Rethinking Rankings in Youth Hockey

In this thought-provoking episode of Our Kids Play Hockey, hosts Lee Elias and Christie Casciano Burns dive into the controversial world of youth hockey rankings with special guests Ken Ruoff and Jean Linscott, authors of What Is the Goal? The Truth About the Youth Sports Industry. Together, they tackle the tough questions surrounding the impact of rankings, the emphasis on winning over development, and the broader effects of the “youth sports industry” on families and players.

💡 Key Topics Covered:

•The Problem with Rankings: How rankings prioritize “win-now” over long-term development and why this system needs a shift.

•Burnout & Injuries: The alarming statistics on overuse injuries and why 70% of youth athletes quit sports by age 13.

•The Role of Parents & Coaches: Red flags to watch for in youth organizations and how to make choices that prioritize development and fun over prestige.

•Reimagining Success: Why redefining winning as growth, learning, and team bonding can create better experiences for players and families.

Ken and Jean also discuss how their experiences as parents and their research into the billion-dollar youth sports industry inspired their no-nonsense guide for families navigating the chaotic world of youth hockey.

🎧 Tune in to gain actionable insights on creating a healthier, more enjoyable youth sports environment for players and families alike.

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#YouthHockey #HockeyDevelopment #YouthSports #OurKidsPlayHockey #WhatIsTheGoal

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0:00 Intro

1:07 Rankings in youth sports: Stress vs trajectory

6:56 Migrating college practices to youth sports

15:26 Astonishing youth sports statistics revealed

22:54 Redefining winning in youth sports

31:05 Non-nonsense book on youth sports

37:15 Pro-youth sports stance with critical lens

44:12 Red flags in youth sports organizations

50:03 Closing thoughts and contact information

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Transcript

Lee MJ Elias [1:07 - 1:59]: Hello hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another episode of our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Lee Elias and I'm joined by the courageous Christie Casciano Burns. And the mysterious Mike Bonelli is on assignment today and not going to join us. We'll miss him. He's going to miss this episode, Christie. I know that. But depending on where you are and where you play your youth hockey, we're most likely entering a time of season when rankings or league standings are coming into play. While for some these are a guiding point for their team's trajectory, for others they can be a source of great stress. Joining us to discuss rankings and other aspects of youth sports are the authors of what Is the Goal? The Truth about the Youth Sports Industry. I'm holding that up right now. The authors, Jean Lynn Scott, a clinical child psychologist, and Ken Ruoff, an award winning author and historian, are here with us. The two have experience in the hockey world as parents and Ken as a former player. Jean. Ken, welcome to our Kids Play Hockey. 

Ken Ruoff [2:00 - 2:01]: Thanks. Thank you for having us. 

Lee MJ Elias [2:02 - 2:13]: Oh, it's great to have you both. Yeah. Listen, my first question is, I guess for both of you, since we're talking about rankings, let's just jump off with what are your general thoughts on rankings across youth sports in general? 

Ken Ruoff [2:15 - 4:00]: Well, for people who uncritically accept the system as it presently stands, rankings no doubt seem a normal and necessary part of the system. Unless, of course, the metrics that are being used are not in favor of one's own team. But if we step back for a second and ask ourselves whether we're using the best system, I mean, rankings play thoroughly into the win now philosophy and not the developmental philosophy. So it's really not necessarily that difficult for a coach of a very young team, if he or she is coaching in a large population center, to go out and find a bunch of early developers and you know, when, when the kids are 10, 11, 12 years old. It means absolutely nothing in the long run, though, and you're ignoring the developmental part of the equation. Maybe you're so enthralled with the fact that you're highly ranked that you're not even bothered to teach, bothering to teach proper skills. Meanwhile, the late bloomers are perhaps being left around. So for us, the rankings are sort of symbolic of the fact that the system needs a fundamental paradigm shift to return towards development and not, you know, winning. Winning at the early ages. We all like winning, but, you know, does it really mean that much to win at the U10 or the U11 level? 

Christie Casciano [4:01 - 4:11]: And how do we do that, though? Because it's just always been a part of the hockey community. How do we start to reverse that trend? 

Jean Linscott [4:11 - 5:57]: Well, I guess I, I want to speak just in general, to the point of. Rankings will also lead to teams and families having to chase travel, because if you have a ranking, then you're supposed to go to the team that's just as good or maybe better than yours. And travel poses some serious problems to this family system too. Cost, of course, time, of course. And sometimes that can mean too many games with not enough time in between. And then we're talking about leading into the injury problems. So there's a lot of problems associated with ranking. I don't think they're specific to hockey. Other sports do these types of national rankings. So I don't know, just because you've done them, does that mean maybe the focus needs to be shifting back to ways that players can develop more locally? Again, we've had coaches who have said to us over the years, very few of them, but there were some who asked us specifically as a team when we had a very strong team. This particularly was a soccer team. And the coach asked us, do you want to travel? Because we don't need to travel to develop. I, I don't. I'm not here to take your money. And we have ways to develop this team without traveling. 

Christie Casciano [5:57 - 5:58]: Right. 

Jean Linscott [5:58 - 6:23]: So maybe it's a It's a big shift in mindset about how we go about developing our players because we're all for sports, we're all for excellence, we all for developing our local, state and national teams. But many of the statistics say we may be going about this wrong. 

Christie Casciano [6:23 - 6:54]: Right. That you can see the light bulb is going off, but it's not encompassing yet. It's kind of piecemeal. Some people are getting it and others aren't. So when you took a look at the rankings and you made the correlations, what was your reaction when you started, you know, threading it and saying, aha, this is a direct result of rankings. We're seeing this rankings. Tell me how you kind of piece that all together. 

Ken Ruoff [6:56 - 7:48]: Well, a lot of what's going on in, in youth sports today, I think it's perhaps best to think of it as what's going on in college, migrating down to the youth level. You know, we've been quite familiar with rankings at the college level for many decades now. In fact, every morning we wake up to learn who is ranked number one in college football. At least we do during the fall season. So much about the college system has migrated down to the youth system, including sponsors on uniforms, for heaven's sakes. So if I were to begin to answer your $64,000 question, about 64 million. 

Lee MJ Elias [7:48 - 7:51]: Dollar question, you're selling yourself short. 

Ken Ruoff [7:52 - 9:40]: Yeah, seriously. Considering the amount of money involved, maybe it is the multi billion dollar. Perhaps change could quickest come from the national organizations who could just say we're not doing rankings and any team that participates them them in them is not certified as being acceptable for parents to put their kid in. It's also possible because the whole youth sports industry, as is presently set up with the pay to play club teams, is leading to an overuse injury epidemic. So there's also a possibility that the legislatures could step in in the same way that they did with concussions. It all started with one law in the state of Washington and then spread to all of the states also. We're pretty convinced that this is a real long shot. We're not, we're not saying this is on the horizon, but if universities in the US terminated preferential admission for athletics, we think that would fundamentally change the youth sports industry in the US because it's set up in no small part because a lot of parents are chasing preferential admission, which in some cases includes a scholarship, but in many cases just includes, you know, admission to a highly competitive, you know, elite college or university. So those are three possibilities. There are others Also. 

Lee MJ Elias [9:40 - 9:41]: Oh, go ahead, Jean. 

Jean Linscott [9:41 - 10:25]: Well, to come back to your question about how did we piece this all together, I'm remembering when we were younger parents for our oldest who began to travel and we would go to these tournaments and listen to what the parents were talking about. And there was this whole thing of, oh, well, have you seen where this team is ranked? And we said, what a ranking? There's a national ranking. And so Ken started to poke around into it and I would ask silly questions like, well, how do they know that the team from Pennsylvania is better than our team here when we've never played each other? Right. Silly me. 

Christie Casciano [10:25 - 10:44]: Yeah. I think a lot of parents can relate to that. I think there are a lot of parents. We have a lot of new parents listening. They don't realize that there are rankings out there. Maybe you can explain that to them. Who gets ranked? How do you get ranked? And really, does it go all the way down to the youth level? 

Lee MJ Elias [10:44 - 10:48]: I can tell you that it does. I can tell you that it does. 

Christie Casciano [10:48 - 10:55]: I don't think. I think a lot of parents are like, jean, like what? Well, you're ranking yt. What does that even mean? 

Lee MJ Elias [10:55 - 12:42]: I'll hop in here too. So the first ranking period just ended. I'll be honest with you. My kids are 10ua. One of, one of my kids is 10u double A. I haven't looked at them. I have no desire to look at them. We're talking about change. This is where the change starts. I don't care where my kids team is ranked and that's whether they won every game or lost every game. Because as you both said, has nothing to do with where he's at on his hockey journey at this point because a, no one ever is going to ask him, hey, where were you ranked after the first ranking period back in 24 when you were 10? When he's trying to get a job, no one's going to ask that. The other thing too, and you both said this, it has nothing to do with his development and I have no desire to get lost. And, and, and Christie, to your point, we're talking about change here. This is how I approach it. I'm not the authority on it. I'm just sharing how I do it. And this is why I have no interest in it because parents come up to me. Did you see where we're ranked? No. Well, you don't want to know we're ranked. No, because I'm trying to teach these kids how to do F3 high in our zone and this tactic and I'M looking at the skill sets needed to build that skill, because it doesn't matter to me where they're ranked because they need to learn this skill. So kind of to answer your question, Christie, to me, the answer to this starts at the organizational level. Be very blunt. Rankings are not going anywhere. Standings are not going anywhere. All right, Ken, to your point, with nil now in the NCAA and college athletes getting paid, I don't know where that's going to take us. That could become the minor leagues if we're talking college football, and that might actually help or hurt what you're talking about. If we start looking at college football more as minor league football, maybe colleges will go back to what they're supposed to be, which is a place of learning where we can further sciences. And I'll get on a soapbox with that one later. All right, but. 

Christie Casciano [12:42 - 12:44]: All right, there with you, brother. 

Lee MJ Elias [12:44 - 12:53]: Oh, I, I just, I, I, I long for the days where colleges produced unbelievable thinkers and, and, and push things forward again. That's a topic for another time. 

Christie Casciano [12:53 - 12:53]: Right? 

Lee MJ Elias [12:53 - 14:09]: But to me, this is the deal for organizations. It comes to accepting that two, two fundamental things, the rankings are there, and parents want to win. Okay, there's, there's no way around that. I've met so many parents. I want to win. You have to redefine winning. And this is where I think everyone gets lost on it. Winning to me and parents, you do not have to agree with me on this. This is, my definition, has very little to do with the win loss record. Winning, to me is that when they start at the beginning of the season and they end at the end of the season, I've created better hockey players that can move up to the next level, and I am very dedicated to that. And I tell my teams all the time, I'm excited for the team you're going to become. And you start saying this to your kids, it creates a drive in them of like, we need to get better. I want to get better. That's a win. From an organizational standpoint, you got to be really upfront with your coaches and your parents of what the goal is for your organization. And that goal, in my opinion, should be to develop hockey players and people. Right. In the reverse order, actually. People and hockey players, I always say that. Just did it backwards today. And if any parent has a problem with that. Christie, to your point, Jean, to your point. And you want to travel to 17 different cities this year and spend all that money, maybe we're not the organization for you. 

Christie Casciano [14:09 - 14:10]: Right? 

Lee MJ Elias [14:10 - 14:47]: All right. Someone's got to have the guts to say that. And that's, that's where I think people get lost. And, and I'll say this and then I'll throw it back on the group here. I think that take would be so refreshing to people that you would make more money than almost any organization in the country of just saying, look, we actually care about your kids as people. We're doing mental fitness training. We're doing hockey training. We're going to develop these kids. It costs this much money. Do you know how refreshing that would be for people? Right. And again, if your kid, why my kid needs to play Triple A Elite Showcase hockey in Detroit and then fly down to Florida, we're not the organization for you. 

Christie Casciano [14:47 - 14:47]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [14:47 - 15:03]: All right. That's what, that's where this change has to start. We need to do a better job of redefining winning. We need to educate parents that while I love winning and hate losing, and that's true. As a coach, you have to redefine winning. 

Christie Casciano [15:03 - 15:09]: I agree. I agree. And this is a good transition because I know, Lee, this is one of your questions I'm going to ask, and I love it. 

Lee MJ Elias [15:09 - 15:12]: They're our questions. They're our questions. 

Christie Casciano [15:12 - 15:26]: Yeah, we both share, but one's yours. I'm going to steal. It says, what are some of the astonishing or crazy stats that you've come across in youth sports that you think you could share with our listeners right now? Can't wait to hear. 

Jean Linscott [15:26 - 15:58]: Well, the first one that I think is really astonishing to me as someone who has always had sports as part of my family's life as a young kid growing up as, as our lives as high school and Ken as a college athlete. And for our children, sports has always been so important, so much of a joy for us. It was just playing fun, right? 

Christie Casciano [15:58 - 15:59]: As it should. 

Lee MJ Elias [16:00 - 16:01]: Excuse me. 

Christie Casciano [16:01 - 16:03]: As it should be. 

Jean Linscott [16:03 - 16:40]: Yeah. As it should be. But today, what we find, the Aspen Institute has all kinds of incredible research that is being done about sports across the country with their division called Project Play. And so one of the most striking numbers that jumps out to me is that 70% of all youth athletes in this country will quit playing sports by the age of 13. 

Lee MJ Elias [16:40 - 16:42]: I didn't realize it was that high. 

Christie Casciano [16:42 - 16:49]: I heard that. I didn't know it was 70%, but I heard that. Yeah, that's incredible. That is astonishing. 

Jean Linscott [16:50 - 17:44]: And by the age of 13, this is when we need them to be in and engaged and continuing to be loving sports and lifelong physical activity and development, not to mention socially, how we keep them engaged and hopefully out of trouble in high school. Right. So this is really bad news, but I think it is masked in so many ways by the chatter and the prestige of families saying, we're, we're traveling to Florida for the showcase. We just drove past the 60 acre or how many rink hockey complex, 60 acre hockey field complex. Look at all these games that are happening. But the question is, who is not playing? 

Lee MJ Elias [17:45 - 17:45]: Right? 

Christie Casciano [17:45 - 17:45]: Right. 

Jean Linscott [17:45 - 17:47]: The numbers are huge. 

Christie Casciano [17:47 - 18:00]: Right. And Ken, do you think a lot of that, that huge number, 70% is because there's just way too much stress on the kids. They've taken the fun out of youth sports. 

Ken Ruoff [18:00 - 20:35]: I think that because it's not fun is the number one answer to the extent that there's been research done on the kids who quit. And to return a little bit to what Lee said about parents, obviously the, you know, the education towards parents is a, is a, you know, it probably requires both a frank approach at times and a delicate approach. But I think in the end, one way or another, which in a way that doesn't make parents defensive, I mean, we need to ask point blank, is it, is it so important to you to be able to tell your neighbor or your co worker that your kid like won a tournament or went, you know, went on a trip somewhere that you know that you're heading down in the wrong direction in terms of what's actually good for your kid in the long term? Because this is obviously a lot about like parents, prestige, need for prestige and satisfying their ego and not about the kids. So I think if more parents work, ask, you know, that sort of question, maybe we could make some progress. And what becomes especially ironic, by the way, is for people who've been through the system, I mean, to be especially blonde, it means absolutely nothing to me if someone tells me, oh, my kid was at a tournament in San Diego. Because I happen to know there's like 50 tournaments for, during just about any weekend. So it's like, well, so what? You know, but hopefully we can make progress. If I could talk for a second about one huge missing statistic is a little pet peeve of mine. Why don't colleges actually publish statistics about what percentage of kids who attended ID camps actually got a position on the team? Because I think that the one reason is that because the statistic in some cases would either be zero or close to zero, because the ID camps actually don't have much to do with recruiting and have a lot to do with making money to pad the salaries of the coaching staff. And so that's an area where More and more people should be demanding statistics. 

Jean Linscott [20:35 - 21:44]: I also have another one to add to the list. And then maybe you can comment more on our statistics. This is from a UCLA health report in 2019. This is a statistic that's related to soccer players, but I have a long list here of the types of overuse injuries that are connected with hockey as well. But this particular statistic says that one third of preteen and teen soccer players will sustain an ACL tear. One third. And this means that they are undergoing surgeries. The surgery rate is increasing dramatically. And these are injuries that aren't just going to be easier, easily fixed. They are going to have in many cases, a lifelong impact of health risk, including arthritis. 

Christie Casciano [21:44 - 22:24]: Right. My daughter had a meniscus tear at Cleveland Cross. So yeah, she's in that stat. She was 13 and it was very difficult on her. And to this day she still has some residual effect from that. And she did go out and play college hockey. But, you know, there was a time her first year she had to wear a brace, you know, just because she had protected. So, yes, that. And I'm seeing that with a lot of young women in lacrosse too, because it's a. It's a hot bed full of lacrosse where we are. Lots of knee injuries with young girls. Especially him seeing that. Yeah. 

Jean Linscott [22:25 - 22:53]: Yes. And if we didn't care so much about rankings and chasing those college admissions preferences, then we wouldn't necessarily have this year round need to specialize in a single sport. And maybe the club's business model would have to change too because they need us to play year round. 

Christie Casciano [22:54 - 22:55]: That's right. 

Lee MJ Elias [22:55 - 27:02]: I'll dive in here too and say this, that the, the. I'm playing devil's advocate here. There will be parents and kids that say, well, look, we need the rankings to push us. We need the rankings. Iron sharpens iron. And without these rankings, how are we going to know that we're the best? How are we going to know the competition level? And the truth is this like, look, follow me here. I agree with the idea that iron sharpens iron. I do. But I'm not convinced that rankings are the only methodology to discover that. As you said at the top of the show, that can be done internally if you create a team environment where the youth athletes are pushing each other and trust exists. I just put a post out the other day that I was surprised how well it did. Our producers laughing because I'm always surprised at how well post do. But I showed a NHL practice and there were two players doing a corner drill. And, man, they were going at each other maybe harder than a game, all right? And I commented that, you know, when trust exists in a team environment, this is the level of practice that you get, that they are going to challenge each other harder at their own practice than the actual game. That's something I'd like to see us create a little bit more in team sports and what. What rankings do. And again, I'm not. I'm not saying rankings are the evil end of the earth here, but the focus turns away from the internal to the external. And I think as coaches and organizations saying things like, we got to build trust. And I. I see this all the time, especially at the younger ages, that two players will start going at it hard, right? They want to. They want to challenge each other. And it often ends up in an argument because at that age, you don't quite understand what ego is, and. And you don't quite understand how this plays out. And so I had this happen the other day for. For all the youth hockey parents out there. I had two players really going at it, and it started turning towards a negative interaction. So I stopped the drill and I went over them and I said, I love that you're competing so hard, but you can't get hurt mentally that you're trying to beat each other. You need to see this as a great thing, and I want you to challenge each other, but the right way. That message completely changed the polarity of how they were approaching the practice, and they understood of, I need to challenge my teammate. Now, I'm not saying that's going to happen everywhere. Every kid is different. There's different situations. But just that comment, it kind of clicked for them in that moment of, oh, w. Well, this isn't a bad thing, right? We don't do that enough. Right? And again, that's a life skill that goes beyond hockey, beyond sports, right? To just success in general. In my office, I want that. In my office, I. I want people to challenge me to be a better podcast host, a writer, hockey coach, whatever it is. I look for those things from a societal level. And this is where I think ranking takes away. We don't look for those things internally. We look for them externally. Even in pro sports, as a fan, if your team is not ranked high, I mean, think about, oh, that team sucks. That team sucks. They're like some of the best athletes on the planet, and they're just not winning that they suck. Like, we're so brainwashed into this kind of mentality. So I think a lot of it Just comes to parents and organizations, again, flipping the polarity a little bit. And I do believe to the organizational leaders listening today, I do believe if you do that, you'll actually have a positive result. There's a lot of fear. Maybe we can turn the conversation here. There's a lot of fear with rankings that if we don't rank high, people won't come to our program. And look, there probably is some truth in that, depending on who you are, but it doesn't have to be that way. And like, it's like I always say to my, my kids, like, well, how many teams win a championship? One. Yeah, it's really hard to do. Not. It's not for everybody. Right. So, yeah, I'm on a soapbox again here. I apologize back to you guys. 

Ken Ruoff [27:02 - 27:21]: Yeah, I, I think that the rankings are, of course, connected to the tournament circuit. And this whole system has, interestingly enough, turned much of the focus away from practices towards endless games. 

Lee MJ Elias [27:21 - 27:22]: Yeah, it's another problem. 

Ken Ruoff [27:23 - 28:40]: And, you know, when teams go to a tournament, there's no time to practice in between the games. And most of the national organizations have provided guidelines. For example, at such and such age, there's supposed to be, say, four hours of practice for every game. And, you know, it would be a good thing of more of the youth clubs actually followed this because there's no way you can follow that if you're at a tournament. There's basically no practice time. And, you know, what's really happening is even if they're winning, the kids are making the same mistakes over and over again and stuff. They may be winning just because they're bigger, but they're not, you know, playing hockey the way that it needs to be played in the, the, the long run. So. And we've kind of found that there's almost an inverse correlation between the utter irrelevance of winning a tournament. So, for example, if you win something at the U10 level, the size of the trophy they give you is, is so big that, you know, it almost has to be checked as, as luggage and all. And it's like, really? Are you. Are you 10 tournament? 

Christie Casciano [28:42 - 29:01]: Although I gotta tell you. Yeah, you know, tournaments can be fun. I, I'm gonna go back to the year that my son and daughter were playing youth hockey and we were on a great house league and they saved the big tournament for the end of the season. It was in Lake Placid. 

Ken Ruoff [29:02 - 29:02]: Yeah. 

Christie Casciano [29:02 - 29:55]: And it was glorious. It was magical. And the trophy was big. They did win it. And my daughter actually had the game winning score on the 1980 ring. And so those kinds of moments, I mean, she still talks about it to this day. I think a, a healthy dose of tournaments at the end of the season for the kids, that's like a, a huge treat. So you can balance, I think a season reasonably, you might want to do a Christmas tournament, a Thanksgiving tournament, and then in the end of the season tournament. But you're right to put those kids on the road constantly traveling to Chicago, traveling up to Toronto every weekend for tournaments. You're right. It takes away from the development. Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [29:55 - 31:05]: I'll jump in here too, Kristi. Like, this is where we wish Mike was here today. You know, Mike will tell you that in other countries this is not done this way. Right. Practices take precedence over games for very good reason. And you're seeing how the professional, especially in hockey, scales that it does tip because of that. The other thing too is that when you look at tournaments, especially ranked tournaments, what Mike would say, and he's 100% right, is that the vast majority of hockey players are not in that top 5% of players right now. If you're there and you know you're there, great. Right. You're probably on a training plan with USA Hockey or some high level elite hockey that's, that's developing you the right way. The problem is of that other 90%, 70% think they're at that level. Right. And, and, and, and be honest with you, in hockey, we don't do a great job of telling those families in the right way you're not at that level. But we can get you there or we can work towards you getting there. That conversation's not happening because we know, and this Mike always says, right, Christie? Well, that. Not my kid. It's everybody else's kid, not my kid. 

Ken Ruoff [31:05 - 31:05]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [31:05 - 31:28]: You know, so that's part of it too. So I think the way tournaments are developed, I mean, look at the youth levels, like going to Lake Placid is a special time because of the stories, the families. Yeah. You know, you can go to those tournaments, not win a game and have a wonderful time. Right, exactly. But to put a 10 year old or 12 year old in a ranked tournament and say that if we don't win this tournament. Right. It's going to affect our club. 

Christie Casciano [31:28 - 31:28]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [31:28 - 31:52]: We have to do this because we, we, you know, first off, rankings are on the line. Yeah. You can't put that on a 12 year old or a 10 year old. All right. Like, I don't even like state assessments at school to see where the school Ranks like the pressure that they put on the kids for that. You can see it. Kids come home with massive anxiety, like, well, I gotta take the state test to see where we ranked. It's like, this is for funding for the school. 

Christie Casciano [31:52 - 31:54]: Right. And speaking about funding. 

Lee MJ Elias [31:54 - 31:55]: Yeah. 

Christie Casciano [31:55 - 32:12]: And Kat, I'm sure you're gonna speak to this. It is a great selling tool for, for these, you know, organizations to say, look at our rankings. And if you build your rankings, they will come. Unfortunately, they don't get into. 

Ken Ruoff [32:12 - 32:18]: I mean, I actually played hockey as a kid. We weren't far. Actually, we were in Ithaca, New York. 

Christie Casciano [32:18 - 32:20]: So I love Ithaca. 

Ken Ruoff [32:20 - 34:00]: It's gorgeous. Very much hockey and lacrosse and to go to the Hershey tournament. But yes, we did drive there. And to the extent I recall, the parents had selected, you know, budget hotels and it was a big once a year type thing. My, my criticism of the tournament is more of the tournament circuit where, especially if you're in Oregon, if you're going to a tournament, you're flying there. So we are talking major, major expense, which immediately excludes all sorts of families from even thinking 100 about participating. And it can be relentless. Oh, that they're going eventually to 15 tournaments a year that they fly to. And, and so I don't have a problem with the occasional, you know, tournament, but the, the tournament circuit where they're, you know, they do a tournament one week and then they do another one the next weekend before they've even had time to practice. And so not only is there an overuse issue, but I really question. Exactly. I mean, they may be good, but are they getting any better? Because games are typically not the best laboratory for getting better unless you've been prepped during practice that, you know, try this, you know, try this new skill or this new tactic. And if there hasn't been any time to introduce that they're just doing the same thing they did last weekend. 

Christie Casciano [34:00 - 34:03]: Sure. They're not growing, they're not developing. Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [34:03 - 36:12]: And, and the other carrot that they dangle with those tournaments is exposure. You're going to get exposure. And, and yeah, look, again, I, I'm, I don't want to poo poo on these things completely. I, I do think that there is a place for some of these events and some of these rankings. And I want to make sure the audience understands that. Like, I'm not, I'm not sitting here saying I wish they would do away with the entire ranking system completely. I just think we, I wish we would rethink it. Exposure. It's 2024. When we're recording this and we're recording it on zoom, if someone wants to watch you play, they can watch you play, whether it's in person or not. You know, you don't have to travel to 17 different states for exposure nowadays. If anything, if you're that good, they'll come to you. That's the other side of it, unfortunately. Parents, if they're not traveling to see you, you might need to question about where are you at. So I, I think that again, we gotta rethink the wins. And when it comes to development, yeah, listen, you do need games to develop in some way, but man, that practice session of understanding, learning the systems, I can tell you right now, at the pro level and the high level hockey level, there's a problem with creativity and people understanding the game beyond basic kind of go here, go there, movements, right? And we're seeing that. And I think that the next wave of hockey players that quote unquote makes it will separate themselves with that level of creativity. And it's because Ken and Jean, they're, they're practicing or they're being put into environments at practice where they can be creative. I tell my kids all the time as a coach, I will give you a parameter in the game or in the practice that I want you to achieve and it's up to you to be creative to achieve that. And what I see more often than not is coaches, I, I say call them play by play. Okay, I want you to go here, I want you to go there, I want you to do this and then I want you to do that and we'll get a goal. Well, what the hell have you just done? Like the kid. First off, they're going to do exactly what you said and they might get very good at doing what you said, but in a game, when I throw in a little change, you don't have the creativity built up to counter that change. That's a problem. So again, I'm going off an Obviously. 

Christie Casciano [36:13 - 36:22]: You know what I want to get into. Lee, and maybe you can lead us off is your book. Tell us more about it, why you decided to write it. There we go. 

Lee MJ Elias [36:22 - 36:22]: Yeah. 

Christie Casciano [36:22 - 36:31]: What is the goal? What motivated you to write it? And what else can parents learn from picking up your a copy of your book? 

Lee MJ Elias [36:31 - 37:05]: And I do want to add, before you answer that question, this is a non nonsense book. I started reading it and I was astonished in a good way of like, wow, they're really speaking the truth here, right? It's no nonsense. Like here's the Facts. This is it. I want to say this. It doesn't paint a rosy picture, and I'm okay with that. Right. It paints the picture, if that's fair to say. Ken and Jean. Right. You know, like, I think sometimes we look for books of like, make me, make me feel good about my decisions. I think this book's like, listen, we're going to make you think about your decisions. 

Christie Casciano [37:05 - 37:08]: Right. Validate my craziness. We don't do it here. 

Ken Ruoff [37:08 - 37:08]: Right? 

Jean Linscott [37:08 - 37:12]: Yeah. All right. 

Christie Casciano [37:12 - 37:14]: So Jean, tell us more. 

Jean Linscott [37:15 - 38:22]: That was our intention to try to help families be educated, to make the best possible decision for their kids. Because so much of what we learned along the way is not obvious at the beginning or in the middle. It's often when you get to the very end of this trail of your kids youth sports journey that finally all the pieces start to fit together and you understand some of these decisions along the way you would have made really differently had you known what, what you know, at the end. So our, our goal was to, it was twofold. One, it was kind of therapeutic for us to make sense of what we had just gone through and as Ken has sometimes termed it, the UFO that we just experienced in the sports world, that was so different from only a Jeanration ago. And it's not always obvious what's going on. 

Lee MJ Elias [38:22 - 38:23]: Right. 

Jean Linscott [38:23 - 39:17]: There are reasons for it not to be so obvious, in large part because this is a multi billion dollar industry that serves to make a lot of money from its existing business model. So we mowed it, we wrote it to help the parents behind us. We felt it was a responsibility to share what we learned and to help others along the way. We wrote it for our own purposes to make sense of. And we spent so many hours as a couple talking about youth sports in incredibly busy lives and trying to do our best to navigate this, that we finally said, well, I think we have a book and, and let's write it together so that that's how it came about. 

Ken Ruoff [39:19 - 40:13]: Add 30 seconds. You know, I've had some, made some critical comments so far in the podcast, but let me just step back and stress that Jean and I couldn't be more pro youth sports. Oh, yeah, for sure. Youth sports. I think, I think that comes through quickly in the book. And sports tend to be neutral, like a lot of things. Okay. They can be really good or they can be not so good, depending on how you go about it. And we have some issues with what money, okay. The fact that there's so much money involved in youth sports and to be, you know, so much profit to be achieved off of 10 year olds that we think that the system has gone, you know, he's gotten off balance. 

Lee MJ Elias [40:13 - 41:12]: Yeah. And can I. I'll follow that up real quick by just saying too, that, that, yeah, I think it's very clear that you're pro sports. The way I looked at this book was you're asking the questions that are needed to be asked to ensure that youth sports returns or, or moves forward to the benefit that it should be having on our society and that it's becoming big business. And I think that with like, we have a great audience and I love them very much, but I think sometimes in the chaotic hockey world, we're looking for someone to say, oh, those 12 tournaments, it's okay. It's. That's good for your kid. And the thing is, we're not going to do that here. This book kind of makes you ask the question of like, do you really need to be doing this? And sometimes the hard questions are the great questions. Right. And I think a lot of them appear in this book. But yeah, I wanted to back you up. In no way is this like, we need to end youth sports. It's horrible. And like that's. And if I, if I gave that impression at all in this show, I. It was not my intention. 

Christie Casciano [41:12 - 41:46]: Right. And I think parents working with coaches, you can come to that a common ground. I can remember my son's coach in the beginning of the season, he said, look, we can be a tournament team or we can pick a few tournaments and we can be a locally, you know, in, in a house league. What do you parents want to do? And fortunately, we're all rational parents. Everyone said, you know what? We don't want to be on the road every weekend. We want to be maybe an hour away on a Saturday. 

Lee MJ Elias [41:46 - 41:49]: Life, Kristi, you want to have a life outside of this? 

Christie Casciano [41:50 - 42:58]: You know, I gotta be honest with you. We picked a couple of tournaments that, you know, one was Toronto, one was down in Ithaca and. But close within two hours. What a great year. What a great season. We weren't all tired out the kids. There were no injuries that year. The kids were bonded like you wouldn't believe. It was a fantastic year. And we weren't all stressed out and it was affordable. We still had money. Can you believe this? We had money in our budgets at the end of the season that we could actually throw a big party for the kids and have a lot of fun. So I think if you unite and you all come to this conclusion, like, what do we Want for kids. We want our kids to develop. We want them to come get to the next level, you know, successfully and have fun. I think you can all come to that, get the book, because that'll help convince you that there's strength in numbers. If you all come together and figure out what is the goal. What is the goal? It's a great question to ask. 

Lee MJ Elias [42:58 - 43:02]: What a segue to be holding the book up, I'm telling you. 

Jean Linscott [43:02 - 43:07]: Thank you. That's so well said. It's so well said. The parents can work together. 

Christie Casciano [43:07 - 43:08]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [43:09 - 43:55]: It takes a village. It takes a village. And again, I think even sometimes when parents get lost on the win loss column, it's okay to go up to them and say, hey, listen, we're learning again. I, I have teams. One of my favorite teams to coach is, does not have a great record. And I tell the parents, I love coaching this team because these kids show up every practice. To your point, Ken, they want to learn. I'm excited to teach them. I, I mean, I get emotional thinking about, I love it. And I, I could care less about our record. Right. Adversely, I have been on teams that have won, and I am miserable because the kids are snotty brats that don't want to learn anything. Absolutely right. Again, you got to change. What is the win. I have one more question. 

Christie Casciano [43:55 - 43:57]: We should get in the red flags question. 

Lee MJ Elias [43:57 - 44:00]: Yeah, I was just, I was just about to dive in. You want me to do it? 

Christie Casciano [44:00 - 44:10]: So let's get some takeaways. For parents. What are some of the red flags when they're looking at organizations to, you know, stay away from the money grabs? 

Ken Ruoff [44:12 - 46:30]: Well, I have to start by saying that every time we started a new season, this was normally soccer, although it was true for other sports as well. But we did so much soccer. The, the club would have a. A club wide meeting, and sometimes they would even bring in an outside expert to assure us that the club was all about development and, you know, and winning was secondary. And then within a month or so, it would become clear that that was absolute nonsense. Okay? That, that they were very much about winning because they sort of had no choice but to do that. And so you're kind of faced with. You need to poke around and find the clubs and the people who, in spite of the fact that they're embedded in a rough system, are still trying to do the right thing as often as possible, and they're focused on development and not the winning. And the parents need to recognize some red flags with themselves. They need to rethink the sort of questions they ask of coaches and of club directors. Okay. You know, there is a time to go to a club director if there are genuine problems with a coach. But that problem is not your kids playing time. Okay, that is not the problem. Unless it's just ridiculous that you're paying thousands of dollars to send the kid off to a tournament. They get a few minutes of playing time. That might be one instance. But as a basic rule. And so is there development going on? Does the, your kid get better from the beginning of the season to the end of the season? Is your kid having fun especially? And you know, are there signs that it's very much about the money for the club? You know, we eventually learned there were instances it was just outright about the money and not the kids, unfortunately. And so those are. I think Jean can probably provide more red flags. 

Jean Linscott [46:30 - 47:36]: Well, as a parent, I would want to look for the red flag of a club that has some very high or what might seem unusual injury rates. I'd want to know if they keep track of those statistics. I'd also want to know if this is a club that is interested in knowing why players and parents are leaving. I also view it as a red flag if there's pressuring on any level in that kid's sports experience, especially at a young age about staying with that sport year round as their only sport. Whether it be the coach, the director, the players, the parents. That's a big red flag because it puts the kid at risk on so many levels when they have a lot of developing to do physically and emotionally. 

Lee MJ Elias [47:37 - 49:04]: No, I love it. And again, for the parents listening, for the coaches listening, we say it every episode. I think, Christie, that great questions demand great answers. These are questions that are easier to ignore, but you should absolutely be asking them because that's what makes sports great. And I think again, the goal with your book, what, what is the goal? Is to kind of make sports great. Right. And to keep it great and to remind ourselves why we do this, that it should not be an injury plagued, stress filled, anxiety based environment all the time. I do think a small dose of that is good for developing you as a human being. Right. But the state of play, as we say, is, is surrounded like, like your book in this gigantic wad of money. And it's easy just to throw your hands up in the air and say, well, it's just the way it is. Well, the truth is this, if you're listening to this show, we all play a role in, in changing this, right? And sometimes it's the voice in the room saying, you know, the win for me is my kids getting better this season. All right. Or the win for me is that that this coach really cares about developing the team. The win is not. Well, we were the top ranked team once back in 24 in the 12U double A standings. Like as Ken said. Nope. This is gonna sound so harsh. Nobody cares. It's so true. Like, nobody cares. You know, I want to know, how is your kid? How is your kid doing? Go ahead, Gene. 

Jean Linscott [49:04 - 49:16]: Or the win is also that as many kids as possible can play hockey, the great sport of hockey, and will learn to love this sport for the rest of their lives. 

Lee MJ Elias [49:16 - 49:38]: Right, Right. And I'll say to Gene to that, you know, hallelujah with that. But the other thing is that we are not getting everyone into this game that can be in this game. We are taking steps forward with that, but it's. We're not, not anywhere near where we need to be with that. But I, I do think we're starting to go that direction. Christie, anything else before I close this out? 

Christie Casciano [49:38 - 49:56]: These two really, you've helped enlighten us and you've, you've really given us a lot to think about. And what a great guide for parents if they, if they want to get it right. You, you know, you're like the North Star there. Thank you so much. 

Ken Ruoff [49:57 - 49:59]: Thank you. That's very kind of you. 

Jean Linscott [49:59 - 50:03]: Thank you for your interest. It was a really interesting conversation today. 

Lee MJ Elias [50:03 - 50:52]: Well, that's what we love to do here, Gina. Again, the goal is. What is the goal Right available now. I love it. It's on offsides press. That makes probably a soccer thing, but that. We'll take it here for a hockey thing today. And you can check that book out right now, wherever they're sold. Listen, Ken Jean, thanks so much for having you here. I'm going to echo what Christie said, but that's going to do it for this edition of our Kids Play Hockey. For those of you listening, this episode had to drum up some questions. So if you have questions, text them to us. There's a link accompanying this episode in the show notes. You can tap it. The text comes right to us. We see those all the time when they come through. Or if you're old school, which is the way he says now, you can email us team@ourkids playhockey.com. yes, that has become old school. But we want to hear from you. We want to hear your thoughts on this episode. If you really disagree with anything we've said. 

Ken Ruoff [50:53 - 50:53]: We. 

Lee MJ Elias [50:53 - 51:05]: We really do want to hear from you because that discussion needs to take place. And if we're not talking, nothing changes. And that's why we we invited you both on today and that's why this was such a great episode. So thanks for being here. 

Ken Ruoff [51:06 - 51:08]: Thanks again for your interest. 

Lee MJ Elias [51:08 - 51:20]: Anytime, guys. All right, that's going to do it for this episode. Remember, all the episodes available forever episodes can be heard. I'm Lee. That's Christie, Ken and Jean. We'll see you next time on Our Kids Play Hockey. We hope you enjoyed this edition of. 

Lee MJ Elias [51:20 - 51:41]: Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kids kids playhockey.com also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops atwhen hockey stops dot com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. 

Lee MJ Elias [51:41 - 51:42]: We're very proud of it. 

Lee MJ Elias [51:42 - 51:45]: But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. 

Lee MJ Elias [51:45 - 51:46]: And we'll see you on the next episode.