What's Wrong With Youth Hockey With NHLer Chris Therien

🏒 What does it take to create a positive experience in youth hockey?

In this insightful episode of Our Kids Play Hockey, former NHL defenseman and mental health advocate Chris Therien joins Lee, Christie, and Mike to dive deep into the challenges and opportunities in youth hockey today. Drawing from his 12-year NHL career and personal experiences as a coach and parent, Chris shares hard-earned wisdom on how parents, coaches, and players can navigate the sport’s evolving landscape.

🔥 Topics Include:

•The power of adversity: How being cut from a team at 14 shaped Chris’s career and life.

•Youth hockey’s commercialization: Why the shift from community to business is impacting development.

•Parenting in sports: Are we focusing on the right goals for our kids?

•The role of coaches: How great coaches can inspire love for the game while developing life skills.

•Lessons from the pros: Chris shares the secrets of team-building and mental resilience learned in his NHL career.

Whether you’re a parent, player, or coach, this episode is a must-listen for anyone passionate about creating better experiences in youth sports.

🎧 Tune in now to learn how we can all help our kids thrive on and off the ice!

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📖 Learn more about Chris in his book The Road to Redemption.

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#OurKidsPlayHockey #ChrisTherien #YouthSports #MentalHealth #HockeyLife

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Transcript

Lee MJ Elias [0:08 - 0:53]: Hello, hockey friends and families around the world. And welcome to another episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Lee Elias and I'm joined by Christie, Cashier Burns and Mike Benelli. Our guest today, Chris Tarrion, is A veteran of 12 NHL seasons, a seasoned hockey analyst, a host of the top ranked hockey podcast Snow the Goalie, and is an author, having released his book the Road to redemption in 2022. While many of you will remember and know the man many of us fondly call Bundy for his years in the NHL, in our show today, you will see that he is someone who looks to champion mental health and wellness. And as always on this show, we like to mention that Chris is a proud father of four children, three girls and a son, all who have played sports and found success in that arena. And the sports are not limited to hockey. 

Chris Therien [0:53 - 0:53]: Go figure. 

Lee MJ Elias [0:53 - 0:56]: Chris, welcome to Our Kids Play Hockey. 

Chris Therien [0:56 - 1:02]: Thanks a lot, Lee. It's great to be here with you guys. I really appreciate it. I know you guys do great things and I'm looking forward to a good conversation here today. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:03 - 1:35]: Oh, me too. Chris, I'm going to say it again. I've been watching you my whole life. I have so much respect for you as a person, as a player, as a father, and I really can't wait to dive into those things today. But I do want to start, you know, your NHL career with the Flyers. A story in my area. You hold the record for most games played by a defenseman. But I want to go all the way back to your early days in Ottawa, watching your father play for the Maple Leafs and the events that shaped you into the person and player you would become. Tell us the minor hockey story and that journey. I know it's not as linear as people think. 

Chris Therien [1:36 - 3:22]: Yeah, well, my dad, my dad actually went to St. Mark's which was a. Was the feeding team for the Toronto Maple Leafs. They had that used to go college road. So my dad's story was that he sat on the bench for the Toronto Maple Leafs in a game with two other line mates, but never got on the ice, but he actually was. Was in a game. So. But yeah, I mean, I had, you know, when I look back at my hockey journey, I mean, I had hockey all around me. I grew up in Ottawa. We had the longest skating rink in the world with the Rito Canal. My dad had. My dad had played both at St. Mike's in Toronto and went on a Division 1 scholarship to St. Lawrence in Canton, New York. So he played four years of college hockey as well. And when Ever since I was a kid, that was always his vision for me was, you know, to be a hockey player. My mom and dad, specifically my dad, but be a, a U.S. collegiate rather than taking a major, the major junior route. You know, he just felt like education was the way to go. And to get your education while playing a sport was certainly the best of both worlds. So, you know, but I mean, I grew up in a very hockey centric family. I mean, that was my life. It was me and my little sister and we were at the hockey rink most of the time. She didn't play, but I was there. And I mean, it was a, you know, like it is now. It was double A back then. Now that they have double A and triple A and it moves up and they just find new ways to put new logos and labels on teams and players. But, you know, hockey was my thing and I did, you know, everything there was to do. If there was an outdoor rink on a night off, I was at the outdoor rink. You know, if there was a night to get dropped off at one end of the canal and picked up at the other, I would do that too. So I had a great childhood. It was cold, but it was hockey weather. And it's certainly the passion that I remember. Looking back at my childhood as a kid, it was very emblematic of hockey being very much a part of that. 

Christie Casciano [3:22 - 3:31]: So you're a pretty good hockey player and you were having fun. And then it didn't get so fun at age 14, did it? Took a turn. 

Chris Therien [3:31 - 5:29]: Oh, you know what, and this, this was my story, you know, I. No, what happened was, is that, and I mean, you almost can't wish this story on somebody because the end result, like, you know, I end up going and playing in the NHL, right? And every, like, so every kid when I was, was a boy, every one of their father's visions was for them to play in the NHL. And it was a cutthroat. Like it didn't matter how they did it or how you're going to get there, except the problem was the kids were 11 years old. And you're trying to tell the parents, like I remember my dad saying, like, no one's going to the NHL tomorrow, even though you get drafted just seven short years later, it happens pretty quick from 11 to 18. But that was. Every father is playing in 1970s and early 1980s in Ottawa, Canada. Everybody wanted their kid to play in the NHL. So what happened was I played with a group of kids all the way up from about 7, 8 years old till I got to about 12 or 13, 14 years old and I want to try out for the same team I did every year, the same coach that I'd had for years and years and years. And I ended up getting cut. And I'm like, wow, like, this is crazy. You know, I'd been with all these kids, I felt really awful about things. And so what they told me to do was go up and play with the team, excuse me, a year ahead. Because they weren't as good as a team at my age group. They were actually not as good, but they were the same level. So what happened? I mean, you. I'm gonna, I love telling this story because to me it was, it was everything to me in my journey in hockey and motivated, because I didn't need this motivation. But I'll tell you what, I got it and, and there's a great ending to it as well. I went to play on this, the other team that was older. My dad said, hey, you know what, I'll be an assistant coach. So he just met the other head coach. I said, I'll be good, I'll coach. My dad will be a coach. So they have tryouts for that team because everybody else, all the scattered players went and tried out for that team afterwards. I got cut from that team while my father was the assistant coach at 13 years old. 

Christie Casciano [5:29 - 5:31]: Oh my gosh, cut. 

Chris Therien [5:31 - 7:38]: I came out to the car and told him, I said, you're not going to believe this, but I just got cut. My dad was like, what? Like, I don't understand what's. What, what you're talking about. So anyway, he stayed on his coach for like a month and I realized afterwards, like I wasn't playing. I actually. So my minor hockey story to everybody is I quit hockey for a year and I skied. I did not step on the ice in the most formative year of your teens, a 14 year old to 15 year old. I did not play a sport of hockey for over a year. I didn't put skates on. But let me tell you the, the end game to this. Of all those kids, of every single one of them that tried out for the lower team, my level age team, the team ahead of them, the team ahead of that, not one other player ever went and played another as long as I did. There's a couple of guys that actually got a cup of coffee, played like 10 games, but that was it. And so I was the only one that ended up taking a year off. At 14. I cleared my head, I got the clutter out. I Found out what was really important. And if I didn't have a father that understood that I actually was a really good hockey player, and he believed in me enough to say, I'm gonna. I want to get this kid out of this city and get him to prep school in Lake Placid, where I went to Northwood, which ended up being a hockey factory. Yeah, that's where my journey. That's where my journey began, and that's where I was born. I wrote in the book. It was like a rebirth for me because I got away from all the negativity and all the politics and the crap that came with minor hockey, the insensitivity, the BS from the coaches, all the stuff that came along that made me actually resent, Have a resentment towards the minor hockey and the way it was presented to me, the only way that I could win was to have success and success through hockey. So when I left at 15 years old to go to Northwood, nobody had ever heard of me again. There was no Twitter, there was no social media, there was no Facebook. All there was with 1990 was, Chris Tarrion gets selected. Was the 47th pick in the NHL Draft. And the entire. Every kid I ever played with went, what. What happened? 

Mike Bonelli [7:38 - 7:38]: Who. 

Chris Therien [7:40 - 9:02]: Funny story. To end it, though, to cap off what I meant when I say the minor hockey. The coach that cut me, I'm sure he's. He's a nice man. He was a friend of our family over the years. He'd be about the same age as my dad now, in his early to mid-80s, ironically. In Toronto about five years ago, I was coaching a minor hockey team. I was coaching my son's minor hockey team. It was 2018, and I was coaching. We were coaching our Virtua team here. You probably know the minor hockey teams. We were Virtua, which is now, I think, Flyers elite. And we ended up playing the Ottawa 67s junior team. Well, it never really occurred to me that a lot of the parents of that team happened to be the guys that I played with when I was a kid. They're so. They're still. They're still living the dream. Well, who ended up being there that day, watching his grandson, that coach that cut me. So what did I do? I couldn't help myself. I walked up to him, I said, hey, Mr. H. Said, I. I don't. You might remember me. My name's Chris Tarrion. He goes, chris Tarrion. Oh, my God. Great to see you. Great to see you. I said, listen, I just wanted to come up here and thank you. I said, because if you didn't cut me from that team at 14 unjustly, I never would have went on to play almost 900 meaningful games in the NHL. I'd love to thank you for that, sir. Have a great day. 

Christie Casciano [9:02 - 9:06]: Very classy, though. Very classy. Seriously walked away. 

Chris Therien [9:06 - 10:42]: The look on his face was, wow, did that just happen? And his son was right next to him. And. And that. That, to me was. Was. Was a measure of retribution, but it was almost like it was the exclamation point on my career at that moment. And I never realized it till I. Till it happened, so. And I have. I have great memories, a lot of good friends from those teams, too. You know, I have no resentment. I feel, though, that there was a political aspect to it. I hated that I didn't like anything about it. And unfortunately, that message had resonated with me and stuck with me until this day at 52 years old, where I'm still thinking. I still think and have those same stories and memories of that. And I've had those same memories and stories as a coach of minor hockey as well. Thank God I'm no longer part of that. My son, we're done with the minor hockey. I'm out of the era of the youth sports because Chris is off to college next year. He's my last one. But I'll tell you what, those are things that I remembered from being a kid. And it's kind of hard sometimes when you look at every. Every adolescent wants to have a great journey and a positive journey. And that was not, for me, a positive. It was very, very difficult for me, and one that I had to adjust to and come out the other side. But it. At the same time, that was the most difficult thing that I dealt with in my teens. And I guess if that's the worst thing you have to deal with, it's hard and it's painful, but in a lot of ways, it made who I am today because of that. 

Christie Casciano [10:42 - 10:51]: Right. And Chris, what drew you back to hockey? Because you could have easily just walked away from it forever. 

Chris Therien [10:51 - 12:49]: My dad was really the reason. He said to me, I'll never forget him telling me, he goes, you know what? You got a lot of talent. And. But he needs to be able to tap that talent. And if it wasn't for him, and I. And I say this, if it was not for my dad, I would not have played hockey again. I would not have played hockey again. I used to ride that ski bus from St. Pius X High School in Ottawa every night. After school, about an hour. And then I'd have somebody pick me up at the ski Mountain around 9 o'clock. We'd ski in the lights. And, you know, it was a good way to kind of clear my head instead of dealing with all that. And, and, and, you know, there's a lot of things I tell and, you know, a lot of these experiences. It's great to be on the show because there's a lot of things I try to tell parents now. I've been through the ringer with my daughters. Like, I, I, you know, they're. I've been through the youth sport part of it with basketball, that was an absolute pleasure and a joy. Football even more so. When I told Chris in 2020, I had. Chris played hockey. My son's 6, you know, almost 6, 6, 275 now. He just turned 18 years old. He's a monster. But yeah, and he, but you know what? He was a hockey player. When kids, I saw kids getting changed in the back of pickup trucks during the pandemic, I said, you know what? I'm not doing this. I'm not. I don't think I want him to do this either. So I asked him, I said, you know, you're going to be a freshman in high school. Would you like to try football? And he went and tried it and he just absolutely fell in love with it. So I always say there's, you know, different strokes for different folks. And I always tell kids to have an open mind to play different sports too. When you're younger. You know, that's one thing for me, I did. I played baseball, I played soccer, you know, hockey. I played football in high school for a couple of years. It wasn't the same levels as you get down here, but I always encourage kids to go out and play, play lots, be around friends, get to make new friends, meet new people, learn different lessons from different coaches. And I think those are the most valuable things. Don't stick to one sport if you can, go play five of them. Go out and play five sports if you can, because you're getting. The best part about it is being around other kids that have the same. 

Lee MJ Elias [12:49 - 14:53]: Like you are talking directly to the right audience right now. I gotta tell you that you're the preaching of the choir. And just for those of you listening for reference, Chris was a 6 foot 5 defenseman who played with the likes of Lindros and Desjardins and all the names you remember, Legion of Doom. Chris, I want to dive into this too, because what you're tapping into is something that we like to talk about on this show all the time. There is no path. There is no correct path in any sport, right. To pro or college or whatever you think the end goal is. The path is actually right now, in the moment, in the lessons that you're learning. What I love about the story that you just told, and I know as coaches, Mike and I get this all the time. Christy, I know you've had these conversations with parents is the adversity you face is really what ends up shaping you into the person you're going to be. And so many parents and coaches and people today try and shield their kids from that adversity. Right. I didn't make the NHL. The teams that I got cut from shaped me into being more resilient and eventually pushed me to where I was able to get to. You have to allow your kids to go through that process, because if you get through any youth sport and you get to college and they have not faced adversity, we collectively, coaches, parents, and everybody have failed them dramatically. The whole value and the ROI of youth and minor sports is the life lessons you get to endure no matter what you do professionally. Those are the life lessons. And I love the way you told that story because a, you said, look, you clearly needed a mental break. You said that I had to clear my head. I was doing other things. You played other sports. You found yourself. You had great mentorship from your family to ease you back. And obviously, you're a tremendous athlete. We know that you had a very long career, you know, but can you comment on what I'm saying? Because I think that's the message that the parents need to hear, is those adversities, the getting cut is an opportunity. It's always. It's all an opportunity, depending on how you look at it. 

Chris Therien [14:54 - 15:42]: Well, it's. It's no different. Like, and I'm not. I don't want to. I'm going to breathe light into the only time I'll ever use Michael Jordan's name in the same sentence with Chris Tarrion. But he got cut from his high school, his high school basketball team. You know, I know what that felt like, you know, to be cut from that hockey team with all your friends that you grew up with, the embarrassment of going through that. So what did he do? I mean, he only went on to become the greatest player that ever lived. And you could tell those stories fueled him, you know, like, when, like, why do we know the story of him getting cut by his basketball team? Because that's what pushed him to go further and deeper. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe, you know, I look at some of my life and I sometimes wonder back, like, did I play angry? Did I play with a. Like, I want to get you guys for what you did to me. I don't know if you can do that. All you can do is have success. Right? 

Lee MJ Elias [15:42 - 15:43]: Right. 

Chris Therien [15:43 - 16:30]: My success was making it, you know, and getting there and people saying, oh, my God, like, wow, of all the guys that made it, it was Chris Tarrian. Who would have thought, you know, and that's pretty. That's pretty cool. The one thing I tell. The one thing I tell parents all the time. And, and, and I say this. I say this humbly and with. Completely gracious for what I've been, what I've accomplished with my kids. But my kids have all been on Division 1 scholarships. Chris is the last one. He's going to Villanova. And I get Parents cup sometimes. Like, how did you do that? And I'm like, I didn't do anything. I said, the kids were put in the right place. They were in the. In the right sport for them, and they thrived and they flourished at it. You know, I. When I. I talk about my oldest, Isabella, who gets married next summer, which makes me feel even a lot older. 

Lee MJ Elias [16:30 - 16:31]: Congratulations. Yeah. 

Chris Therien [16:31 - 16:32]: Yeah. 

Christie Casciano [16:32 - 16:33]: That's fantastic. 

Chris Therien [16:33 - 19:41]: Yeah. And. And she. And her boyfriend is as a alignment for the Indianapolis Colts. Another football. Yeah. So he's been hurt. He broke his leg, but. Yeah, but he'll. He'll be back and healthy again. But, you know, she was one of these kids where she wanted to play basketball, and we just brought her out to a court on a Friday night when she was about 11 years old, and it was just magic. Like, you couldn't. I don't know, it was. It was like she knew everything to do with the ball. And she went on to become one of the best players in the entire state of New Jersey. She was first team all state when she played here. They did a lot of winning and she was very much just a tremendous player. But I tell people and parents, you have to be honest about what you're looking for. First of all, why is your kid playing? That's the first question. Are you playing? The first reason that they should be playing is because it's fun. That's number one. Right. Number two is they should be playing because there is. You could learn life lessons. So along with the fun, couple that with competitiveness and grinding it out. Right. Like, life is sometimes hard, sometimes you hit some roadblocks and stuff. And you have to be able and adept to be able to deal with that. That's the second thing which is good for. And the third thing is camaraderie and hanging around your friends, right? To be around different kids. I always think it's better life lessons for kids to be around other athletes. There's less things happening on the outside when you stick around a good group of kids. But I tell parents, if now there's a. There's a reason why the kids are in it and there's a reason why the parents are in it. And that usually is. Are two completely different things. Completely different things. And I think it's maybe a little bit different sometimes with boys, especially playing those competitive sports where there's a sometimes $100 million waiting at the end of a college career. But that's not a lot that happens to one in few thousand kids, right, that gets that big NFL contract or major League baseball contract, NBA. But I tell parents, what is your goal for you guys? What is, what is the expectation for the parent? Because if the kid's playing for you and you're the one being satisfied by it, that's the wrong reason. The other thing I always tell parents too, when I look at my kids and look at any kid is to be completely honest about their child's abilities. If you're saying to yourself, my kid's on a certain team and they're going to be in a situation where they can get recruited by colleges, how realistic is it that at what level is your kid able to play? That has to be another part of it. Because you can tell some kids, like, you know what? I think your kid could have a really great career. They can go to Swarthmore College or one of these great schools to play at whatever sport they want, right, with an excellent education. But maybe they're not Division 1 players. That's the hardest part, telling a parent and for them to understand to themselves saying, well, why aren't they? You have to have a really good understanding of what you have in your own kids and how much they love playing the sport, not you. It's not how much you love watching the sports, how much your kid loves playing the sport, right? 

Lee MJ Elias [19:41 - 20:15]: Chris, I'll say this too. We say it on the show a lot. You can't create the love. You can cultivate it, but you can't create it. And you got to make sure you're not living through your kids in that way. You know, I'll tell you this common story, Mike. I'm sure you, you deal with this one all the time. I think the hardest part of coaching youth sports, I mean, there's a lot of things, there's a lot of good things, a lot of bad things, but for me, there's nothing more heartbreaking on a bench. When a kid makes a mistake, comes back to the bench, is emotional, and will turn to me and say, like, my dad's going to be so mad at me for that. 

Chris Therien [20:15 - 20:15]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [20:15 - 21:08]: And I, and I hear that every season at least once, sometimes multiple times. And it's like, you know, I'm not even sure what to say all the time. Sometimes we'll say, well, you listen, we're here together as a team right now. Let's focus on us. But, you know, the kids getting these messages after the guy, like, what's the car ride home for that kid? Got to be like, yeah, he's focused on his kid. And we always say, you know, again, it's all perspective. But if you're doing it well, if you're doing it right, your kid will. Well, first off, might not look at you at all during the game. Right. That's not where their focus should be. But if they're looking for you, it's for, it's for, hey, we're sharing this great moment together or we did something cool together. It breaks my heart when, oh, my dad's going to kill me for that. Like, right, that. Chris, to your point, who. What are you in the sport for? Because I don't want any of my players only playing to appease their parents. Right. That can't be the why. 

Mike Bonelli [21:09 - 21:09]: Right? 

Chris Therien [21:09 - 21:39]: You know? You know, guys, I, I don't know, but I have this sense, I guess I'll just say it. I really feel like hockey and I've been around three sports. I haven't been around baseball. I heard that's a little bit of a beauty, too. But I've been around basketball and football, and I'm going to just be straight up and honest with you. I've never seen the kind of parenting and the, the parenting and what comes with it with hockey, that it doesn't exist with the other sports. 

Christie Casciano [21:39 - 21:40]: Right. 

Chris Therien [21:40 - 21:48]: Football. I mean, I've never, when I, when I coached hockey, could believe the amount of parents that would knock down another kid. 

Lee MJ Elias [21:48 - 21:49]: Yeah. 

Chris Therien [21:49 - 21:58]: Talking about making sure you got three lines that you're sitting out the last line and a half of kids because you need to win the game. 

Lee MJ Elias [21:58 - 21:59]: Yeah. 

Chris Therien [22:01 - 24:40]: Just absolutely unbelievable stuff to me. Never seen it in football. I've never seen anything in football like that. I See parents cheering for other each other's kids. And basketball, it was girls basketball. I didn't see the boys side of it, so I don't want to get into that part, but I saw nothing but a lot of support for every single kid playing on those teams. Hockey, I found, to be honest to God, and I know we were talking about this a little before Lee, a very, very difficult and, and trying sport to coach and to be around. And it's because of the parents. The parents. So I have a theory and I. And someone asked me, why do hockey parents behave the way they behave? So whether you're the, the superstar of the team that's paying $7,500 or you're the last player on the team that's the least skilled player, you're paying $7,500 too. Right. And I really feel like when some parents sees little Johnny getting most of the ice time and their kids not, I feel like they feel like they have an entitlement to the ice as much as that little Johnny superstar because they paid the same amount of money. And I really do feel that that is absolutely 100% a part of it. But when you got kids, and I'm talking now, listen, I know when kids get to 17 and 18 years old, it gets a little bit different. You know, you're trying to win a game, you have more depth and you want to shorten your bench a little bit in a tight game at the end, those things, those things can happen. But I think for the most part, I think it's, I think at a lower level where the kids are 12, 13, 14, I'm all about playing everybody. I'm not so much result oriented as I am about the kids making sure the kids having fun. Yeah, we'd love to win the game. We want to give you a game plan that'll give you the best chance to win that game. But at the same time, I'm not going to have some kid leaving the game at 12, 13 years old because he didn't play in that hockey game, that's not right. And I think a lot of that is my leanings back on myself of how I felt. You know, when you look at a kid on the ice and you see how happy they are just playing sometimes, maybe that kid's not there for the reasons that he wants to be there. Maybe he's there for the reasons because his mom or dad want him to there. And so I have to remember those things. Hockey is a very, very complicated sport when it comes down to the youth hockey level. And like I said, my dad, I told my dad when I was coaching Chris in, in hockey, he said to me, you know, only about a 10 years ago he said, I'll tell you what son, you're going to meet some people in minor hockey and you're going to be coaching in situations that you're going to, you're going to be stunned to see what, what it's like. And, and, and I'm glad to see in 50 years none of that has changed. 

Christie Casciano [24:40 - 24:43]: Apparently none of it has changed. 

Mike Bonelli [24:45 - 26:58]: Yeah, I think, I think it's more, I think it's really is more. I mean it could be about the money, but I think we're also jaded here on the east coast that, that it's really more about the fact that hockey has become less and less about community as it is about a business. And like when you go to football, basketball, every, when you're. But right now in my town, every single one of my kids friends plays basketball. They're not even good at basketball. I don't even want a game in basketball. But it's the community, right? So you're afraid to not be a part of that community because you got to see that person a stop and shop probably right after the game and actually have a conversation with them. In hockey, because of the way we've developed the program, you may never ever see a teammate of yours outside the rink. You just may never, you'll never run into them. You're never going to be in a, in a, in a movie theater. You're never going to be in an after school activity. You're never going to be in a, out at Applebee's and run into them because they're probably from three, four towns away from you. So I think with the way hockey now again, this isn't, you know, in Minnesota, you know, communities like that, there's a reason why they have, what they have is in these small little towns in Ontario. And like there's a reason why they have what they have because community is more important for sport than the business. And what we've done is create a business around the kids. And what that does to your point Chris though is now it becomes monetary, it becomes an investment. It becomes like I just traveled an hour and 45 minutes. Like, but you didn't have to. I mean I, I joke around in my town and I'm at the point right now where I don't really give a crap of what people think anymore about like what I think. And I think if you took all the kids that live in my town that are playing in other towns. This. You, you probably have a top 20 team in the country playing in this town. It's so three kids go here to your point, like, well, I think I'm just as good as that kid. Why they leave? Well, I'm gonna leave now and go to this team. I'm better than that kid now. I'm gonna leave. If all those kids just came back and played together because they were part of a community that they would have. They would have a very, very, very good team. And I think it's so funny how people look like, well, I'm only doing this for me. And it really does because I coach lacrosse as well. Yeah, I don't see it in lacrosse. 

Chris Therien [26:58 - 26:58]: No. 

Mike Bonelli [26:59 - 27:14]: But it's starting to. It's starting to. It's starting to creep in. The more and more we start doing early specialization and early programming for kids exclusively for that sport. It really does start to, you know. 

Christie Casciano [27:14 - 27:28]: I have seen in lacrosse. But isn't it sad, guys, how hockey has become youth hockey anyway? More about investment than development and Chris. 

Mike Bonelli [27:28 - 27:28]: Development, Chrissy. 

Chris Therien [27:29 - 27:29]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [27:29 - 27:41]: Just fun. Like it's supposed to be about. You're supposed to wake up on a Saturday morning, go to a game, everybody go to a pancake breakfast, hang out with your friends and then go home. Right. And then, and then, yes, you win. 

Christie Casciano [27:41 - 27:43]: You want your skills. Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [27:43 - 29:08]: And then on Monday morning, you, you go to your, your classmates, like, I really got you that game, didn't I? Well, I beat you up on that game. Oh, we won that game. And then, and because what happens is in a community is you'll see the best players will lift the other players up because they're friends with them. They haven't. They have an invested reason to be connected to them. When you just cut. When you just willy nilly put kids together and say, hey, next weekend in Philly, I want all you kids to show up and play a game. We're going to win because we have the best 18 kids. But none of these kids even know each other at all. They're just really good, which is great. But that's not a community. That's just a mercenary team of players playing. And I think we're seeing that. And soccer is getting that way right now too in America because you're starting to see more of these academy soccer programs where kids are not even playing high school soccer anymore. They're playing, you know, academy soccer or travel soccer. And it's, it just rips apart what sport in my opinion, is about. And that's about a community of people working together, creating all these life lessons, creating opportunities so your kids not hanging out in the corner at 7:11 when they're 16 years old, you know, and, you know, jonesing for a cigar or something. And then you're just. And then. And then, you know, being in a place where they could have good, healthy fun. And we as parents can feel comfortable that our kids are with other really good kids. 

Christie Casciano [29:08 - 29:28]: Right. So it's tough to put the genie back in the bottle now, but maybe we can. Maybe we can guide parents, you know, maybe some red flags, Chris. Maybe, you know, if you hold up a mirror, what am I doing wrong? You know, check. Here's a. Here's a checklist. Maybe we can come up with something for parents. 

Chris Therien [29:28 - 29:38]: I'd love to put. Give parents a checklist. I mean, if you. That's what you're saying, because I don't think that would work either, Christie. I'm not sure. I think they'd still push back on that. 

Christie Casciano [29:38 - 29:41]: They'll do it. Maybe somebody out there is listening. 

Lee MJ Elias [29:41 - 29:42]: Well, you know, I'll say no, but. 

Mike Bonelli [29:42 - 29:49]: There are checklists, right? There are opportunities to have checklists and think about what you want to do in your head. But to Chris's point, I got to. 

Lee MJ Elias [29:49 - 30:29]: Tell you, Mike, to your point. All right, And Chris, you know, so we do team building within our organization. And one of the things that I said is that I need different teams to work together in our team building. It cannot just be one team. And now that we're five, six years in, which is basically the 12 you down age groups, all of the kids in my organization, to your point, my community, they all know each other. While there's always a little disappointment when you don't make the team you want to make, they all know each other, right. Even though they're from other teams. And the coaches are coming to me now and saying, well, it's so much easier to get cohesion and get them working together. Yeah. Because they know each other. There's community there. 

Mike Bonelli [30:29 - 30:29]: Now. 

Lee MJ Elias [30:29 - 30:39]: When you look at the 14 you up who are kids I have not had, worked with as much, you don't see that right now. I'm not saying I found a solution here, but, Mike, I'm just trying to enforce what you. 

Mike Bonelli [30:39 - 31:18]: Well, there is a solution, though, Lee, because that is the solution. Like, so I used to have these fights all the time. You know, a really big organization in Philly or Connecticut or. Or wherever, Massachusetts. They have like, say. Say they have four teams of 2013 year birth kids. And it's unbelievable to me. Like, it just doesn't even. I can't comprehend it when I walk into a rink that you would think that a 2013 AAA Elite select player is a better person than a 2013 Wreck Kid. Like, right? So why are we all work. Like, why isn't all 60 kids working together? 

Lee MJ Elias [31:19 - 31:19]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [31:19 - 31:31]: Because guess what? When they're, when they're. And Chris, you've probably seen this, right? All of a sudden, when they're 16, 17, 18 years old, that kid was the little superstar back when they were seven. He's not even playing a sport anymore. 

Chris Therien [31:31 - 32:35]: That's. That's the part. And that's why I tried when I coached. Okay. My coaching experience in hockey was just okay. I was the assistant coach for four or five years for the Virtua team, the Triple A team. Chris played. He's a good player. Not the best, but I wanted the kids to learn how I learned. And the first year we had, we had. I mean, I had. Chris had his cousin on the team. His cousin lives South Jersey. I was coaching. I played in the NHL for forever, right? Like, had enough experience, have my kids play. He left to go play for the Avalanche while I was still coaching the next year with the whole group of people. And I'm like, what? Like, I, I. All I said was, I remember Bob Clark. I mean, it doesn't get any, like, more straight to the point than Bob Clark. And someone said, what do our kids need, like, you know, to make them, you know, really good players? And Bob Clark goes. The closest hockey rink you can find. 

Mike Bonelli [32:36 - 32:36]: Simple. 

Chris Therien [32:37 - 32:46]: That's it. Just drop them off at the rink. Let him skate. But when I, When I saw these tryouts, I was like, are these people out of their minds? 

Lee MJ Elias [32:46 - 32:46]: Yes. 

Chris Therien [32:46 - 33:00]: Like, you're gonna drive two hours to go up to the Ice House and Hackensack as your new home base when we're right here, you have a coach that played in the NHL. I know what I'm talking about. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:00 - 33:01]: Right? 

Chris Therien [33:01 - 33:14]: But because they thought that they wouldn't be as good as the other teams in the league, they've deemed it would be a better decision to go play with the best talent so that you'd be staying up at the top with the top talent. 

Mike Bonelli [33:16 - 34:33]: What I like the most now is seeing the kids as teenagers, and if you extract them from the top talent and you put them on a team that doesn't have top talent, they are no longer top talent. Like, it's like, like, you know, you're Good when you can. When you could take a kid and that. That on the worst team, put them on there, and all of a sudden that team is a lot better. Like, within two goals of another team, better. That's a talent, A. A kid that can skate with a bunch of other talented kids. And you're not really coaching them at that point, Chris. Right. You're just managing a bunch of good kids. Like, I'm just managing a bunch of good kids. But I want to coach. Like, if you really want to coach and you want to be in a community as a coach, then you're going to find a way. And, like, even when I was a high school, even as a college coach, I could never. It was hard for me to justify a kid that shows up for three hours every day, works his ass off, does the stuff he needs to do in school, stays out of trouble. It was so hard for me not to give that kid an opportunity to play, even at the times in games where it could affect us in a negative way. I'm like, well, why would they show up? Like, why would you come to practice every day if you know you're never going to get a chance to play? Now, do you need to. Do you need to manage that piece? Yeah, you don't want to put a kid in a place where now, like, the whole school's on his back. 

Chris Therien [34:33 - 34:34]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [34:34 - 35:38]: Because you lost the game because of a. You know, but you know, your kid and you know how to, you know, if you're. You're coaching at any level and you can't put your weakest link out there with a bunch of kids surrounding him or her to make them successful, then you're really not coaching. So I think this is where, you know, we need to all do a better job of understanding that our job is to, you know, we say it all the time in this show. It's like, number one is the kids got to come back the next year. Okay, I've done a good job. They come back, they love. They love hockey. Number two is, how do I get a kid inspired to want to come and compete? And I used to tell my best players, if you want to be a better player, you better hope that all the shitty kids that are on this team keep showing up for practice. Like, you better hope that they want to compete against you. You better hope that they want to, you know, knock you. Knock you around in the corner. Because if they can't even do it, what are we doing here? Like, I think it's like, you know, so if you Know, if everybody wants six kids on a team, then yes. Don't ever, ever play the second and third line in the third period of a game. And then you'll find out in two years you won't have any kids left. 

Chris Therien [35:39 - 35:41]: Yeah, it's very tricky. 

Mike Bonelli [35:42 - 35:57]: But the travel piece, it's a very, you know, we, we had a, for a long time we had a rule. No tunnels. No tunnels, no tolls. And it was like, you know, and no bridges. No bridges, no tunnels, no tolls. If you could do that as a hockey player. Now it's hard to do that in Jersey. 

Lee MJ Elias [35:58 - 35:59]: It's very hard where you're at, Mike. 

Mike Bonelli [35:59 - 36:13]: But everywhere, everywhere you go, there's a bridge. But if you, but if you could use that philosophy that if I can avoid spending, you know, 2750 in tolls to go to practice every night, I'm in good shape, I'm in better shape. 

Lee MJ Elias [36:13 - 37:28]: And Mike, you, you have said this previous too, and Chris, this speaks directly to something you said before. And I'll preempt this, I'll say this ahead of it is that when you get to the 17, 18 year olds where roles are present and you understand what being on a third or fourth line is, you know, I'm not talking about that right now, but I am Talking about that 12 year old age you talked about. Mike says this all the time and I love it. He goes, I didn't pick you for the team, not to play you. If I selected you, you're going to play, you're going to learn, you're going to develop. And what I have found in my youth journey, looking back, the best coaches and probably the best development I ever had from those coaches came from the coaches with maybe the smallest egos in the game, right? They weren't there to tell me how great they were at coaching and how much they knew. Chris, I'm sure you were the same way. You didn't have to do it, right? I learned from them because they had the experience and they wanted to teach me and I wanted to learn. And I think what's changing now is we're losing sight of that. If you have a guy that played in the NHL and he can speak to your kid and your kid's learning, why you would remove them from that environment is beyond me. And I don't care what your record is, I don't care about any of that. Right? 

Chris Therien [37:28 - 37:29]: It's. 

Lee MJ Elias [37:29 - 37:36]: If you can learn and your kid loves to learn, that's the other side of it, right? Like, you know, and there's Nothing wrong with the kid. Who doesn't want to do that, by the way. 

Chris Therien [37:36 - 37:36]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [37:36 - 38:15]: If your kid is not enthralled with hockey and wants to learn every. Every second of the day, there's nothing wrong with that. He's a kid. But if he or she does love that and you've got a coach that's willing to do that, why would you leave? Quick story. I have a kid who switched organizations last year. The reason being that the rink he was going to was much closer to his home. Right. And the parents came to me and I said, I think that that makes a lot of sense. I love this kid. This kid loves the teammates. Right. That was the hardest part of leaving, was leaving his friends. But it just logistically made so much more sense for this kid to leave. It was hard. He did it. The kid's thriving now, right? Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [38:15 - 38:17]: Well, he's probably sleeping. He's probably getting sleep now. 

Lee MJ Elias [38:17 - 38:54]: He's getting sleep. It's a closer rink. I can tell you right now that the organization's kind of on par. Right. Maybe not as grandiose as the one that I'm with, but he's doing better. And it just shows you that it's not about, well, this. AAA been ranked. And, you know, they do this and they have. You got to think about these things, you know, logistically, wholesomely. You, you know, again, we talked about hockey being a business. We're using words like roi, right? What's the return on investment in hockey? I don't know if they do that in basketball or football, Chris. I doubt it. You know, it's just about having fun in the community piece. 

Mike Bonelli [38:55 - 39:01]: But, Chris, did you find your anxiety level as a. As a alternate. I'll call it an alternate sport parent. Because we're really a hockey show. 

Lee MJ Elias [39:02 - 39:05]: But you're like, you're an alternate sports parent. 

Mike Bonelli [39:06 - 40:04]: But if you're, if you're just like, if you're, if you're. If you're. As a parent of a kid that's playing basketball or football sport, maybe you didn't really, you know, you didn't play professionally in. Was it. Is it a different. Like what. I mean, and I know you talked about it a little bit, but just like that, the ability as a coach now, like, you're on the. You're on the ice most. Like I've heard so many NH X NHL players that are coaching, and I hear the parents like, oh, we get to play for this guy. Oh, this is a home run. Like, we're in the NHL. Like, we're going to go. We're. This kid. This is my ticket to go play pro. I'm like, well, you're not. I mean, unless something happened, you're not part of that person's lineage like that. There's nothing. You're not. You're not. They're not helping you. Like, so I think just. But to Lee's point, having, like, if I'm able to sit next to a golf pro every day and just pick his brain all the time, I'm probably going to be a better golfer. Like, hey, what do you think about this? What kind of grip should you use here? You know, what would you do here? Hey, I played this course. Like, you're just going to get little bits of nugget. You're going to say, well, hey, I'm going golfing next week. Hey, I got it. I got an idea. I can help you out there. No, I don't. I don't really care what you. 

Lee MJ Elias [40:04 - 40:10]: I would have given anything for that growing up. I didn't care about it. I would have given anything for that knowledge. I was yearning for the knowledge. 

Mike Bonelli [40:10 - 40:29]: Well, just having that conversation. So I think, Chris, look, what was the, like. What was, like. So you know, where. What is that line, then? Okay, I'm. I think I can give you the. What did you find yourself? It wasn't. It had to be frustrating that you're actually trying to sell yourself as a coach for no reason at all, to be like, well, why don't you just stay here? Why would you go to another program? 

Chris Therien [40:29 - 41:03]: It was. It was the most bizarre thing I think I've ever seen. Like, I. And I just couldn't believe the amount of travel that was going on, that they were. I'm like, you know, and I. Honest to God, you know, it's funny. I really think that a lot of the parents left because they didn't, like, some of the other kids on the team. They didn't think that they were kids, that their own kids were at the same level as those other kids. So they went chasing the program, chasing better players, right? And, and. And you know what? You know, we played that team. We played that team. All the kids had left. We played them the next year. We tied them like, one. One. 

Lee MJ Elias [41:03 - 41:04]: Yeah. 

Chris Therien [41:04 - 41:21]: I mean, what an embarrass. Even Chris, like, kid got in the car and he, like, my son, who's like maybe 6, 14, he goes, well, I must have been real embarrassing for them. Hey, Dad. I go, yeah, yeah, it is. It's really embarrassing. They took all the best players and Thought they were going to go to a better team, but they just, they got a tie team. They diluted it. 

Christie Casciano [41:21 - 41:22]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [41:22 - 41:27]: Well, that's every, that's every, that's every hockey season now, right? This, I mean, it's always like, I gotta leave. 

Chris Therien [41:27 - 41:27]: Why? 

Mike Bonelli [41:27 - 42:29]: Oh, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a mess. It's blowing up. It's a. Then you play the team and I'm like, we just tied you two, two. Like, because really, at some point, in some point, they're all the same teams except for a good goalie and one, you know, offensive defenseman. I mean they're all basically this, you could take any of these kids and interchange them back and forth. So I think going back to, you know, Bobby Clark's philosophy is like, well then find the rake that's closest to you then. You know, if all that said, like, I laugh at 8 year olds, like, it is so to me to go travel an hour and a half to play another group of crappy 8 year olds makes no sense to me. When like I had, I had four brothers. If you played, if we played each other only, yeah, we would kill each other. Like there was nobody I hated more than my brothers. In, in playing like it was, there was no, like I felt bad. I'm like, oh, listen, you're gonna get, you're gonna get the crap beat out of you right now. Because I'm not. Because I'm not. I don't hate the kid that lives in Jersey. I'm just playing them, right. And when you're playing, you're competing. Like to me, that's the key is like, that's another, you make that competition. 

Chris Therien [42:29 - 43:11]: The other, the other thing too. I, the other thing I tell parents too. And this is every sport, know what you have physically as, as you're set. Because a kid at 13 years old is going to be completely different at 18 years old. Yeah. When you're actually going to go away and play your Division 1 sport, or Division 2, whatever sport you're playing or want to go to college, there might be a kid who's five foot two when he's 12. Next thing you know, he's six foot five when he's 18 years old, right. And he's bigger, faster, better, stronger than he was. So that's another thing, you know, you can never, whatever you have at 12, 13 is going to be significantly different four years later. And you as a parent have to understand that. 

Lee MJ Elias [43:11 - 45:37]: Well, it's also so important that you focus on the Moment and not the future. And that's where I think a lot of parents get lost too, is like, well, next year we're doing this. You're five years, three years ago, guys, right now, right now. Where's your kid at right now? Have you even touched base with your kid of mentally where they're at right now, aside from planning their future in five years? Like, we definitely don't do that or not enough of just sitting down, having a conversation with a kid, meeting them where they're at, you know? Do you love playing hockey? Give me an honest answer, right? You got to do these mental check ins because like you said, Chris, not. Not just the genetics of your body changing life happens when your kid's 15, boy or girl, they're facing a lot of other decisions that have nothing to do with sports. Right? And those play into it as well, right? And again, there's no path, there's no correct way to get anywhere. Our guest didn't play hockey for a year during the most, potentially most important year of youth hockey. Right? It comes down to the life experience and the road that you're managing in front of you. You don't want to plan too far ahead. Also, I'll never understand, I say this to Mike all the time and Christie, you too. I will never understand a lateral jump in youth hockey to go to a different place at the same level. Right? I mean, look, there are very few, very few exceptions to that rule for me. Right. There are a few scenarios where maybe that makes sense if there's extreme bullying involved or if it's just a really horrendous environment. Like, I do understand that. But in my opinion, it's very rare and it's very rare that the other side's going to be that much better. So that blows my mind, Chris. I do, I do. I'll be remiss if I don't talk about your NHL experience at all. And I do want to ask a question about that. Your answers on the youth hockey side have been fantastic. But, you know, look, man, you. You were a warrior out there your whole career. My question for you is this. As someone who watched you, you played on some pretty incredible Flyers teams with some pretty high profile talent hall of Famers. I want to know if you can dive into the separators that make great players and great teams great, right? The Flyers teams that you played on that were finding a lot of success. What was the, what was in the soup? What was in the water that really pushed those teams forward? Can you dive into that can you tell us about that? 

Chris Therien [45:37 - 45:57]: Yeah, I think. I think the biggest I've had a couple teams in 97 team. We went to the finals and lost. It was a terrible ending to a nice playoff run. But we. Detroit was just a better team. The year 2000 was the closest team I was ever a part of. We lost to the Devils. We had a 31 lead going into the we. I really believe we would have won the cup that year like they did. 

Lee MJ Elias [45:57 - 45:58]: I do, too. 

Chris Therien [45:58 - 47:05]: And there was a lot of extraneous circumstances that we had to deal with at the time. But the best teams that I've always had, the teams that do the best, are the ones where you have a lot of love amongst your players. You know, that where every. Every guy feels like your best team, your best friend, you know, your best mate out there. So, you know, had nothing, not. Not so much to do with the actual skill. I mean, obviously when you get on the ice, it comes down to making plays and, and defending and scoring goals and doing all those little things. But the teams that I had the best runs with or the best times with were the ones where I loved my teammates the most. It was just that. It was just that simple. It was nothing more. There was nothing baked into anything else. It was just a matter of having a great group of guys that wanted to play hard for each other. And you can do some special things. Hockey is such a great sport because, you know, you can. You can do a hard thing and bring everybody together. You know, that's what's such a great bonding and. And unifying sport is hockey. So. But those are always the teams when some. When every guy would sacrifice more of himself for the rest of the team than he would for himself. 

Lee MJ Elias [47:06 - 47:09]: And was there ways that that was cultivated or did it right? 

Christie Casciano [47:09 - 47:21]: I was just going to ask because it's. Sometimes it can be organic, but sometimes a lot is put into making that happen. So it's not just magically happening. 

Chris Therien [47:22 - 47:52]: Yeah, I mean, yeah, you know, in an older time, I mean, you guys will know this, but I mean, you know, like, that maybe may have been like a fight or a line brawl. Right. You know, like, I remember against Pittsburgh, we were down two nothing in that series that year. And I remember someone on the bench said, you know what, boys? It's time for a rodeo. And a rodeo meant like, we're gonna go out there and we're just gonna go start chucking them and start, you know, stir something up. We ended up winning the series four, too. So, I mean, do I think that that had something to do with it. Maybe not, but do. I think it had a little bit to do with it. 

Lee MJ Elias [47:53 - 47:56]: I think you did it together. Yeah, you did it together. 

Chris Therien [47:56 - 48:21]: Everything. It had everything to do with it. So, you know, there's little. Hockey has those little innuendos and those little things that can bring a team together, blocking a shot, right? Like when you're laying down in front of a person, a big shot, and you. You sacrifice your body. Anytime you sacrifice your body for another, for your team in hockey, that's. That's how you unify. And you can manufacture that, a lot of that love through making plays like that. 

Lee MJ Elias [48:21 - 48:23]: I love that, Chris. You know, my. 

Mike Bonelli [48:23 - 48:23]: My. 

Lee MJ Elias [48:23 - 48:53]: My final question to you, buddy, is, you know, you talk about mental fitness, meth a lot, particularly gratitude, which are things you look to champion every day. You really dive into your journey in your book Road to Redemption. I recommend it to everybody who's listening to this podcast, and you really provide a 360 perspective of life in hockey, kind of like you did on the show today. But I wanted to end with this. How important is gratitude and maybe some of those other lessons from the mental side that you learned along the way? Because you really do champion that today. 

Chris Therien [48:53 - 49:59]: I do. You know, I have a great story of addiction. I was an alcohol user, and I haven't drank now almost 14 years. And, you know, that may have. That meant everything to me, you know, again, did I put myself in front of that path? It's not what I asked for, but it's how you respond to it and turn your life around. And, you know, that's. My primary job now is I have. I'm an owner and a proprietor at Pennsylvania Recovery Center. We deal with people struggling with alcohol, drug addiction, mental health issues. We have multiple centers around the city. And. And that's what I love doing, that I want people to know. Like, you know, if you have a bump in life, just. Just make it a bump. It only has to be a bump. It doesn't have to be a giant mountain. And so I want people to realize that, like, there's hope out there. I struggled. I openly share my story in my book, but I'm doing great now, and. And the best thing I get to do in my life right now is give back to other people and by. By helping them and let my stories of my own journey that it's okay, you know, you can have a bump in life, but it's how you get back up and start riding that horse again that. That really and ultimately will define who you are. 

Lee MJ Elias [49:59 - 50:32]: Yeah. Well, Chris, I'll end on this, man. You were a hero to me growing up on the ice, but you're a hero off the ice as well. And your vulnerability to your story and sharing it is something that I think speaks volumes. And as much as we want a Stanley cup in Philadelphia, that's the real championship, what you're sharing that story. And again, I'm going to tell everybody listening, behoove yourself to go get his book, the Road to Redemption. Look him up. Chris Terry. And again, we know you well here, but around the country we want to make that name known as well. But, Chris, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. It was great to have you guys. 

Chris Therien [50:32 - 50:49]: It was my absolute pleasure. Thanks. You had a great show and I think it's an a lot of important lessons and a lot of important language. People need to hear this stuff and talk about it. Just be totally honest. That's what I tell people. Be honest about who you are as a parent and make sure your kid's having fun. That's ultimately the most important thing. 

Lee MJ Elias [50:50 - 51:34]: Agreed, my friend. All right, that's going to do it, my friends, for this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Remember, you can send us a question, a comment, anything. Look in the show notes. There's a link. Hit it. You text it right to us or old school. Email teamarkidsplayhockey.com thanks so much for listening. We'll see you on the next episode. Have a great week, everybody. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, Our Kids Play hockey dot com. Also make sure to check out our children's book, when hockey stops@whenhockeystops.com it's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey and we'll see you on the next episode.