Retired NHLer Jason Podollan on Hockey and Personal Growth

What role does mindset play in the journey from youth hockey to the professional leagues? 

In this episode of "Our Kids Play Hockey," hosts Lee MJ Elias, Christie Casciano, and Mike Bonelli sit down with former NHL player Jason Podollan to explore this crucial question. 

Jason shares his personal experiences, from watching the Vancouver Canucks as a child to winning a provincial championship at 13, and how these moments shaped his path. 

The conversation highlights the significance of mental fitness as a competitive edge, distinguishing it from mental health, and how adopting a growth mindset can transform an athlete's potential. 

Parents will find valuable insights on supporting their children's hockey dreams without overstepping, while Jason's stories of navigating professional hockey offer a candid look at the resilience required to succeed. 

With practical advice like the "Three R's" for handling mistakes, this episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for anyone involved in the world of hockey.

--

3:16 Reflecting on early hockey experiences

7:40 Early career challenges

11:00 Adversity in hockey career

14:34 Pivotal hockey decision

17:43 Challenges in youth hockey

19:58 Parent Empowerment

24:05 Coaching and Child Development

27:37 Challenges in youth sports

30:56 Managing Relationships in Hockey

34:23 Family dynamics and personal development

38:39 Solution-Based Mentality

42:01 NHL Debut and Early Career

45:36 Mindset and career transitions

49:36 Mindset and Competitive Advantage

52:37 Growth Mindset vs. Fixed Mindset

55:02 Growth Mindset in Hockey

58:37 Fostering passion in sports

1:01:47 Athlete mindset and growth

1:05:15 Personal Development in Hockey

1:09:14 Lesson from Mistakes

1:12:51 Mental Health in Sports

1:16:03 Powerful People and Upbringing

1:19:13 Hockey's impact on personal growth and empowerment

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Transcript

Lee MJ Elias [0:08 - 0:43]: Hello hockey friends and families around the world. And welcome to another episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Lee Elias and I'm joined by Christie, Cash Burns and Mike Benelli. You know, as parents, it can be hard not to dream of our kids success in all realms of life. Perhaps even more so as a kid. Our guest today dominated the ranks of youth minor major, junior world junior minor league and pro hockey. And, and his story is one that this audience will enjoy both as a journey through hockey ranks and as an insightful look into the power of mindset and how that plays into our overall journey in life. Please join me in welcoming Jason Pedolin to the show today. Jason, welcome to our Kids Play Hockey. 

Jason Podollan [0:43 - 0:47]: Thanks for having me, guys. Christy, Mike, Lee, really appreciate you having me on. 

Christie Casciano [0:47 - 0:49]: It's an honor to have you with us. 

Lee MJ Elias [0:49 - 1:03]: It totally is, Jason. And you know, Jason, typically when I, when I start, I submit a guest journey in the opening, but your story to the NHL is one that I actually want you to tell. Can you take us back to Vernon, British Columbia, and how you discovered the game as a young boy? 

Jason Podollan [1:04 - 2:54]: Yeah, sure, I'd love to. Hopefully we'll keep this a little entertaining for your crew. For me, I think like a lot of kids being Canadian at least, it's definitely part of the fabric, you know, so you're around it even if you don't even know you're around it. And how I really got exposed to it was through the television, to be honest. Five years old, Vancouver Canucks, we're going to the finals against the Islanders. They were on an unexpected run and you know, we turned, we only had two channels at the time and you turned the TV on and, and there it was. And so that was our provincial town, right? What, one team? One team in all the province. So, you know, the town of Vernon and the entire province was getting behind them and, and as a five year old kid, I mean, I don't necessarily remember like really sitting there, but my dad and mom would say like I would sit there for the entire two hours, like in front of the tv, five years old, and was kind of just entrenched in the game. And I guess that kind of says something intrinsically, obviously that I, that I enjoyed it, you know, from, from a young age. And, and so I fell in love with the Canucks and, and yeah, from there I just started playing hockey that year too. So that was probably a little bit of connection there. So my, my parents had put me into hockey. I was learning how to skate and doing all that stuff and watching These big guys on tv be successful. And so that was where I. Where I fell in love with it. That. That ended up morphing into Pittsburgh Penguins and Mario Lemieux. So he was my guy, and I had the Pittsburgh Penguins logo on the wall of my room and, you know, essentially worship Mario and. And then, yeah, I mean, it was just kind of that love affair. I essentially wanted to be an NHL player at 8. That was when it switched from being, you know, a policeman or. Actually, I think I wanted to be a truck driver, to be honest. That was what I had on my thing. I wanted to be a truck driver through the mountains. And then it switched to being a hockey player at eight years old. So, yeah, that was. That was the beginning. 

Lee MJ Elias [2:54 - 3:06]: That's pretty awesome. And then obviously from there, your journey did take you through all the ranks, right? I mean. I mean, you've played at every major level that anybody can think of. You succeeded. Can you walk us through for the parents listening again? 

Jason Podollan [3:06 - 3:07]: The. 

Lee MJ Elias [3:07 - 3:16]: Okay, you got the spark. Your path keeping in mind, too, we always tell you guys at home listening, there's no correct path. Right. This is just his path to the show. 

Jason Podollan [3:16 - 4:37]: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. And now, I mean, I really find it even more interesting looking back as a dad of three boys who all think they want to play in the NHL too, right. And where they're at in their journeys and what they need or don't need. And then me, in my realm, I was an only child with a father that was doing well enough financially that he could do some things with me, and there was no one else to really think about, right? So. And he was definitely an A type and an entrepreneur and involved. So, like, I did have the dad that maybe rubbed some people the wrong way. So I was in the middle of those interactions sometimes, too, throughout my journey, so maybe we might even want to touch on that potentially later. But he was obviously doing everything out of love and support and my mom as well, and. Yeah, you're just trying to figure it out. I was quite good early, to be honest. I was the kid that was playing up with the older guys all the time and, you know, doing well there. Well enough to be like, top point guy or one of the top guys as an. As a younger player. And. And yeah, so you just kind of. You start feeling that success, you start pushing. You know, back in the. You know, that would have been what. That would have been like late 80s. There wasn't really the fanaticism about, you know, the whole thing, like, now it's such a business, but it is you did. 

Lee MJ Elias [4:37 - 4:40]: You guys listening, by the way? Jason, that's the late 1900s as they. 

Jason Podollan [4:40 - 4:41]: Refer to it now. 

Lee MJ Elias [4:41 - 4:44]: Sorry, I just wanted to throw that in there. Go ahead, buddy. I'm just. 

Jason Podollan [4:45 - 7:22]: But we were trying to be. You're trying to get better, right? You're trying to get better. And, and, and that was a thing. And. And so my first experience with kind of getting in. Into some hot water, let's say, was when the Vernon minor hockey asked me to try out for this team that was older, I think it was a first year Adam or second year Adam. They wanted me to play for the peewee team, try out. Nervous little guy, right? Going out there, do the whole thing, make the team, go up into the booth like with the executives. I'm supposed to sign the card. And, and I was told I was not allowed to sign the card, that I didn't make the team, that I was too young at this point to do it. And so that was like my dad's two first like kind of f you match with people and like, you know, no, this isn't the way it should be and everything else like that. So you mean you get. You step into the political realm quite early, it seems like. And especially I find like sometimes for the players that are better because you're kind of pushing barriers all over the place. And my first kind of. Which is an interesting story probably for, for, for your listeners, is when we went. When I did play peewee as a second year peewee, which that was another fight that I wanted to not play peewee that year. I wanted to play bantam, but they shifted the hitting age and there was this big thing with Vernon minor hockey that they didn't think younger players should play up at that point. So anyways, we end up sticking around. Long story short, we end up winning provincials that year, which I'm so, so grateful for. Like, seriously one of the coolest things that I did in my entire career. You know, played 10 years pro and winning a provincial championship at 13 was fantastic. You know, like our team is still relatively tight. A lot of us are still buddies. I scored a ton of points that year. Like I did. I had, I think I averaged three goals a game that year. I had over 215 points, I think, or 230 and like 40 games, you know. So it was, it was one of those types of seasons for me and obviously felt really good about myself. A lot of confidence, a lot of swagger. We won this, we won this. Championship. But the cool part of that is like from a town of 30,000 people, Vernon, at the time, we had three players on that team that played in the NHL, if you can believe that. Myself, Matt Higgins was a first rounder and Brad Larson, who was a captain of world junior team too, and actually had the longest tenure of all of us and who's still. Who's still coaching with the, with the Flames now. So we had three guys off the team, like, so, I mean, that's super rare, of course, you know, but I just love that from the perspective of like the growth mindset and like the goals and like, who's to tell anyone that it's never going to happen? You know, like, there's some crazy stuff that happens from time to time, and that was one of them that we could, we could have that team and that we could have some players that, that would go on and play in the NHL. So that was a pretty fun, fun. 

Christie Casciano [7:22 - 7:39]: Stop along the way, having that success so early on. I mean, most parents would be absolutely thrilled. So were there some concerns, you know, about burning out too quickly? And. 

Jason Podollan [7:40 - 7:46]: I don't know. I mean, it's funny because last night we went for dinner. Like my dad took us out for dinner and he still revisits some of this stuff. 

Lee MJ Elias [7:46 - 7:46]: Right. 

Jason Podollan [7:46 - 7:53]: And like, and he brought that up as being like this negative time. Right. That it was too easy and I should have been pushed and. 

Christie Casciano [7:53 - 7:53]: Right. 

Jason Podollan [7:53 - 10:58]: You know, and I don't know, like, I completely disagree with him. Like, the next year. The next year was the first big year, you know, for our family because we wanted to now play midget here locally. They wouldn't let me do that. And so we ended up moving and that was my first big boy thing that I did was there was this team called Truitt park, so it's just outside Edmonton. And they were always really quite good. Like Tyson Nash came out of there and Debinski, both Lancome brothers. Anyways, I don't want to bore you with the names, but it was always like this hockey hotbed and. And they would come to our tournament every year and just smoke everybody. This the Sherwood park team and, and. And I was like, well, if I'm going to go play Banham, I'm like, I want to play bantam with these guys. Like, that's. That's where I want to go. So I knew this one guy and we're still buddies today. Mike Dubinsky. I'd never met him personally at the time. And you know, back in the old days with the big phone book and you could look up anybody. And so I, we looked up The Dabinskis and 14 year old Jason Padolan calls Mike Dubinsky, gets him on the phone and I'm like, hey, do you think I can come play for your team? And so he, he goes to his dad who's like kind of a mover and shaker in Sherwood park, and he's like, I got Jason put on the phone, he wants to come out and try out for a team. And. And so Verna's dad was like, yeah, tell him he's coming. You know, he can stay with us. You know, he can stay with us at the beginning. So. So my parents got on the phone with them and worked it out and we came to Sherwood park and I tried out for this team and, and it was funny because it was so competitive. Like it was something that I had never really experienced before. And I remember leaving the first practice and I said to my dad, I'm like, I don. Know if I'm gonna make this team. Anyways, he, he like laughed in my face because like, how it looked to him was definitely different than how it felt for me, you know, like that perspective anyways, end up making the team, end up leading the league in points. You mean like Darcy Tucker was there again? There was like a ton of names that were in that league at the time too. And it was a fantastic year again. Like, we went on, I think we went undefeated until February. Had a great, I mean, just a great team. So it was me, Damon Lankow, who went fifth overall, and Mike Dubinsky were on the line. He went in the third round in the NHL Draft. We had, I think we had six guys on that team playing the NHL. 14 played major junior. Like, it was like it was a wagon and it was a ton of fun. We had a ton of fun. So that was my next stop. I don't know where you want me to go. The next stop after that was playing BC Junior Hockey League at 15 years old. So I played with Paul Korea that year. I was one of two, I think in the league. Like now you have to receive exceptional status to even do it, you know, like it was pretty rare at the time, but it wasn't like there was a, a rule that I had to break to do that. And I got, I had gotten listed the previous year, so I knew I was going to play with Spokane. I guess like the moral of this story for me at least is I kind of did the things that the star was supposed to do. Right. Like, I, I think if most people were going to, we're going to tell somebody, like who in B.C. or who in Western Canada is going to play in the NHL. Like, I was the guy at that time, you mean? I'm. I'm saying that as humbly and as honestly as possible. I think that's kind of the, the beauty of my story is that I never turned out to be an NHL or full time. Right. Yet I was this guy that checked all the boxes all the way through and, and yeah, I mean, maybe that's where the story kind of gets a little bit like, why not? You know, like. 

Lee MJ Elias [10:58 - 10:58]: Exactly. 

Christie Casciano [10:58 - 10:59]: That was my question. 

Mike Bonelli [10:59 - 11:00]: Why not? 

Jason Podollan [11:00 - 14:24]: Yeah. And that is the million dollar question, you know, but it was like that whole ride and you know, Mike, we talked a little bit before we went live was like the adversity aspect and when it gets real and you know, I was, I was essentially along for the ride. I mean, I was a hard worker, I was skilled. I grew early. I mean, I had all these kind of things going for me. I was an early bird birthday and, and got to the WHL at 16, which is not an easy thing to do. And had a fantastic rookie year there. You know, I scored 36 goals as a 16 year old and I think that was the second most in the CHL at the time. I think Jeff Reason had more, I had more than Jeff O'Neill and you know, whatever, you know, it was like I was on the list of being a top 10 pick the next year at the NHL Draft and that was the first time where, like, adversity struck, where I was having a really hard time as a 17 year old. My draft year, after playing for Team Canada, the U17s in Japan and doing all this stuff to, to kind of get going and to get on the ice and, and Brian Maxwell, my coach at the time, who, who. Geez. Like, honestly, looking back, he was, he was as old school as you can get. Like, he really was. And he was a big, tough, intimidating man and he wanted to be intimidating, yet he was a very, very good hockey mind. You know, like, we all respected him. He taught us a ton about the game. You know, I still respect my time with him, but there was just an issue that year with he. What. Whatever lesson he was trying to teach me, and I do think he was probably trying to teach me something, it wasn't working necessarily right. Like it wasn't working between him and I, like, I wanted to be on the ice, I wanted to make it work. It was a big Year for me. I knew that. And, and then that was like, insert my dad now into this equation, right? Seeing his son do all these things and now I'm playing behind all these guys and I'm, you know, kind of weird stuff's happening and that's the triangle. So if Mike, for that scenario, like that was my time at 17 years old being a potential top 10 pick, not getting on the ice, like, and weird scenarios, right? Like we, like just for an example for the parents out there, like the weird stuff that can happen, you think, like it's unfair or you don't deserve it. Like to be in Seattle playing the Thunderbirds and losing the game 4 to 3. I had two goals and an assist and we played them the next night back at home and I dressed and didn't get a shift without even, without even any type of communication from the coach, like about why or why not or whatever, right? And that was back in the day. I mean, that kind of stuff still sort of happens. But like, you look, you sit there at 17 and you're like, why? Like what, what, you know, what happened? What did I do wrong? Who did I. Why are you not happy? And then you have your dad after the game who wants to pack your bag and get out of there, right? And he's putting all this pressure on. So that was a, that was a tough one, like for me, for me, just like, what do you do, right? What do you do? Like you're trying, you're doing the best you can in your 17 year old brain to figure out how to navigate that space. You're trying to figure out how to navigate your parents and your, and your father, you know, exerting pressure on you. You're trying to impress this coach that you're, you know, you really want to impress and you really want to have the respect from. You're listening to the scouts tell you, oh, it's Padol and he's just a spoiled kid. You know what I mean? Max, he's right, you know, oh, it's Padol. And I can't believe that he's actually putting up with this crap. When's he going to leave? Right? So they have all these different voices and it's like you're the one stuck in the middle and all you want to do is play hockey. So I was gonna, yeah, I don't know where you want me to go with that, but. 

Christie Casciano [14:25 - 14:34]: 17 year old to deal with. So how did you sort through it? How did you settle it and how did you overcome that? 

Jason Podollan [14:34 - 17:26]: Yeah, well, It's. I mean, and that's the one too, like, where my dad, if he was on this call, it would actually be super interesting, to be honest. But yeah, like, like he thinks I should have left and like, potentially from a hockey scenario. Yeah, like, maybe he's right, you know, I mean, like, I don't really know because you never know what, what that would look like or demanded a trade. But the weird thing was that happened there and I still don't know the full story. Tim Speltz, who was the GM at the time, says that he was going to tell me at some point, and I think if I, if I backed him into a corner, he probably would. But Brian Maxwell ended up quitting the team, like right before a game, like five minutes before we're going out, it's a home game, and he left his perch and this was like, right when things with him and I were getting, like, really quite heated. And so, I don't know, like, if Brian Maxwell, like, wanted me to get traded and Tim Spelt said no, essentially, you know, we're not trading this kid, like, whatever. I don't really know what happened, but he ends up leaving. So then that whole thing was gone. They brought in a new coach. Didn't really save the year in any capacity. Like, it was better at the end, but it was kind of already a bit floundering. But the idea, to answer your question, Christie, like, my dad respected me enough to allow me the space, you know, so even though he was leaning on me super hard and like, he was telling me exactly what he felt, he did restrain from walking into the room and removing my bag. I mean, he did restrain from, like, forcing me into some type of decision. And, and for me, it was, it was essentially a stand that. You know what? I got this. Like this. I got this. And, and yeah. Was it the right hockey decision? Honestly, I don't know. But, like, looking back at a 17 year old Jason, I'm super freaking proud of, like, what I went through, you know, like, of what I. Of how I handled it, of my intentionality with it, you know, and, and that I was able to stand in the fire and that I didn't run, you know, like, I didn't run because I got, because it got hard. And, and yeah, you mean my. I did go 31st overall, which I guess you mean to. I mean, that's. I shouldn't say. I guess that's something to be very, very proud of at 17 years old to be the person drafted. But when you think you're going to be 10 or 5 or 3, you know what I mean? And then you go 31st. Like, that's like, expectation is everything I say to people and parents. You know, I mean, that. That turns out to feel like it's a very negative thing and into the scheme of things, you mean. Lee, you know as well as anyone, and I guess everyone on this panel, I'm sure does. It does change the trajectory a bit of, like, where you are, you know, I mean, I turned in to be, like, Florida's third pick in the draft, even though I was 31st overall. You know what I mean? So now you're in a different pecking order. There's different lights on you. There's different opportunity. There's all these things that happen because of that. There's different money from you signing, your signing bonus and all this stuff. So it was a very impactful year. And who knows, like I said, if that decision was right. But at the end of the day, I did leave that feeling, like, whatever happens, like, I know that I can probably. 

Mike Bonelli [17:27 - 17:43]: Yeah. Jason, going back to Spokane for a minute and then bringing this to, like, a youth hockey issue. Right? I mean, and you mentioned about the coach and the GM and your dad and you, like all. Most of us, we have no idea what's going on around outside of our bubble. 

Jason Podollan [17:43 - 17:43]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [17:43 - 19:57]: We don't know if that coach is having his own stresses and his own issues. We don't know if the GM has their issues. Like, I think when you bring it. When we bring it down to just a regular AAA youth hockey team, we have, you know, everybody's a volunteer. Everybody is a, you know, they're just getting thrown into this thing. Like nobody's psychologist or psychiatrist or doctor. You know, people can't read in most of. Most of us, as parents are, you know. You know, like you, your dad, this is the first kid they have. Like, they're just dealing with one kid. And, you know, I laugh. Like, I, you know, I don't make the same mistakes. I make different mistakes, but I don't make the same mistakes as I do with my second boy that I did my first. But it's just one of those things where maybe we could talk a little bit about, you know, especially because now you have your kids in hockey and, you know, the youth hockey landscape. I'm not talking about the pro stuff and the, you know, the BCHL and that because that's. There's such a. I mean, you just hit the nail on the head. I mean, you're. You're sitting Here saying, oh, I went 31st overall. I'm like, like, that's a miracle. Like nobody, like the greatest accomplishment in the world that you were even in the ballpark of an NHL player. Like the finest, you know, finite athletes in the, in the universe get to say that, right? But I think for the rest of us, it's really about knowing like, what you can control. And then to your point, like dad helping you make those choices. And I think, you know, Chrissy talked about a little earlier, you know, about the, the snowplow parents and the helicopter parents, the parents that want to do more for our kids. But what can, what can you help us understand about, you know, that point of time that we can relate to in a, in a regular youth hockey world that, listen, you're gonna go through adversity, you're going through these pain points. The coach isn't, you're. Most coaches aren't. And Lee, we talk about this and that's why Lee does what he does, right? Most coaches aren't professional communicators, right? They're just like, holy crap, I gotta deal with my kid and I gotta deal with these other 17 kids. Like, this is hard, right? So I think just, you know, maybe talk a little bit about that landscape of, of the youth hockey world and, you know, maybe some strategies around, you know, how you might look at that differently now that you're a dad. 

Christie Casciano [19:57 - 19:58]: Right? 

Jason Podollan [19:58 - 22:23]: Yeah. Well, I mean, great point. First, nobody, I don't think anywhere wants to be told what to do. Especially you're in a position where you're trying to lead people. So as far as from a parent perspective, like whatever your motivation is, and no matter how passionate you are, like, you need to step away almost probably 19 times out of 20, you know, like whatever that thing is is probably not what you think it is and the best service you can be to your player. And it's things that I say time and time again, and it's how I mentor and coach the players that I work with, is that you arm the player in every situation that you can, that they can navigate it. They have to be the first ones to the party all the time. And it can be age appropriate ways, of course. Like an 8 year old can manage something as they can manage something, like you have to allow them the space to. It totally can, in an age appropriate way. And if it's a 15 year old, they're going to manage it differently, but they need to feel that they have some type of control. You talk about confidence. Like confidence comes from feeling Empowered. When you feel like you don't have control over anything, you're not going to have confidence. So what I try to do with my athletes is make them feel like they have a piece to do with the solution, right? And when you feel like you have solutions, now you feel like you are in control, now you feel like you have confidence. So all those little things. And I mean to your point, Mike, I mean, now I am a dad, right? And now I am a dad that actually knows a hell of a lot about the game and can see through a lot of these things that are happening. And it's easy for me to be like critical and want to get in there and blah, blah, blah. But I step back and I talk to Hudson, I talked to Gunner, I talked to tj and I'm like, hey, how much does this bother you? It bothers me this much. So what do you, what, what do you think your options are right now in this scenario? What could you do? You know, and then abc, what are you willing to do? How much you. I mean, if it bothers you enough, then you might be willing to do this. And if not, then you better suck it up and you just got to go on and do your thing, right? So those are discussions we have. I think that there are maybe times where you can come in as a parent, like maybe back door in a business conversational. Hey, this is how I think that we can help my kid, you know, because he's going through xyz, you know, almost like, hey, how do we have a planned approach to help him? I think that's like the only way that I've ever done it before. And usually coaches are very receptive to that. 

Mike Bonelli [22:23 - 24:02]: Yeah, well, I mean that's, well, that's one I'll let. Sorry, you're good. But, but I mean, but that's what my whole point is, right? That you, you can't, you have a nine year old and if a coach says I'm there, I don't want to talk to the parent, I'm talking to the nine year old. They have to learn how to talk with me. I'm like, the kid is nine and you don't know how to talk to a nine year old either. Like, like I'm, I'm here as my, I'm my son's agent not to get a more ice time, but to look at him and say, okay, is that the answer you want to give? Or. And, and we talked about, I think one of our last podcasts about, you know, coaching. If you're going to throw your kid in there, first of all. You have to be in there, I think. But if you're going to let your son talk, you need to pre coach them on how you're going to approach that coach. Because no adult wants to hear from a nine year old like, and say, this is what it's all about, Coach. This is how I'm gonna, this is how I expect this to go. I'm like, what the hell are you, you know, that's just human nature. That's how people are, I think. But you know, and I, and I, I say it all the time. Like I'm, I, I vividly remember like one, my son in a, something like in an open hockey session or something like that and some kid kept like stealing the puck from him and like cross checking him and you know, doing all kinds of like stuff that wasn't like normal. Like you're like, what the hell is this kid doing? And at one point I'm like, in, like I'm on the sideline saying, put your stick across this kid's teeth like right now, like why are you allowing him to do this? And I ask him later on, like, what the hell's going on? He goes, what? I don't care. Like it didn't even bother him. So, so I think my, my anxiety and my energy level and what I wanted, right. Had nothing to do with what he even thought. Like it wasn't even going through his mind. 

Lee MJ Elias [24:02 - 24:03]: Happens more than you think. 

Mike Bonelli [24:05 - 24:27]: We all inject into this like, you know, like, like your dad, right? You go in there, get your bag, let's get the hell out of here. I'm like, well, I don't know. I, I want to make this work. Like I'm, I'm the one in it. And you, you know, and I think, and you're at a really high pressured situation. I think often with our 9, 10, 11 year olds, we don't allow that process to happen. 

Christie Casciano [24:27 - 24:27]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [24:27 - 24:28]: We just react. 

Lee MJ Elias [24:28 - 27:36]: Well, yeah, I would say too, that, that as coaches we are a little bit responsible for helping that process to happen. And Jason, I got to tell you, I got a page full of notes here, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to go back and forth here, but like, look, just stay on this topic again. You know, let's just stay on the 9, 10 year old kind of age group. Although I think this can happen in every age group. We work into our coaching plans for the season. Not, not one practice. How are we going to help these kids advocate for themselves? And it's little things like in our pre game warm ups, you know, the first third of the season I ran it right, Fully knowing that the second third of the season I was going to start selecting kids to run it. And I want them to do it. And I don't jump in too much. It's like you guys take the responsibility of speaking to each other and if there's a problem, you stop it, you start it. And they, and they love that responsibility, right? And then on top of it too, you know, if there's disagreements on the team, I always like to tell the kids, you have to advocate for yourself, is this something you need me to step in or can you talk to your teammate? Like these are little things. And parent, parents obviously play a role in this as well. You know, with everything. And I think at the end of the day, the key word for me, what I'm trying to develop in addition to hockey skills, which is a given, is some self esteem. Because I think that when you look at today's world with the kind of human highlight reel that social media is, the pressures of today, we're not even talking about in the late 80s, early 90s, Jason, you know, it's like self esteem is something you've got to teach these kids to develop. And then the other part of this. And Jason, we'll throw it back to you in a minute. Mike, you brought this up. It's. And so do you, Jason, like the line for stepping in, right? Like, where's the line for a parent to step in? And the thing is that I believe parents don't understand where you think the line in is. Line is, is so far from the actual line. Right. For example, I, I caught a conversation the other day where someone was saying, how do they expect my 10 year old to get good at right wing when they're moving them around to every position and trying to teach them every position? I'm going to talk to the coach about that. It's like, no, that's, that's exactly what we're supposed to be doing at this age, you know, eight, nine years old. They should be experiencing multiple positions. But it's like I'm going to talk to the coach about that. First thing you should do is, you know, maybe have a conversation with your kid, because your kid's probably going to tell you. What the coach is saying is, I want you to experience all the positions so you can get better at them. That's not the line for me. The line for me is, is a kid seriously being wronged emotionally, physically. Right. Developmentally, like if I feel like that's being stunted with any kid, not even just my own, it's time to step in. Because that's not why we're here. Right. We're here for emotional support, development. Right. And to make sure they can advocate for themselves. So parents, everyone's got to make that up on their own. Like I say it all the time, there's no perfect parents. All right? Every one of us is different. Jason, I do want to dive into your dad and you and that relationship, but just on the topic of what we're talking about, it's a self esteem and, and understanding having kids advocate for themselves. Is that something again with, without my hockey that you do, is that something that you feel like was lacking when you were a kid? 

Jason Podollan [27:37 - 30:23]: I think it's still lacking tremendously. I think it's probably even worse than it was, to be honest, because I think everyone is so worried about. I, I think there's way more, there's way more emphasis on I as us now is kind of how I see it. Yeah. And, and with that becomes a lot of like, I've been wronged, I am the victim. Right. And, and that inherently now there's more problems. Right. So. So yeah, I try and I try and shift the culture to not that at all. Right. So like what are we celebrating? Like if, if there is this, this, this challenge, whatever this challenge is, like that is now hopefully an opportunity if we can view those as opportunities and not. And not injustices. Right. It's actually a gift in some sort if we want to look at it that way. And I think that's the skill, to be honest. Like 100 a skill. So yeah, I can use my, my son Hudson. Right. Like so. And it might be a perfect example. He, he was playing first year U15, so contact hockey, playing for a local double A program like his own program. And he got hurt early, banged his head. So he had a concussion. And you know, first year, 115 pounds, there's 180 pounders in his league, you know, trying to figure that whole space out. And when he's on the shelf now, meaning, like he's not playing, the team's going to tournaments and they're bonding and everything else. And so he came back into the mix not really feeling like he was a part of the team. Not getting a ton of ice time when he came back either. You know, seven, eight minutes as a 14 year old. Like there was tons of feelings inside me that were like, this is not Going the way it should be going, I don't think, you know, and. And yeah, so we had that conversation. Like, how do you get back? How do you feel more connected? Hudson, should someone come up and talk to you? Should you wait for people to come talk to you or should you initiate conversations? Right, right. Would be, like, one thing, you know, do you feel like. Like the coach isn't playing you because you're not ready or because you're not good enough, you know, and do you think that's a conversation you want to have with him to see what he's thinking? And anyway, so we would have those conversations and. And Hudson would navigate them how he thought. And then on the back side of that, I called the coach and I was like, hey, Hudson's feeling left out. And I'm like, that's the really thing. I just don't want. I said, you run your team and you do. You use them how you want. But he's not feeling a part of it right now, and he's feeling isolated. And I. And I think that's not really what you stand. I knew what he stood for. The coach, too. Race. Oh, thank you for telling me that. Right. Was the response. Thank you very much. So. So now I got two things going on. Right. Hudson's trying to help himself. The coach is also trying to like, make. Put a little bit more of a spotlight on him to make him feel more included. And then, you know, dust settles and he starts getting more ice time and he has a great second half and he finishes off the year really well. Like, that could have went vastly differently. 

Lee MJ Elias [30:23 - 30:24]: Right, right. 

Jason Podollan [30:24 - 30:27]: You know, so anyway, sorry, Christy, go ahead. 

Christie Casciano [30:27 - 30:53]: Yeah, I think that's a great example, Jason, of when it's appropriate for a parent to step in because they're looking out for their kids mental health as well. Not so much for my kids not getting playing time and all that for all the wrong reasons. But I think that's a great example of when it's important for parents to step in and be looking out for their kid. And I think parents miss that. 

Jason Podollan [30:53 - 30:54]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [30:54 - 30:56]: You also live with your kid. 

Jason Podollan [30:56 - 32:01]: And Mike, you talked about it too. Like, a lot of times, like, a coach might not know this or a coach isn't this or like, how many times have we talked about personalities already? Right. And so why I'm saying that is because what I try and help with Lee, and I'm not sure if you do too, but like, that interpersonal skill set of, like, managing that, like, to me, and if we did go back to My, to my journey. Like, that's where I made a lot of errors. Not necessarily with what type of hockey I was playing, but with managing the relationships around hockey. Did I have the right relationship with my coach? Was I fostering that? Did I understand what type of person he was and what made him tick? You know, like, those are so important. And when you're a parent, you do want to approach a coach. What type of personality is he? How should he be approached? How. What's going to give you the most successful outcome with that? You mean? Like, I think that is something that is kind of forgotten, too, is that you, you're managing human beings, right? And, and you need to be able to have some type of inner circle around you that wants to lift you up, not push you down. And if you're giving people reasons to push you down, it makes it a heck of a lot harder. Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [32:01 - 33:23]: Jason, we talked about this multiple times on these podcasts, too, about buyer beware. Like, like, don't you, like, if you expect. If you're sitting in December saying, I can't believe this coach won't talk to my kid, and you knew going in that the coach didn't talk to kids and didn't talk to parents, like, was. It was a hey, see you at the banquet type of coach and don't talk to me, and. But if you knew that going in, don't be surprised when you don't get the reaction you want to get, you know, during the season. So I think, you know, Christie says this in her book in the podcast and their articles. Do your research, go into this as a parent and know the program you're going to join and then manage your kid around that program. If you chose to go to a program that has, you know, you said earlier you had an old school. You know, the guy was an old school, like, you know, beat you down coach, if you want that. And you and your son agree that this could be a good fit for you athletically and with the team. And then you need, then you just need to deal with it. You need to learn that, okay, this guy is a nutcase, but there's a part I like about that, and I need that. I don't want it necessarily. And certainly, and certainly the games change from when you played and I played and where kids are now. Right, but, but, and we're, we're all much, hopefully a lot more educated about, you know, how people work with each other. But if that's the coach you chose to go with in April tryouts, don't be shocked in December when that's your coach. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:23 - 33:27]: But Mikey, here's the other thing. There's another half to that too is you got to know yourself as well. 

Jason Podollan [33:28 - 33:28]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:28 - 34:22]: It's not just the coach. You're 100. Correct. You got to know how you are too. Because you know, Jason, to your point, you handled that obviously beautifully with your son. I love that. But sometimes parents, I don't think parents realize you're not advocating for your kid. You just want to be heard. Right. And, and that can be dangerous if you, if you go out of coach the wrong way. I mean, like the example I just gave about the positions, it was handled incorrectly, right? It was. I want to be heard because I'm the parent and I know what, what's best for my kid. It's like, yeah, right, that's. You got to be careful with that, that you got to know what your kid wants. You know, Jason, I wanted to ask you actually going back to that time you said around that, that 16, 17, when the adversity started to really hit you, did anyone stop and ask you what you wanted? Did anybody kind of try and meet you where you were at? Or was it a lot of different people telling you what should be happening? 

Jason Podollan [34:23 - 36:15]: Well, I mean, I guess my dad would have known and my mom would have known like that I wanted to stay. We had some, I would, I would call them honest discussions. Maybe discussions is, is too, too neutral. They're usually a little bit more passionate probably if ever got to. To. To a discussion based thing. Tim Speltz, who was an amazing gm like he never really did, but I think that he was progress, very progressive for the time. You know, he definitely took care of his players and I think he had my best interest at heart. But I truly think, and I could be completely wrong on this but like my dad being the alpha male, that he was a type and Brian Maxwell being almost the exact same personality, I think I got caught in the middle. Like, sure there was stuff I'm sure that Brian Maxwell didn't like about my game, maybe even me from a personality standpoint. But I think it became a little bit of a, you know, I don't know how to put it properly, but you know, like a little bit of a contest between him and my dad. Right. Like, I will do what I want to do when I want to do it. No one's going to tell me how to do it. And almost made it like a statement. And, and I think that that really did hurt as much as my dad was trying to help. I think it really, really ended up hurting me. You know, if he's upstairs in the concourse and he's telling every scout that Jason shouldn't be here and he shouldn't be playing with this guy, and why playing enough, you know, like that, that reflects poorly on me. That also gets back to the coach. You know, there's friction there. And. And, yeah, I mean, the crazy thing is, like, we want it to be about hockey, but all that stuff. And for me personally, it was. It was rarely the hockey that was really the issue. It was the stuff outside of the game that turned out to be the issue. And that's the thing that I'm maybe a little bit hypersensitive now, too, and why I really coach the personal development side along with the hockey skills, because I think that that is, like, the huge piece of the puzzle as far as advancement is concerned. That is overlooked a lot of times. 

Lee MJ Elias [36:15 - 36:37]: You know, I want to pull the thread on that a little bit, bud. And. And let's. Let's talk to those. Those dads and moms that are. Let's. We'll say alphas, like you did. Right? Because here's the deal. I know. I know a lot of parents like that, and they love their kids. Like, there's no question how much they love their children. Right? And I always start with that in my mind of, like, this person loves their kid. 

Jason Podollan [36:37 - 36:37]: That. 

Lee MJ Elias [36:37 - 37:49]: That's why they're. They're being like this. Right? And I'm not necessarily saying what they're thinking is wrong. I'm not saying what they're saying is wrong. But I do want you to tap on the. The kind of how a parent. You have to be careful with this messaging. You got to be aware who's listening, you know, like. Like, I'm in a unique position right now where, you know, I'm kind of like, I put myself in this kind of alternate head coach position on my son's team where when the head coach can't be there, I'm. I. I take the reins for the middle of the bench. But a lot of times I'm sitting in the stands with the parents. Now, I will say that we're very blessed this year to have a really great group of people, but I hear everything. It's like. It's like. I think sometimes you can forget. It's like, guys, I'm right here. Like, I'm sitting right here. Now, to their credit, it usually comes to me as a question, and we have a really great discussion. That's the other Half of this and the benefit. But Jason, let's talk about parents. I'm going to phrase this a question. What is your advice to the passionate parent who loves their kid and really believes in what they're saying and what they're trying to do? What is your advice to that person when their kid is maybe caught in the middle? 

Jason Podollan [37:50 - 38:00]: Well, I think you got to go one step outside of the problem and think about what you actually want. Right. And what you want is a solution. 

Lee MJ Elias [38:01 - 38:01]: Right. 

Jason Podollan [38:01 - 38:30]: So how are you coming at it in a way that is going to get you a solution? And usually like aggression or finger pointing or telling, like, is that really going to help at the end of the day? And generally it makes things worse. Right. Like, generally, like how many times? I don't know. I mean, you can't put a percentage on that. But anytime someone is attacked in any way, whether you threaten someone physically or verbally, telling them that they're stupid, they're doing the wrong thing, like, that's not something that people usually give you a big hug about. 

Lee MJ Elias [38:30 - 38:33]: Right. What I said, you didn't let. 

Jason Podollan [38:33 - 38:34]: You're not listening. 

Mike Bonelli [38:34 - 38:37]: Yeah, but that usually works out. Usually works with officials, though. For sure. 

Christie Casciano [38:38 - 38:39]: That's right. 

Jason Podollan [38:39 - 38:55]: Right. So it's like, I think if you come at it from a solution based mentality. Right. Not, not an emotional, in the moment, I'm standing up for my kid chest beating type way. Right, Right. Like, that is probably the first one that's going to give you a little bit of perspective on how to navigate it better. 

Lee MJ Elias [38:55 - 38:55]: Right. 

Jason Podollan [38:55 - 39:14]: You know, and we're never going to n. I don't think, but, like, at least if that is a bit of a perspective shift, that it's not protectionist mode and it's not, you know, fending, fending off the demons mode. It's more like, hey, how do we work together to find a solution here? I think that they're probably going to make better choices in the moment. Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [39:15 - 40:29]: I'll also say, you know, we say this all the time. Great questions demand great answers. Right. Poor questions are going to get you poor. Why is my kid not doing this? That's a poor question. You know, like, like I, you know, if you have a question for me as a coach, maybe we're playing a system you don't fully understand and you think your kid needs to be more aggressive. I am absolutely okay with a kid or a parent asking me, you know, why. Why is this the way that we're playing the game? I can, I just want to know. I want to learn I'm more than happy to explain it to you. I really mean that. Like, that's me though, right? I know some coaches are not like that. I'm happy to explain the game to anybody who wants to learn the game. Even if you know the game. I'll tell you my thought process. If you approach me the right way as a coach, if you come at me yelling and Mike, you know this, it's like, I'm not, I'm. You're gonna get a pretty quick answer, I'm gonna walk away. Because you're not, you're not here for an answer. You're here to tell me what you think. Right? So, Jason, this is tremendous perspective. I do want to keep going because, like, we're about like, I guess, halfway through your story, right? So, yeah, this is lovely how this is working, right? Like you get drafted. I do want you to tell us because I love the way you described kind of going up, going down, you know, and you know, the opportunities there. I want you to dive into that and tell the people about the, the NHL, AHL side of your journey here. 

Jason Podollan [40:30 - 46:06]: Yeah, it's kind of. Everything was on track, I guess, for. For lack of a better word, you know, I, I played, I played. End up playing four years, I guess, of junior in Spokane. So I played my 19 year old year. I was the last, last cut from Florida two years in a row. So as an 18 year old and as a 19 year old, like was there into the season or right before the season started and got, and got let go, so they felt that I was close. And then the 19 year old years when I got to play for the World Juniors, like, what an amazing opportunity. And geez, I'm so grateful, right, to be selected as one of the 12 best forwards in all of Canada and to win a gold medal in Boston. And you know, it was absolutely unbelievable. And you know, even from my podcast, talking to guys that played in the NHL and played a thousand games, like if they won a gold medal and hadn't won a Stanley cup, like, that is seriously like one of the highlights, right? If not the biggest highlight. So super grateful to have that experience. And, and then coming off the back end of that, I, like, I finished junior like, like a bat out of hell. Had 21 goals in 18 games in the playoffs. So we got to one, one win away from, from getting to the Memorial Cup. Like nobody's done that since. I just looked, somebody told me that the other day, like nobody scored more than 21 goals in the WHO playoffs since I did it like so like finished off hot, got up to Florida, called up after we got left, knocked out. And that was the year Florida went to the finals. So they went to, they played Colorado in the final. They ended up getting swept. But I was there for that whole thing like. And I was actually supposed to play game one when I arrived, Ray Shepard was hurt. I was in the lineup. The team told me I came to the rink like two hours before a game and all of a sudden Ray Shepard had some type of miraculous shoulder recovery during his pregame nap. So, so I wasn't in and, and then. But though. So from there I was like this big splash, right? Come to the NHL, all the way to the finals, in and around the team, seeing all the excitement that was there. And then the next year didn't start with the team. So now as a pro, for the, for the listeners out there, like you, as, as a 19 year old, you can't play in the minors as a 19 year old. Either you're in the NHL or you're in the, in junior. So super close that year. And then the next year didn't make it. But they started me in the AHL and. Which was fine. You know, I mean I, I don't really remember being super disappointed with that, to be honest. Like they just finished that cup run, right? So like they're, they're in that part of their cycle too where they felt that they had a team and they weren't necessarily, you know, promoting youth in that scenario, but went to the HL and had, I don't know, like it was like 20, 20 goals or something in 45 games. I was over a point a game as a 20 year old, which is not easy to do. I mean, especially now with perspective, like in the moment, you just do it. It's kind of fun to look back now and be like, holy crap, that was pretty damn good. Yeah, like, so, so yeah, like was doing well down there, scoring goals, being a, being an impact offensive player. And then when I got called up and they did call me up, they did it in a great way. Like they did in a way of, hey, you're not going to play. Like there was communication there. You're not going to play a ton. You're going to be on the fourth line. We just want you to get comfortable with the league, get your feet wet, you know, I mean, don't feel like there's pressure to produce and you know, we're just going to bring you along. Like, which was pretty ahead of its time I think at the time. But in saying that, you mean I was playing, you know, whatever, seven, eight minutes a game I was with Chris. I mean, not necessarily high offensive end players and you know, and my stats would, would reflect that, but it was fine because it was part of the process, right? It was part of my development process. I understood that they were going to bring me along and I thought that I was going to retire a Florida panther 15 years later. Right? Like is what I thought. And kind of the crazy part, and I don't know if I put that on the website or not, but I. I'd gone up and they'd sent me, actually, I think they had called me up. So I'd scored my NHL goal at that time, which is now turns out to be my 1 NHL goal. Got to go to Pittsburgh. So I just turned 21. My birthday was February 18th. I turned 21 that day and we played the Pittsburgh Penguins in Pittsburgh. Now, I already told you that Mario Lemieux was my idol growing up. To be on the ice with him in Pittsburgh was mind blowing. Like, it really was. I was still in that whole headspace of like, holy crap. Like I am in the league, but I kind of don't feel like I'm supposed to be in the league. Like these guys are here and I'm here and I'm on the same ice as Mario and anyways, had a good game, that game, but it was like one of those things. It's just whether you play well or not, sometimes it's not really about the performance. And I got sent down like three days later. So this massive, huge high. I got sent down and then I was in the, in the AHL again for like a, I don't know, a couple weeks. And I got the, the call. That was when I got the call. It was trade deadline day. And I got moved. And to tell you how naive and green I was, I didn't even know it was trade deadline day. Like, I don't know if it was the time or what, but got woken up from my nap in, in Greensboro and, and yeah, got traded for Kirk Mueller one for one. So like kind of a typical deadline deal, right? Like Florida thought they were going for it, Toronto wasn't in the playoffs. Bring in a veteran guy that's going to help for a top end prospect, you know, And I went the other way. And, and that's one of the ways I start with talking about, like how mindset is so important and it's not about the hockey because I got that phone call. I was asleep For a game in the AHL in three and a half hours, I had my stuff packed. I was gone from that place. Never saw those teammates again. And played the Philadelphia Flyers the next day in Toronto at Madison's at. At Maple Leaf Gardens against the Legion. 

Lee MJ Elias [46:06 - 46:08]: Of Doom, if I'm not mistaken, Right? 

Jason Podollan [46:08 - 48:47]: Yeah. Matched up against Lindros, Leclerc and Renberg. Like, talk about a crazy 24 hours at 21 years old, right? To go through and. And then all. They mean, all the things you're managing in that environment as well, once you even get there, you know, the new dressing room full of new personalities, a new coach that you've never met before, a new division. I'd never played against those guys. I'd never been to a camp with any of them. You know, I essentially knew nobody. And then to a spotlight like Toronto, who. You're the guy coming in that you just got traded for their assistant captain, a beloved member. You know, it was. It was a big deal. And I'm not sure, like, I think I. I don't think I handled that poorly, to be honest. And even looking back, like, I do have some old VHS tapes that my dad just gave me, like, last year, actually, and I was able to watch you kind of have this memory of what it was. I actually played pretty damn good, to be honest. Like, I was. I played well. It was just one of those things that. Well, I don't know where you want to cut in, but, like, the. The thing. There's so many dynamics when it comes to being a pro, right? Like, who likes you, who doesn't. What. What cycle is the team at, what type of impression did you make and when. And. And some of those things maybe didn't go great for me. Like, Mike Johnson, you guys all know him. I'm sure he's still on, you know, NHL Network, and he does a lot of work in broadcasting. Great guy, too. He came in from Bowling Green right when I came there as well. So he was an undrafted guy, right? Undrafted guy, went to Bowling Green, got signed as a free agent two years older than me or maybe one year older than me. And we came in at the same time. If you look at our stats from that year, like those 10, 12 games, we almost had, like, exact stats from that perspective. But then at the end of the year, I was the one that was told to go down to the AHL and play with St. John's Maple Leafs in the. In the playoffs, and he didn't. So, like, already there was, like, a little bit of a hierarchy there for some reason. And which made it my fourth pro team. You guys as a first year pro, right, played with Florida, played with Carolina, played with St. John's play with Toronto Maple Leafs. Like that's a lot, you know, and talk about different areas of the country too. And. And then the GM that traded for me got fired that summer. So that's not a good thing either in how the whole thing works. You know, Neil Smith comes in, he's not trying to make Cliff Fletcher look like this hockey genius by any stretch of the imagination. He wants to put his own spin on it. I don't know how much that affected everything, to be honest, but it definitely affected something because if you guys look at the numbers and the minors, like they would be conducive to saying, hey, he probably should have had a pretty good chance to be a Maple Leaf. And it didn't really work out that way. 

Lee MJ Elias [48:48 - 48:56]: Yeah. Just so you know, you can continue as much. This story is enthralling. This audience has heard me speak enough. So you can always continue as much as you need to on these. 

Christie Casciano [48:57 - 49:15]: Right. I guess maybe we can dive into. And you've talked about this a couple of times. Mention it. Jason. The importance of mindset. And even from, you know, the littles all the way up to the pros, it's so important to have the ability to structure that mindset. 

Jason Podollan [49:15 - 49:15]: Right. 

Christie Casciano [49:15 - 49:36]: So what advice would you share for. We'll start with the athletes first because they're going to face all kinds of ups and downs and you know, your story is a great example on a larger level, all the way up to the pros, to when you were a little kid of everything that you face. And mindset is so critical. 

Jason Podollan [49:36 - 52:09]: Yeah. I mean, I really do believe it is. Without question. I think the biggest, if you're looking for a competitive actual advantage, like it is for sure. I think the number one thing, especially in this day and age when everyone has the physicals tools, you know that they've more. More than they've ever had. Right. So the skill level is very high. Everyone is doing the, the extra when it comes to that. How are you going to be. How are you going to make a difference for yourself? Like what's going on in your head is definitely going to make a difference for yourself from a competitive aspect. The other aspect is though, how about from an like a game enjoyment aspect? Right. Like that is the huge piece for me is like being comfortable so you can be confident, so you can make an impact. So, you know, to go back to my, to my Journey. Like it's, it's. It was hard to be comfortable at 21 in a locker room with Curtis Joseph and Ty Domi and Matt Sundin and, and who I've never met before. Right. And in an environment like that, to play your best. Like, I do think I did a pretty good job of managing that. But having the skill set and like actually treating it like a skill, like how to be comfortable in these environments, like, what would I have done differently walking into that dressing room? What conversations would I have started? You know, who would I, who would I sat next to, you know, who would I have asked to go on for lunch with? Right. Like those are all things that make the person more comfortable, which makes the hockey player better. Right. So to me, I call that mindset because I think those are all choices in the moment that you can, that you have some control over how you're going to handle that. When it comes to the mindset of like managing pressure, managing the spotlight, you know, how, how do you actually bring that to the ice so you can play well? Like, there's so many things that are so beyond whether I could skate, shoot, stick, handle or hit, you know, like that happens in the 60 minutes, but there's so many things that happen prior to that 60 minutes that you need to be able to release. Be in the, be in the, be in the ideal flow state and rock and roll. So yeah, mindset, for me, there's a massive umbrella christie when it comes to that. You know, most people think visualization or meditation or some tools. You know, I, I think like the approach. You think the approach to your career, the approach to your teammates, the approach to your practice habits, that's the, Those are all little choices that are mindset based. And yeah, I mean, I don't know where we want to go with that. Like one of the big things I wish I would have learned earlier was the idea of growth mindset. 

Lee MJ Elias [52:09 - 52:09]: Right. 

Jason Podollan [52:09 - 52:17]: Which has become more popular for sure in this day and age. But if somebody doesn't know what that means, like it's game changing. 

Christie Casciano [52:17 - 52:18]: Explain it, let's talk about it. 

Lee MJ Elias [52:18 - 52:21]: Versus versus Fixed mindset too. 

Jason Podollan [52:21 - 52:37]: Well, it's about, well one, like there's an innate belief kind of around fixed mindset. It's like these are like the talent mongers like that that really love the idea of talent and that either you have it or you don't. Whereas a growth mindset is more like I can learn anything and skills are built. 

Lee MJ Elias [52:37 - 52:37]: Right. 

Jason Podollan [52:37 - 55:02]: Right. So that's sort of like the pretense of how it starts. And Lee, I know you're very well versed on this too, so by all means, jump in if you want to add anything. But. But yeah, like that idea and of itself, like, I think that was one. Now, knowing some of these, these, these belief systems, I believe are also downloadable, right? So we're going to walk into an environment from, you know, a young age. And I think this is where parents come into play too, is like, what type of, what type of belief systems are we downloading on our kids, right? Sometimes we're doing it consciously, sometimes we're doing it unconsciously. And I showed up at the party with this idea that I was good, right? Like, my dad had told me how good I was. The results had shown how good I was. So there was this kind of this innate feeling, not conscious that I was better, right? And I mean that not necessarily in an arrogant way, but it showed up, I think, in like year three, four, five, where I wasn't thinking in a growth mindset of how can I continue to get better, right? Like, where is the advantages for me to improve? Especially when you become a pro, it's kind of a weird mindset because like, you, you are one of the best in the world, right? So it's almost like the scenario of like, you feel like you've arrived. So when you feel like you've arrived, I mean, what are you doing? You're just sort of staying there, right? But I, I did notice that I kind of went like this, right? Just because my mindset wasn't in the right spot to continue to push that envelope. So I don't know if that's a good description of like, growth versus fixed, but I mean, that's how it can show up for, for players, it's like it'll really add to that too because it can really help with the idea of mistakes. Like, if mistakes are viewed from somebody with a fixed mindset as something that we really want to avoid, we don't want to look bad, right? We don't want to expose ourselves necessarily to others, right. As being inferior. This can be a really huge hamper on your. On your performance, right? Because we're playing safe, we're protecting ourselves, we're avoiding challenges and competition where maybe we might get exposed. Whereas if we walk into that with a belief system that says, hey, I am going to find out something about myself in this moment that's going to help me get better, right? Like that. There's a whole different framework now where now we're more willing to lean into Something that we might not get the result that we want. Right. We might fail, we might have a mistake, but we're going to learn from that process. And inherently, that's what we believe is good for us. So, like, that perspective in and of itself is like a game changer because you can choose to believe that. Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [55:02 - 57:25]: It's a real interesting thing when you get into the psyche of people and when you get into people at different ages in different situations. You know, Jason, one of the things that I love actually telling my team, and we'll keep it specific to hockey, is I say to the kids all the time, this whole game is based on capitalizing on other people's mistakes. So inherently, you are going to make mistakes in this game. And I, I tell them that, you know, when we play afraid to make a mistake, you know we're going to make more mistakes, right? And you said it before with, we'll talk about growth mindset. I always love that scene in Mad Men when he goes, everything for you is an opportunity. Right? And it's so true like that. To me, that's what growth mindset is. And you, you explained it so well, right? That every mistake you make is an opportunity to grow. Right? And I tell the kids, I don't want you to make the same mistake ten times. I want you to make it three times and learn. And I said, I will always be there to help teach you. You know, I always use the metaphor, too. I use it physically when I'm talking about scoring on a goalie. I say, are you looking at the goalie or you're looking at the net? And I always, I always say, well, it's like when you, when you go skiing, if you look at trees, you're going to hit a tree, right? You look at the path. And in hockey, if you're only looking at your mistakes, you're doomed. Right? And again, the ability to see a mistake is a growth mindset. And again, I'm not. This is why I think where people get hung up. I'm not saying you should make a mistake and be excited that you had made a mistake mistake. It's the emotional side of it you got to put aside. You're going to feel bad about doing bad plays or making wrong plays. But this is where the growth mindset has to click in. Because if you dwell on the mistake and you dwell on the emotions, now you're in a fixed mindset. You're fixated on this situation, right? So I think that, you know, for the parents listening, the coaches listening, you know, definitely. First off, look up growth mindset. If this is a new term to you, it, it is a real game changer. Jason, you're not wrong. Like, when people start hearing this, it really opens up perspective. But also look at these situations on the. I, I can't stand it when a coach or a parent gets on their kid for a mistake. Unless. Unless you're going to offer them some solution or opportunity on how to do it. Right. I think that that's so important. And then again, there's a whole team aspect to this as well. One more thing I wanted to tap on Jason, too. And Mike, I know you got something too. 

Jason Podollan [57:25 - 57:25]: I. 

Lee MJ Elias [57:25 - 58:34]: It's just something I've noticed, right. I've been watching you the whole podcast. So for those of you listening, Jason, when you talked about being 13 and women that provincial, you lit up. You just completely lit up. You look like a kid again, right? You look like a kid all the time. Don't get me wrong. I'm just saying you lit up. You lit up. And then when we started getting past, I think 17, you said several times, you know, I recently watched that, and you know what? I did better than I thought. Right? So it sounds like when you were a young, let's say tween early teens, you were living pretty present. You were in the moment, you were enjoying yourself, you had your friends, the game was there, it was a wonderful thing. Whereas then suddenly it was, you know, we're looking back right now, we're reviewing from the future back, which is, okay, I actually love the gratitude that you have, and I love the way you're able to look back and say, you know, I did okay. But there's a clear shift there, right? From kind of a present moment mindset to I've got to survive mindset. Now, I guess there's two questions here. Is that what higher level hockey is like, and I think parents should know that. And B, with mindset in mind, can we stay present into that super advanced level of athletics? 

Jason Podollan [58:37 - 1:00:22]: Well, I think maybe I'll just take it from, like, where I take my coaching aspect from. And it's, it's about, it's about encouraging and promoting the passion for the game. For sure. You have to love it, right? So if you don't love it and if you have high aspirations, you're not gonna get there. Promise you. Promise you, right? So at young ages, how can we foster that enthusiasm? How can we foster that passion? How do we foster promotion of excellence? Right. And success so that you feel good about yourself and I think that is. I mean, you talking, listening to you describe my story is great because that is essentially what was happening. Like, I was. There was reason after reason after reason to fall more in love with the game, right? And it wasn't all roses, but there was still, like, it was still a thing to smile about, right? When it. Once it got to be cynicism, jaded, you know, victim mentality, I shouldn't be here, right? Like, all those types of ideas, like, that's where the fun drains, right? That's when it becomes a job. That's when it becomes a chore. And at any moment, like, whether you're 15 or whether you're 25, when it's a chore and you're jaded and you're cynical, you're not going to probably be playing very good, right? So. So when I'm looking at that, like, that's the connection that I try and get players to make all the time, is why are you doing it? Right? And because, you know, and that's the power of mindset again. What are you focused on? I mean, I was focused on being in the Miners and feeling sorry for myself even though I was playing well. Right. I could have been focused on crushing the Miners even more than I was finding everything you were, by the way. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:00:22 - 1:00:26]: Let's. Let's not. Let's not. You were killing it in the minors. Okay. 

Jason Podollan [1:00:26 - 1:00:31]: Yeah. I mean, but. But maybe my energy wasn't awesome. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:00:31 - 1:00:32]: Right? 

Jason Podollan [1:00:32 - 1:00:35]: You know what I mean? Like, and. I don't know, like, I mean, I. I've. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:00:35 - 1:00:35]: I've. 

Jason Podollan [1:00:35 - 1:01:37]: I've actually tried to do a bit of a deep dive. It seems like when I talk to teammates, I don't get any, like, with real honest questions. Like, I. I guess I was a good teammate. Like, a lot of people remember me in a positive way, that I made them feel welcome and comfortable, but I don't think I gave that same energy to management. Like, I'm almost. I'm almost sure I didn't. Like, I was probably the guy that would be avoiding conversations and was a little offish and, you know, handling it that way, and that probably didn't do me any favors at all. I think I was pretty team oriented. I believe that I was always team first and wanted to be respected by the fellas. And then it was an us versus them mentality for me. So, again, notice I use mentality like that's. That's a total choice. I didn't recognize it as a choice in the moment, though, right? In the moment. I was Just on autopilot and operating the best I did that I knew how. No one had taught me about interpersonal relations or how is this behavior, my actions, helping or supporting or discouraging my goals. 

Mike Bonelli [1:01:38 - 1:01:47]: I think, to your point, a person who is in control of your, your destiny, you don't have control of that. 

Jason Podollan [1:01:47 - 1:01:47]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [1:01:47 - 1:03:06]: Your management team does. If they, if they feel like, oh, Jason's a good player, he's popping pucks in the net, he's great, but he's just not, you know, it just doesn't seem like he's, he's not even advocating for us to want to move him on. Like, it's almost like, which is, but maybe not, not even consciously, you knowing that's happening. Right? Like, listen, I'm just focused on my teammates, focused on getting better. But, you know, it's all about, you know, I, I look at it like from a body language perspective too. It's always about like, how are you conducting yourself? Are you a happy person? Are you grateful to be here? Are you, are you fighting to get out of here? Are you content on where you're at? Like all those kind of things? And you just talked about that growth, mindset and wishing you knew that. Then like, imagine if they, if you had you right, you know, when you were, when you were 20 years old, 22 years old, saying, hey, Jason, this is how you could control your life right now. Like, this is, these are things. So, I mean, I guess my question would be, you know, for all of us lay people, you know, what, what are some activities athletes can do to improve their mindset? Because most, most you players will say, I'm working hard, I'm trying my best, I'm doing what the coach is telling me to do. But you know, I, I think I even just saw an article on Tom Brady talking about, you know, his transition from playing to, you know, being in the booth and how he, he loves the mistakes he's making. Like he embraces. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:03:06 - 1:03:06]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [1:03:07 - 1:03:40]: The mistakes he's making and he knows that. He's like, listen, I ain't good at this, but I'm not supposed to be like, I'm, I'm taking this and I'm going to use this to my advantage because I don't mind making a mistake where maybe some of our athletes, a 15 year old, 16 year old, makes a mistake and it's devastating. They don't know how to get out of it and they have nobody around them coaching them to get out of it. You know, so what are some things, what are some Strategies that maybe you can give to the players on, you know, how do you create and that not to give away your business and not to not have anybody go to the website and sign up. 

Jason Podollan [1:03:40 - 1:03:40]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:03:40 - 1:03:43]: I mean, let's promote it real quick. So it's up. My hockey, I love. 

Jason Podollan [1:03:43 - 1:03:44]: I mean, I just look at just. 

Mike Bonelli [1:03:44 - 1:03:45]: The whole piece of it is. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:03:45 - 1:03:45]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [1:03:45 - 1:03:46]: So valuable. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:03:46 - 1:04:03]: Yeah. Jason, I want to make sure we say that it's upmyhockey.com. you have a podcaster. You've got a tremendous amount of resources. Jason's podcast, my friends, he's had some incredible names and guests on his show as well, so make sure that you check that out after this episode. Jason, answer the question. I just, I would have felt remiss if we didn't start Jason. 

Christie Casciano [1:04:03 - 1:04:10]: Just to dovetail on that and how parents can help support their athlete as they work through this. 

Jason Podollan [1:04:10 - 1:04:44]: Yeah, I mean, I try and talk to those players, right. In a stretch of, like, what we're talking about, like, not just celebrating everything that they've done, but usually it's the opposite of like, hey, what went poorly? Or what was your biggest piece and how did you move forward from that? So it's definitely, it's definitely aimed at probably your target audience here too, like, you know, young players trying to, trying to get there and, and parents trying to do the best that they can. But Mike, and I don't mean to be this, like, answering this in a way that is self promotional, but, like, that's the million dollar question I thought was like, okay, how do we, like, and players or parents will come up to me, well, how do you work on mindset? Like, what is that? 

Mike Bonelli [1:04:44 - 1:05:15]: Well, that's what I'm asking. I mean, that's not even so professional. It's like, who, who do you go for? I mean, we, we went to the person who does this. Right? So what, how do you, how do you get out of that? Like, that stuck, like, oh, my God, this is just who I am. And, and, you know, I, I, you know, the coach doesn't believe in me and, and my teammates don't believe in me. And I think I'm working hard, but I don't know, like, what, you know, how do I get myself to believe that just because everybody else is telling me I'm not able to play at this level, that I should be able to play at this level because I want to play at this level. 

Jason Podollan [1:05:15 - 1:09:04]: Right? Well, yeah. So to your point, I was like, when I, when I started getting into this and you mentioned, like, what would I have been like, if I had an older version of me to help, right? And, and I heard something somewhere the other day just saying, like, at your, you know, your darkest or whatever your biggest turmoil is in life, when you come out of that, you've now learned how to help the person that was in that, right? And so, like, I do feel that I'm kind of holding my, my highest purpose right now. Like, I've been in that trench, I've seen it from a perspective and now graduated from that. And I feel like I am kind of in a position to be able to help, you know, and in doing that, I was like, okay, well how do we help these players? I mean, what do we do? And I took it from a, quite frankly, like a personal development approach. So I'm speaking, using hockey language, talking about personal development skills. And like week one of my program is called mental agility. It's based on mental fitness. Like, I believe that mental fitness and mental health are two different things fundamentally. Dr. 100%. I think that if we have strong mental fitness skills, the mental health doesn't even come into the picture because we're equipped with tools that can support our growth and our development and we don't get to these far end stages, right, where kids really, really need help. So that's who I'm speaking to with my stuff. It's like I'm teaching mental fitness through mental fitness. Like, mental agility is a term that I use. Like, how quick can we get from these emotions that hold us back from playing our best to playing our best? So I speak that language of like, you have a goal and you want to play your best hockey. In these moments, there's going to be decisions that you are able to make with some new perspectives right? On how to handle them, which is going to now allow you to play better hockey more consistently, which is what all players want to do, no matter how old they are. So I don't know if that's helpful. Like a lot of people will say, let's even say there's, there's a concept that I teach called the three R's, I call it. So it's a, it's a process to help with mistakes. It's called rewind, replay, reset. So you rewind the mistake mentally in your mind. You replay it without the mistake in it and then you reset and you get back to the moment. It's a really quick process. It can totally help and it does help a ton of players, right? So I obviously, I get more into it in my in my program. But I don't believe, like, that's a band aid in and of itself, because you still are having a big problem with the mistake if you're somebody that dwells on the mistake. So, okay, let's have a tool to deal with it, but let's reframe the wiring around your mistake. Right. So I'm teaching on the front end. I'm teaching. I'm teaching emotional awareness. Like, what emotions support your performance, what emotions don't. Where do you fit in that picture of that? And also what story are you telling yourself about some of these things? So lots of times it's amazing. Like, when a player is presented with a new way to think about what they've previously thought about that actually supports their performance and their goals, it doesn't take much for them to click into that and being like, yeah, this is way better. This is way easier to play when I think these things. And then you also give them, on the other side of it, some tool. Right. To help them with the mistake in the process. Now it becomes more of a seamless kind of journey through it. So what I did is I created a four week program that's online. It's video based. It builds on each other. It is personal development combined with hockey acumen, allowing kids to really conquer their goals and dreams, I think, in a really holistic way. So, I mean, I don't know if I perfected it, but it's definitely seemed like it's had some great, great success. And, and I'm happy that I was able to do that on my, on my wife's suggestion. So I'll throw there for Sarah. 

Christie Casciano [1:09:04 - 1:09:13]: I knew there was a woman behind that. Jason. It's easy to rewind and replay. How do we all get better at resetting? 

Lee MJ Elias [1:09:13 - 1:09:14]: Good question, Christie. 

Jason Podollan [1:09:14 - 1:10:22]: Well, what. I think it's easier to reset when we know what the lesson was, which I think is the biggest thing. Right. A lot of times that mistake will happen and we're fixated, to use Lee's term on it. Right. So we're so emotionally involved and connected to that mistake and the failure of it and what people think of us, what our teammates think of us. How does that make us look? That it's just. It just sits there. Right. And a lot of us have a hard time from being able to leave that and move on. So that replay aspect, it forces the athlete to see where the error was, which is a growth, mindset, inherent product. Right. Like if we get good at that, we automatically go back and we see, okay, I didn't shoulder check going back for that puck on that retrieval, which is why I didn't see that player in the middle of the ice when I tried to go cross ice for the exit, right? So now they replay that. Seeing the shoulder check, seeing the player where it was. Now they, now they wind the net, they're on a wheel, and they skate the puck out of the zone. They feel good about themselves because they found the solution to their problem. They've learned from that mistake, which allows them now to reset because there's nothing to focus on. The lesson's been taught. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:10:22 - 1:11:59]: We, we gotta say it. This is not just limited to hockey. You can do that anywhere. And Jason, to your point, and I love that you say mental fitness, because I say the same thing, right? It's about getting in reps. It's about putting in the workout in your mind to use the point you made, right? About mental health versus mental fitness. If you stay physically fit, your physical health, typically, typically, not all the time, stays pretty good, right? But you've got to do the workouts, you've got to do the gym, you've got to do the physical fitness stuff. Your mind works the same way. And I think that the biggest thing that people in our line of work are trying to break is that you've got to continually do it. It's not a pizza dinner with the team. That, that's a great time. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it. But that is not mental fitness, right? That's a pizza dinner with the team. And finding those reps for each person is always, this is why I love that you didn't say, well, here's the answer. Every single human being has a different process with this. I think the art that you've discovered, and you said this is that you've got to take the time with each person to kind of figure out where they're at along this process, find the right puzzle piece for that moment, right? The same thing. I, I do it from a team standpoint, right? I work with teams as a whole. And I'll tell you what, to everybody listening, when you get 12, 15, 20 people in a room working on their mental fitness together, what do you think that does right now? Everyone's involved, everyone's buying in. You've got a community of people trying to do it, that really changes the perspective, right? 

Jason Podollan [1:11:59 - 1:11:59]: Because. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:11:59 - 1:12:51]: Because while, while the stigma surrounding this stuff is, is bending big time, like, like in recent years, it's so much better than it was just even 10 years ago. It's still not broken. Right. And, and I was just having a great conversation the other day about, you know, how we say or we stigmatize it when we used to say, you need help, buddy. Hey buddy, you need help. That, that person probably really does need help, but you've just said it in a way to them that's embarrassing. Right? So I love that you brought up mental fitness, man. And I love that you're on that journey because that, those conversations, those communities, that's where the solutions lie. Like, I wish it was something like, well, I need a bigger bicep. Well, you know, do bicep curls. Well, the truth is this, there's like seven different ways to build a bigger bicep and we don't know how your bicep looks. I'm just using that as a metaphor, obviously. But, but mental fitness, man, you, that's beautiful that you brought that up. 

Jason Podollan [1:12:51 - 1:13:41]: They. Well, yeah, I, I didn't like that. I mean, and again, from a player perspective, like mental health, psych, sports psychology was just kind of coming into the mainstream, I guess. And maybe not even mainstream, like NHL teams would have it, but it would be somebody. And nothing, taking nothing away from sports psychologists, but the guys in my era were gray haired guys that never played sports ever, and learned it all through books, right? So like the connection factor wasn't necessarily there. Right. Like the approachability factor wasn't really there. And for someone like me, like the respect factor, quite honestly wasn't quite there, you know? And also you had to like, raise your hand to your point and be like, I think there's something wrong with me, which is the last thing you want an NHL player to ever feel like they have to admit to. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:13:41 - 1:13:41]: Right? 

Jason Podollan [1:13:41 - 1:13:53]: Right. Because especially in that era, like we were warriors, right? Like everything about us was supposed to be impenetrable. Right. So for you to say, like, hey, I need some support, like, totally wrong, like the way this, the system was. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:13:53 - 1:13:54]: Was wrong would not have helped. 

Jason Podollan [1:13:54 - 1:14:28]: Yeah, yeah, it doesn't help. Right. So I don't say there's anything wrong with anyone. I mean, if there's some issue that you have with mistake or lower comp, there's nothing wrong with you. You're a human being. Like, do you want to be your best? Like, when that's the starting point of the conversation, don't come at this like, there has to be something ridiculously broken. Come at it from the growth mindset of how do I become the best player I can be? And that is a way more inviting environment. To be in, in my opinion as an athlete. Right. Like, oh, here's this idea that might actually help me. 10, 15, 20. Holy. Wife should probably explore this. Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:14:28 - 1:14:32]: Well, and at the NHL level, if it's 0.5%. 

Mike Bonelli [1:14:32 - 1:14:32]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:14:32 - 1:14:33]: You want that. 

Jason Podollan [1:14:33 - 1:14:51]: Huge difference. Yeah. And that's the thing. Like I, well, Jesus, this isn't a commercial, but this is what I get excited about. Like when you take week one of the program of mental agility and a parent will call me and say that there's other parents in the stands that are approaching them about what happened to little Jimmy. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:14:51 - 1:14:52]: Yeah. 

Jason Podollan [1:14:52 - 1:14:54]: Like, you know how crazy that is. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:14:54 - 1:14:55]: Yeah. 

Jason Podollan [1:14:55 - 1:16:03]: Same skating, same skill, same stick handling, same everything. But it changed up top for them and they're now playing to a greater piece of their potential. Like, how exciting is that? Yeah, you know, like it's, it's crazy how exciting that is. And it's no magic, it's just exposure. And you said about like individuals, I 1000% agree. So what I'm presenting is information and ideas and I tell them that they are building their personal operating manual. So Mike, you were talking earlier about, you know, like, what would you do or how do you help? Like, I want kids to help themselves at the end of the day. Like, I don't want to be the one that has to guide them all over the place. I want them to know them. And the better they know them, the better their self awareness is, the better they pick up the tools. They write their own personal operating manual. They know how they're supposed to prepare. They know what they need to do between games. They know how they should recover after a shift. They know what thoughts they need to think to create the emotions that they want to play their best. Right. Like that's the exciting stuff. That's when you talk about self esteem, self worth, mental fitness. I am in control. I am empowered. In this scenario where I didn't feel like I had power before, that's a big difference. 100%, man. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:16:03 - 1:17:35]: And, and look, we're, we're out of time here for our audience. But I, I gotta say this, Jason, that I think the most powerful people, not just teachers, but the most powerful people are the ones that can look at their own upbringing and say, you know, I, I needed to soothe 17 year old me and I'm gonna teach other people this because I don't want them to feel like I felt. And you can apply that to a lot of different teachers and mentors and trailblazers in the world, but to me, that's the Most powerful. You know what I mean? And it's clear that. That what. What drives you. A lot of things, I'm sure, but it's that, okay, I don't want anybody to feel the way that I felt. And I'm going to share this to try and help as many people as possible. And you deserve to be commended for that. I love how humble you are without my hockey, but the truth is this. It's something everyone should be seeing and listening to and finding because this is the path forward. So for all the parents listening, all the coaches listening, if you haven't made a serious, I'll just say look into this side of upbringing. It's not even hockey, right? Like the mental side of things, it behooves you to do it now. All right, we can teach anybody to take a wrist shot or a snapshot. All right, over time, if. And you, you'll work on that. But if you're not working on the mind in the self esteem and everything you just said about kids advocating for themselves, find their own manual. I love the way you said that. We're doing them a disservice, right? That's. That's got to be part of the process here. Christie, Mike, anything before I close this? 

Christie Casciano [1:17:35 - 1:18:03]: Just kudos to you, Jason, because the timing is just so right right now. And working on the mental agility beyond the hockey rinks, something that these kids is going to be so valuable not just in their game, but in the game of life throughout their lives. If they can develop that mental agility now and apply it in hockey, it's going to reap many rewards throughout their lifetime. 

Jason Podollan [1:18:04 - 1:18:06]: Yeah. Yeah, thanks. 

Mike Bonelli [1:18:06 - 1:19:13]: Yeah, no, I think, I think this stuff is awesome. And I think it's just one of those things where even if you just wanted to get like a taste of, you know, what you're talking about and go to your site and just kind of listen to your podcast, listen what other people are experiencing. You know, it might not be for every player and you might not need, you know, how much in depth help do you need or support or coaxing or whatever it is? I think the best thing is just explore these opportunities that we have, you know, that none of us had right before because we didn't have podcasts and, and web access and, you know, all, you know, you just kind of dealt with it and you said, oh, you know, I, I hope I have somebody in my life that, you know, can step in and help me here. And now you have an opportunity to kind of explore a whole bunch of different people in your life that can help you. And I think it's great for our kids because it is getting worse as far as how they feel and what their self esteem is and how they view themselves because they're viewing hundreds of thousands of other kids. You know, you didn't need to, you know, you only knew the kids in your town, you know, now these kids know everybody in the world. And I think, you know, so we might as well just take everybody in the world and use them to help us as well. 

Jason Podollan [1:19:13 - 1:21:09]: Yeah. Yeah. Lee, if I can finish, and I don't even know how eloquent I'm going to be with this. But, like, for me, for me and for my journey. Christy, you touched on it. The starting point for me is hockey, really, because hockey has given me almost everything, and I am so respectful and so grateful to the sport that I want it to be the best, safest, most empowering place it should be, right? So, like, I want to make the game better, ideally, like from a philosophical standpoint. Now, as a father and seeing life as a whole and not just a player chasing a dream, I see the value, the inherent value of being involved in a team sport like hockey that can be a personal growth mechanism for our players, right? So that is like the next layer for me. How do we make hockey great? How do we make the players within the game more empowered, better people, more ape, more able to manage, Right? And then I get to talk to the players. So the next layer on that is how do you be your best? How do you make your dreams come true, right? And if you can have people have success and be a piece for them on their road to their dreams, like, that's a real cool thing. And if they don't get there, they did a much better job of trying in a more productive way. And if they don't, they're set up right. They've learned a ton of things from the game and from the sport, from the experience that they're going to use wherever it is that they go. So I guess when my hit my. When my head hits the pillow at night, it's like, are all these kids going to make the NHL? No, of course not. But that's not the point. The point is they're feeling good about themselves on their journey. They're taking ownership of their own ride. They're learning all these valuable lessons. Some of them will get to where they want to go. And for those that don't, I guarantee you they're going to be better contributors into whatever aspect that they want to do. So that's kind of like the holistic idea of what it is that I, that I get excited about and, and it's just fun to see the results in the process. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:21:09 - 1:21:11]: That's pretty eloquent, bud. 

Jason Podollan [1:21:11 - 1:21:12]: Like a lot. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:21:13 - 1:21:21]: That was pretty eloquent. I'll let you have the final word there. Well, we're out of time, Jason. Fantastic, fantastic. Hour and a half with you, man. This has been wonderful. 

Jason Podollan [1:21:21 - 1:21:26]: Well, thank you very much. Really appreciate you guys having me on. Love the discussion. Can shoot the crap about hockey anytime. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:21:26 - 1:22:20]: Yeah, man. Well, we'll have you back on another time, but that's going to do it for this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Again, if you have any questions, comments, thoughts you want to ask Jason something, you can text us using the link that accompanies this episode in the show notes. Or you can old school it, which is old school now. Email team and our kids play hockey.com anytime you want. We're here for you guys. You are the best audience in the world and we can't thank you enough. Thanks for listening to this episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. Have a great week and we'll see you next time. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, Our Kids Play Hockey dot com. Also make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops atwhen hockey stops dot com. It's a book that helps helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey and we'll see you on the next episode.