just take a peek at this. Are you interested in this? Let me talk to you about it, but really, at the end of the day, it's their decision. Also, last thing I'll say why the hell would I want to drive 45 more minutes more times a week and pay more money at this age? Why would I do that? It's FOMO. That's why.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 1:And it doesn't make a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I'm on soapboxes all day I'm on anatomy and that's what happens. People are sold these bag of goods and then the parents believe it and they spend hour and hour trying to convince their kid. I have four boys that played. I have a daughter that if she never was at a rink again she'd be the happiest person in the world.
Speaker 2:I had so many daughters at a rink, but I have four boys that play and I can tell you countless times that I'd be on the team and it just. Obviously it's a little different now. But like when they were younger, they'd be like are they playing spring? I go. No, I make them take 45 days off and they're like well, didn't you ever play? I go, I played through college. So, yes, I did play and they need it. And parents would go what are they doing? I go well, they're playing baseball and one of us is cross.
Speaker 1:And they're like mine, doesn't?
Speaker 2:want to. I go, mine don't want to either. But tell them there's no hockey and then see if their mind changes and they're like well, you know, I go, you can force your kid to do whatever you want, but if the kid's not involved in the decision it's going to be a problem. And then on the flip side, you have how many people that say, oh, I'm taking my kid and I'm leaving. And you're like why? Well, the kid wants to do it. And you'll be like I hear you're going, I hear you're going to the local club down the street. Well, yeah, my dad thought it'd be a great idea. And I'm like so you pushed it on your dad, no, no, no, he thought it'd be great. So I said okay, go along with it. So those are the yeah, my kid wanted to.
Speaker 4:Well, of course your kid wants to when you tell happen, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. I think I think the disadvantage of being in this situation right and christy can attribute this too because she's been, you know, in the youth hockey world for for a long time, watching her two kids go through it is when you go through it you just become smarter and you become, you know, I don't want to even say jaded, because I'm I'm jaded, but I, but I think you become, but I think you become really accustomed to like as a hockey director, it was very important for me. I always consciously had to think about every complaint from a parent as it's the first time I ever heard it, because for them it's the first time they ever felt it. And that's so hard to do, right, bob? It's like everybody goes through each season. It's like, yeah, well, that's the same. I'm just repeating the last nine seasons, but to those people it's the first time.
Speaker 4:And I think that's where the educational piece, the, the conversational piece, the, the piece of what, lou Lee, what do we talk about all the time? About, oh, communication, communication's always good.
Speaker 1:10 out of 10 problems involve communication.
Speaker 4:You always have to have that. You always have to have that communication piece in there. Now, if parents don't want to listen and parents don't care and parents think they know better, I mean I had a dad tell me the other day, because he played at a higher level than me in hockey, that he was a better evaluator of talent than me Player higher level than me in hockey, that he was a better evaluator of talent player, mike.
Speaker 4:So you played at a higher level. That's great, by the way, and I'm sure your dad could afford that ivy league. Uh, you know college education he went to, but I know you played at a higher level than me. But I'm watching you make the decision on 10, the 10 of the last kids that you cut, and they're all better than the kids on your team. So I'm, you know, to me it's like where, where would you, you know, have the conversation about the people that are now in charge of your league? How do you approach not selling the league, but how do you approach the fact that you're successful, um, in communicating, obviously, or else the league wouldn't be where it is. You know what are some of the ways you do that.
Speaker 2:I know you mentioned, you know that, the monthly meetings monthly meetings, so obviously, which are now on Zoom because we have six different states and whatever. The only one they have to attend is the is the first one president's meeting where they have to sign, where they're putting other teams, so once we load them in where they belong, if there's a mistake, we go well, you signed it. Then there's a mistake, we go well, you signed it, then there's a fine for that, obviously.
Speaker 2:So, that's the only one they have to attend. But the other thing we do is, like you said, you've got to go through it like it's the first time. We will every maybe once, twice a year, throw out a survey on a topic that we've heard a couple things about, to either all the parents that we have listed or just to the presidents and hockey directors, and if we get, you know you're going to get your crazy answers right, of course, but if you get three or four of the same answer, okay, maybe we need to bring this up at a meeting and talk about it. So the surveys go out. I mean, we got surveyed monkey, so they go out. And then we and we listen to what people have to say. Girls we've actually formed a in the last three years because we have this year we'll have close to 70 girls teams.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's so one, two, three, four different age levels, or maybe we might we we keep the 16s and the 19s combined, so just because there's so many pure, few pure 16s. So a couple years ago we decided to form a girls committee made up on three or four of the hockey directors that have been in the league the longest with girls programs, and we listened to some of the things they said and we've actually made some changes to what we do with the girls based on feedback we've gotten from them and we've we sent the letter out to all the clubs and asked their opinion, and it was overwhelming majority, so we actually made a couple changes in how we run some stuff. So, um, for instance, the biggest change is national bound. Girls in illinois can try out in june, so the tryouts are about to happen. Well, we used to make the everyone scheduled the same time in september.
Speaker 2:Now, once these are over, after two weeks, the National teams only will make their final declaration and then these teams will go and make their whole schedule, so their schedule will be done. However, we give parameters. So it's obviously only for our upper level, which we call National. Our lower level is American, and so we let them make the declaration that they schedule their whole season but they can only play each opponent one time between September 1st and October 15th, and then if there's a team that doesn't belong, they will get moved and they will have to make their own schedule based on the other, knowing they have to work around the teams that already have their schedule done because they seeded correctly. So we actually made that adjustment and changed last year and we're going to continue with it this year. So we do listen to the feedback and we make some changes.
Speaker 1:It's refreshing to hear Bob, because that needs to happen more often than not.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:Mike, to your point. I mean, communication is everything. I think a lot of times we sacrifice communication because of the things we don't want to hear. But it's often from the things we don't want to hear where good changes happen. Right, and I applaud you for having such a large girls program within, within Nihil man. That's not only a growing market, but it's one that needs to be focused on right now for lots of different reasons.
Speaker 3:I'm having technical problems. Can you guys hear me? Yeah, it says that I'm. I've disappeared. I do want to comment, thank you.
Speaker 3:I do want to comment on the importance of communication, because you know the rumor mill can run fast and furious in the hockey circles and that's what I found out over the years is that lack of communication.
Speaker 3:It puts that undertone in there where you get nervous because you don't hear and people are gossiping and you're hearing this and that, and I think sometimes that can lend itself to parents jumping ship too, because there is that open line of communication and also reef facilities to need to communicate with parents because we've had lots of turmoil over the years about the facilities themselves. You hear they're changing hands, oh, they're going to shut one rink down, oh, and again you're like well, what's going to happen to our league? So I think that's important too is keeping those lines of communications open with the facilities themselves, along with parents, and I don't know what kind of situation you guys have with status of rinks, but that's been a big issue in our part, in our neck of the woods well, we, we, we're so big with the amount of championships last year was 24 that, uh, we have the playoffs run at rink host sites.
Speaker 2:So all the rinks are in constant communication with us with ice costs if you're free this but they all put in what we'd like to host this level and then we try and give everybody something. But if six people put in for 12-year silver, then obviously only one can get it. So we're in constant communication with the rinks also. But to your communication point, one of the things I did when I took over and I was president of a club for nine years, so I was communicating with parents all the time so I made it so I would answer any email within 24 hours. So I answer emails Now. Like you said, my biggest fault and I'll be quite honest with you is I'll say what I think is right. Whether you want to hear it or not, I'm going to say it. So, yes, I have offended plenty of people along along the way, but they will still reach out and they'll get my honest opinion.
Speaker 2:Something funny that came of that is I actually got a call about two years ago, an email, and said you don't know me, but my name is. I forget the first name and her last name was thompson and my son, tage, played in your league years ago. Wow, they tried to get him in. They tried to get him into the other league in Illinois but his team was told it wasn't good enough. But we ended up winning your league and he's doing a 360 for ESPN and I need to know if you have the highlights from the game for ESPN. So my first thought, of course, was okay, I'm being scammed, right? I emailed back and I said okay, what's your cell phone number, I'll call you. So within 30 seconds I got a cell phone number. I called her and it was her and I said hold on, I'll put people at our host ranks. And within 24 hours, not only did they get her a link of all three of page Thompson's goals, but we do what we call stars of the game after each playoff game bronze, silver or whatever and that the whole his thing is so weak. She got all the goals and he was better in the game.
Speaker 2:And she got the interview with the TV crew after the game and sent it to ESPN. She thanked me. So she said there game and sent it to ESPN. She thanked me. So she said if there's anything I can ever do for you, let me know. So I called her up and I said would, would? Would? Would Tate's mind if I put this and a testimonial from him about how he loved the league on our website? She said I'll let him know and I've texted Tate Thompson two dozen times in the last year. He's responsive. He did a night. If you go on the Nile dot info website and you look there's a piece from Tate Thompson and that's real, based on the fact that she reached out an email and turned out to be not a scam.
Speaker 1:That's pretty amazing and the Buffalo Sabres, I'm sure, very happy that he did play there.
Speaker 3:Wow, isn't that something.
Speaker 1:That's so cool, Bob. Listen, we're running short on time. I did want to ask this question. I wrote this note down earlier. You had mentioned a ref shortage. With the amount of teams that you have, there's got to be a lot of volunteer coaches. I just want to give you the opportunity to give a shout-out to kind of the people involved in the league. To run an operation of your size, I mean, it's massive. Right, you need a lot of parent volunteers. You also need a lot of elite coaches and high level coaches and then referees, and then I'm not even I didn't even say like managers, team managers and the people involved. Tell me about the Nihil family of people that work behind the scenes and volunteer, because to keep that organized and we talked about all the reasons that something like this would work I imagine is insane. So why don't you give them whatever you want to say about them? Because I'm kind of trying to grasp the size of that amount of volunteers in my mind.
Speaker 2:Sure, I'd love to. So there's two levels of volunteers. There's the paid volunteers, which we have a couple that run the tournament and the budget, okay, so obviously nobody's going to do that amount of work. And then there's the true volunteers, like me, my vice president. They get nothing, no money, right. So there's a group of about eight and it rotates in and out and the part of the tournament director's job is to solicit volunteers from rinks to host the playoff rounds. So I believe we were at eight different facilities this year for playoffs. It might have been 10, but he has to vet who's actually going to decorate, because every playoff rink is decorated, except the 16s and 18s. We just give the kids Gatorade because they don't care anymore. So so they, they. He asked the vet who's actually going to do something and who's not, and this year was actually one of our better years.
Speaker 2:We have the Glacier Ice Arena up up in Vernon Hills, illinois, and we actually had a rink Hammond, indiana. The lobbies were phenomenal and the Hammond one had like a big screen put over the benches so you could see the team logos, and that was for a very low level too. So that was nice. But our highest one at Glacier. We did three of our highest levels there and they did a video montage. Their volunteers went around and called each team manager and team managers and and coaches are picked by the clubs. We really have nothing to do with that, but they went around and called each team manager and sent a three question survey about each kid and asked for those that wanted a headshot and they video montaged every kid all weekend when they were playing.
Speaker 2:Because each one of our playoff formats is different. So our lower levels are our one-place 16, two-place 15 normally as you get into it. I, as a coach for years and played for years, hated the round robin so I got different formats. So our gold and elite levels have a double elimination format and our PSL, which is our top, depending on how many teams, has a double elimination format that mirrors the College World Series. So instead of you play this team best three, it becomes you go to the loser's bracket and you can work your way back up.
Speaker 2:So we have to coordinate and it's constant communication with the rinks during those two weekends because you have to coordinate that not only do they know the playoff format for that level, but they're doing it right because our Golden Elite level we do like the Division III hockey, where it's a best of two point-wise, and then we play a mini game if you need it. So you'll get to game one. It'll be four to four and they'll call you up. They're saying overtime, we'll go. No, there's no overtime. The game can end at a time, but the premier select level cannot end on over. So it's constant communication just to make sure that nothing's going wrong at the exact time. And then we continue to communicate. So then each one of those which is what volunteers call the rink host has to send the score to not only us, but to Joliet or the Blackhawks, where the two championships are run, so that they can prepare for these teams coming in. It is an operation.
Speaker 2:It is a finely tuned operation that's been going on for decades now. If you guys are ever in Chicago in that time I know you're busy with hockey, but if you're ever, you should really check out how the rinks are decorated and some of the fun stuff that goes on for these kids.
Speaker 3:That's why today, glacier Ice Arena shout out, because I think they're one of our followers Best.
Speaker 2:Magic Day, glacier Ice.
Speaker 3:Arena shout out because I think they're one of our followers and, yeah, they're fantastic. So kudos to Glacier Ice Arena.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll say this too, Bob, to close out the episode. You don't need to be in Chicago to look up this league if you're looking for ideas or thoughts on how one of the largest youth hockey organizations does their business, right. I think one of the things and this is one of the purposes of this show is to share this information. You don't have to figure it out by yourself. There's lots of states. Most of them have hockey organizations. You can look at how they're doing it the pros, the cons, and then there's a lot of parents out there too, and I always like to finish by saying to all the parents listening remember, the hockey world's crazy. You're not crazy. For the most part, bob, you've been a fantastic guest. I got a lot of value out of this episode today. Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you, man, and that's going to do it for this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Remember, every episode we've ever recorded, available at OurKidsPlayHockeycom or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And also, if you've got a question, you've got a comment, you've got something you want us to discuss, email us at team at OurKidsPlayHockeycom and we will jump right on that for you. But for Christy Casciano Burns, mike Benelli and Bob Abter, I'm Lee Elias. We'll see you on the next Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network or our website, ourkidsplayhockeycom. Also, make sure to check out our children's book when Hockey Stops at whenhockeystopscom. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of our kids play hockey and we'll see you on the next episode.
