Building Hockey Factories With Matt Dumouchelle

In this episode of Our Kids Play Hockey, Lee, Christie, and Mike sit down with Matt Dumouchelle, the creator of the Hockey Factories series and podcast via The Coaches Site. Matt’s in-depth exploration into elite hockey development programs worldwide has uncovered the secret ingredients behind their success—not just in creating great players, but in cultivating outstanding people.

Matt shares insights from his research, including the importance of community among coaches, redefining success in youth hockey, and how the world’s top hockey programs prioritize development over immediate results. Whether you’re a parent, coach, or hockey enthusiast, this episode is packed with actionable advice and thought-provoking perspectives.

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Key Takeaways:

1. Coaching Community: Top programs succeed through constant coach collaboration across age groups.

2. Redefining Success: Success is more than wins—it’s about character, skills, and a love for hockey.

3. Culture Matters: Programs like Frolunda focus on pride and long-term development over short-term results.

4. Patience Wins: Gradual, long-term growth is more effective than instant success.

5. Free Improvements: Positive culture and coach collaboration are impactful and cost nothing.

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Practical Tips for Coaches and Organizations:

• Build Coaching Unity: Regular meetings ensure aligned goals and best practices.

• Broaden Winning: Measure success through growth, engagement, and teamwork.

• Highlight Off-Ice Success: Celebrate players’ academic and personal achievements.

• Promote Position Versatility: Let kids try multiple roles for well-rounded development.

• Supportive Parents: Guide parents to prioritize long-term growth over immediate results.

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#HockeyDevelopment #OurKidsPlayHockey #HockeyFactories #YouthHockey

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Chapters

• 6:00 Origin of Hockey Factories project
• 8:00 Hockey development strategies and best practices
• 11:00 Commonalities in successful hockey programs
• 16:00 European vs North American development models
• 21:00 Redefining winning in youth hockey
• 26:00 Importance of cultivating love for the game
• 31:00 Parent education and involvement in development
• 36:00 Dallas Stars youth program success story
• 41:00 Key takeaways from Hockey Factories research
• 46:00 Closing thoughts and additional resources

Transcript

Lee MJ Elias [0:07 - 0:59]: Hello hockey friends and families around the world and welcome to another episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Lee Elias and I'm joined by Christie Casciano Burns and Mike Bonelli. You know, our show often discusses strategies and best practices for youth hockey development. And our guest today may be the top investigator of that topic in the world. Matt Dumichel is the author of the Hockey Factory series and podcast via the coaches site. His ex exploration into hockey programs has taken him on a quest worldwide to dive deep into how hockey's top development programs train and develop elite talents, also creating world class people. It should not go unsaid that Matt is also heavily involved in the game as an assistant GM for the Leamington Flyers of the Greater Ontario Junior Hockey League. And as we love to say on this show, Matt is the proud father of two children, Evelyn and Crosley. We are very excited to pull the thread on this one. Matt, welcome to Our Kids Play Hockey. 

Matt Dumouchelle [0:59 - 1:05]: Thanks so much for having me, guys. Investigator is is a new one. I like that. I feel like I need to make a badge or something. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:06 - 1:20]: We try and impress people in our opens. I'm glad that we did that here today. But look, you know, it's really, it's really hard to express what you do in one word. But you know, that was the word that kept coming to my mind. We're big fans of the Hockey Factory series here. 

Matt Dumouchelle [1:20 - 1:20]: Thank you. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:21 - 1:51]: Yeah, man. I mean, you have really put the time in and put the work in. I know when Hockey Factories came out, it was a top read for, for all the coaches that I know. I mean, we want to know what other people are doing. We want to share that knowledge. You put the time in. So let's start with the origin of that project. You know, where did the idea for Hockey Factories come from? How did it get greenlit? I mean, I'm sure it wasn't just the free frequent flyer miles that you wanted to use to get over to Scandinavia and Europe. Yeah, and in the US and Canada too. It's not, it's not limited to just overseas for sure. 

Matt Dumouchelle [1:51 - 3:31]: Well, I mean the, the origin story of it and not to plug a different podcast on a podcast, please. Always been a fan of the the Glass and Out podcast that the coaches say does and that Aaron Wilbert does. So I had reached out to Aaron, just kind of out of the blue cold call, so to speak, and just told him, hey, like, I'm really a big fan of your podcast. I've got some media credentials to. To my past has Anybody ever interviewed you on your podcast, talk about the things that you've learned from. Like, you're getting the top NHL coaches, the top coaches around the world, regularly, weekly. Has anybody ever talked to you about the things that you've learned by doing that? And we. We ended up connecting. He asked me to host one of his episodes. And. And the. My favorite story of that is I live in Windsor, Ontario, and I'm looking out my window as I'm recording this, and the sky is black. Like, I mean, you can't. There is some sort of thunder, something that's about to roll through. I'm like, please, for the love of God, just keep me on online for the next 25 minutes and we'll be all good. But the podcast went really good. He had asked me afterwards if I had done some writing, and they had kind of had an idea of trying to do some. Some deep dives into some of the best development programs around the world to find out that secret spot, that secret sauce, and how they do what they do and why they always tend to be at the top of the. Of the podium when you think of those best programs around the world, North America, Europe, like you said. And so he had offered me the opportunity to do it. And it's truly been one of the, if not the greatest blessing that I've been given in the time that I've been involved in the game. 

Lee MJ Elias [3:32 - 4:24]: I mean, the service you have provided, not just hockey coaches, but hockey organizations in your research. I cannot say this enough. Thank you for doing it, because we do not share this information enough. And it's one of those things. I mean, we think the kids are stubborn about learning about the game. Right? I'm telling. I think we're all a little stubborn about learning about the game sometimes. You know, there's so many places out there doing it. So the first question I want to ask about the research. You've been to several different programs now, as you said, worldwide. What are the commonalities that are showing success? What are you seeing at each place? I know they're all a little different that you go, wow, there really is this in common with all these places they're getting. Creating elite hockey players. I said it. Elite people. I mean, there are draft picks coming out of these programs. We're talking the best of the best here. 

Matt Dumouchelle [4:24 - 6:28]: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I've been able to do these articles and programs that are located in Finland and Sweden and Germany and North America and all over the place. And the most common thing that comes up In Lee, you're 100% right. My favorite part of the stories that I've been able to tell is that each of them end up taking on a bit of a life their own that, you know, maybe it's a person that you didn't think you were going to connect with or you know, a community itself or, or something along those lines. They, they all kind of have their own purpose and tell their own story. But the commonalities more than anything else is the communication and community of coaches that are involved in those programs. You know, Yokorate in Finland calls it, they're a community of coaches and that means from the U8 to the first team, they are constantly in a communication. They're using the same language. They're aware of what each other is talking about in, in their practices, in their games, what's working for them. Might work for a U14 program age group, it might work for a younger one. It's okay. How do you explain this type of the, of, of drill or, or strategy in the game? Because my kids aren't getting it. It's just constant communication. And I think one of the, that really puts programs in a bad spot right out of the gate is. And it's hard. I understand from a coaching perspective it is a hard thing to do when you're in the middle of a season, but if your organization is U8 to U18, chances are you've got eight or nine different programs or teams within that and it's avoiding staying in that silo and you know, seeing the bigger picture of the association. You know, you're, you're going to have that kid maybe for one year and some pro, some teachers go or coaches will go all the way through. Some go for three years and then go back. You know, there's, there's a bit of a reset and some are just really good at teaching skating to 10 year olds and stay there every year and push things through. 

Lee MJ Elias [6:28 - 7:00]: You know, I gotta ask this though, man, but is it hard? Is it really that hard? Right. I know, I know what you're saying. Right. Yeah, that's, that's the hurdle I think organizations really have to get over. It's, it's. In my opinion, in my, my opinion, it's not that hard to schedule a monthly coaches meeting and to go over things and to encourage, you know, U10 to talk to U12 to talk to U14. Yeah, I, I don't think it's that hard to ask coaches to meet for 30 minutes even, even bi. Monthly. Right. Like just, just do It, Sorry, Christie, go ahead. 

Christie Casciano [7:00 - 7:01]: It's easy not to. 

Lee MJ Elias [7:02 - 7:02]: You know, There you go. 

Matt Dumouchelle [7:02 - 7:03]: For sure. 

Christie Casciano [7:03 - 7:32]: I gotta tell you, I, I really. Now you're pointing something out that I never really noticed before, but now, you know, hindsight's 20 20. Looking back at my kids youth hockey years, yes, it really did seem as if there were eight or nine teams under the umbrella of one organization. And a huge lack of communication from team to team, coach to coach and within the organization. 

Matt Dumouchelle [7:32 - 9:06]: Yeah, yes, absolutely. And it's, it's hard, or I should say it's easy as a coach to silo yourself and be worried about your team and, and trying to develop your players. But the next year, like the, what you have to consider in the big picture of this is you are if, if your kid does not go into Junior and does not go further on, you're 10% of that kid's hockey career. Like that is. That's nothing. So the hard part from being a U9 or a U14 the next year is the coach, either number one, thinks that these kids haven't learned anything because they don't know how to play his system, but they also don't know what his system is. It's a month or a month and a half of having to reteach, okay, we break out a different way. We do this a different way where it doesn't necessarily have to be. This is the definition of what this hockey program looks like. But, but if you're aware, if you know what is coming in, the players that are coming up for you, what they've been taught, where they're lacking, where they exceed, you can adjust how you're going to coach the next year. And the easiest thing to do that. And this is something that, that a lot of programs that I've researched do as well. And it's again, like you talk about it, Lee, it's an easy thing to do. How many times as your U15 head coach ran a practice for the U12s, how many times is your U14 players been on the ice with the U9s? Like that is the community, that's the, the culture that all of that gets built very, very simply. And it just makes everyone in the program more aware of what's happening as opposed to just in their age group? 

Christie Casciano [9:06 - 9:07]: Great idea. 

Mike Bonelli [9:07 - 9:08]: Great idea. 

Christie Casciano [9:08 - 9:11]: Not enough teams do that. Not enough organizations do that. 

Mike Bonelli [9:11 - 10:45]: I should say, right. Lee talks about, you know, it should be easy, right, Matt? And you've been out watching and watching these, you know, the hockey factories that you get to go interview didn't just happen. It's like one, it's not a one year program, right? You're like, oh, you started last year, you're now a hockey factory. You know, it's the building blocks that they put along. But I think, I think the commonalities of the successful programs, there's also commonalities of the ones that aren't right. And I think it's, I think it's, I think it's ego. I don't think it's communication at all. I think it's the inability for coaches at each level to understand A, their place B, their, their strengths and weaknesses and then the bigger organization ability to, you know, manage those people and, and, and, and have the greater good. So can you just talk a little bit about, you know. Well, number one is I think the ones in Europe, right, are probably a little easier to be a hockey factory because there's less movement, like, there's less options. Just like a good coach can't just take 15 kids and go to the next town over, right. Start their own team. Where in North America that happens every day, right? Every, every spring, the, the head coach says, I'm gonna go and take my 15 kids and take my ball and go play somewhere else. And it, and it really becomes hard. So can you talk a little bit about, you know, that, that piece of the culture though, that's in there that enables those individual coaches to be successful that you've seen in these, in these highly successful programs, have their own identity, but also work within the structure of the program itself. 

Matt Dumouchelle [10:45 - 14:07]: Yeah, it's a great point. And a couple of things off that right off the beat with Europe, very different than North America in just the sense of the Runway. So in Europe, we'll use Fronda as an example. Frolanda's goal ultimately with their hockey program and their hockey club is to get as many internal players, so to speak, on their first team so they're not having to go out and buy new players and all of that. Most of them have a mandate that 50% of our first team has to be kids that we've developed through their program. So there's an investment in that already, in that they need these kids to be good and to be able to play on the first team. The different part of that is that when we're talking about players that are on the first team, most of those players make their appearance in the first team at 21 to 22 years old. One thing I notice in Ontario, and it's starting to get a little bit better but it's still got a long way to go. Is the, the mindset that if you don't get picked in the OHL draft, it's pretty much over. Like that's, that's your 15 years old. You're. You're washed up at 17 because they do a U18 draft and sometimes those kids make it and sometimes they don't. And we kind of see the other side of it in Leamington and Junior A. You know that, you know, we have nine kids in the last five years that we've gotten committed to D1 schools. We had a kid that got drafted into the NHL out of. Out of our program, which, you know, for, for some kids, the drop off at 16 or 17 is when they lose interest. So Europe does have a longer Runway for that. But the other thing that they're very specific with, and it's not going to be all clubs, it's really just, you know, the ones that we've been fortunate enough to kind of feature in hockey factories is, you notice with the clubs, the pride that they take within coaching in Frolanda or in Yokurit or in Jung Aldermanheim, where the coaches aren't trying to leapfrog each other to get to that U18 team to be kind of the spotlight coach or whatever. One of the best conversations I've had in doing this, and we've done 11 of them now, was with the U13 head coach at Yokorit. Fantastic conversation about development, about leadership, about all of those things that he's trying to teach that those kids. And he is their U13 head coach. So every year kids cycle through whatever. He is just really good with that age group. And so the players that are coming up know that they're going to get Corson as a head coach when they get to U13. It helps sell the program and it gives him the opportunity to be really, really good at what he's really, really good at. And, and there's not, you know, he's not concerned with moving up. He's not concerned with trying to take over somebody's role or anything like that. Just as an example. So they're, the coaches are given a lot of leeway into how they create their practice plans, what a day to day kind of looks like. But at the end of the day or the end of the year, they have ways that they evaluate that team. And those individual coaches, they do a lot of coach learning and a lot of development in that aspect as well, because there's certain boxes that they got to check at the end of the year and not necessarily worried about how they get there, so to speak. But these kids have to be able to translate that to the next year because they don't want to lose that month at the beginning where they have to re. Teach. And. And instead of reaffirming. 

Mike Bonelli [14:07 - 14:45]: I don't. I. I would just want to put a button too on the, on what you talked about earlier about the mandate of players staying within the organization. Imagine like you, all your program leaders that are out there listening to this right now. Imagine if you're a mandate was you had 50 of your 14U team from the organization that started when they were 6U. Imagine how much you'd have to change your model. I mean, in a good way. In a good way like that. To me, like an organization I used to be involved in for a long time, for 10 years, we used to have. They still have the award. They would give a big award out to the kids that played their hockey from might to midget. And they would get a check back. Like you would get money back. 

Matt Dumouchelle [14:45 - 14:46]: Like, beautiful. 

Mike Bonelli [14:46 - 16:25]: Here's. Here's like a significant amount of money. It's not a little bit of money. This is a lot of money that you came in as a, As a beginner player. You had to learn to play hockey. And you. And you graduated as a. And you know, that was. There was. There was a lot to be said. But the culture with that family and that kid in that program, you know, was. It was amazing to watch because you don't see that in our programs. You, you know, right now, you know, you walk into any garage in North America and there might be six different helmets in there by the time the kids are 10 years old. And you're like, well, you know, how is this possible? Where in these other, you know, when we get back to talking, like when we're talking about hockey factories, it's the culture of whether you're at Shadic St. Mary's for three years or four years. It's the ability or. Or a European comp, you know, European brand for 10 years, 12 years. It's the, it's the consistency of the way the player is treated and the way they respect the program. And it really does go both ways. And I think, you know, you bring that out a lot in your writings and, and, you know, your research that those organizations really get to mold the person because they really know who the person is. You know, both. And the coaches too. Right? I can't even imagine having to get a different, you know, 10U coach every single year, by the time they've run into your culture, it's like, oh, they're moving on and then all over again. So really, like I said, I think, I think that was one of the. But what I found with, through your research was just the ability for those organizations to be successful because they allowed their players to mature in the program and they really know their players. They're. They're not guessing what they can do. They know what those players can do for sure. 

Matt Dumouchelle [16:25 - 17:22]: And you know, Jung Aldermanheim is a great example of it because like, when you say, you know, it goes both ways in Germany, you know, hockey is maybe the fourth or fifth most most popular sport. So they have to get kids in early. They have to get them to fall in love with the game and stay with the game because ultimately, you know, the, the benefit and, and crux sometimes in North America is there's always another kid, you know, where, where in Germany or some of these other places. There, there isn't. They have to develop the players that are in their program because there aren't another kid that they can just reach out and take and plug and play and kind of go from there. So the, like you said, Mike, the, the commitment is there from the families because of how well they're treated and how much they're learning and developing as a person and all of those things. And from the club standp. They have to do this because it's probably a lot cheaper to go get a soccer ball and, and go play soccer indoor in the winter instead. 

Lee MJ Elias [17:22 - 20:53]: You know, I got to bring it up. There's so much talk in a positive way on this episode already about the people aspect of this, the community aspect of this. And I think that amongst the successful programs I've seen, there's a clear commitment to that. You know, I wrote down your Matt as a joke. You know, we always talk in the United States about, you know, player specialization and how that's not a good thing. But you mentioned coaching specialization and that is a good thing. Right? And look, when, when you look at North America, obviously look 12 you and down you have a lot of parent volunteers and, and I always say parents, we always appreciate that but it's, it's on the organization to really take a step up to help educate those parents. Because look, you never know if there's a coach in those parents that could want to coach beyond 12U first off, right? And then there has to be that educational piece. I'd love the statement the community of coaches. There's a coaching Team. Right. I want to, I just want to revisit that for a minute because again, I think organizations can do this. I think that the directors of hockey or the leaders of the organizations, again, I don't think you have to do it monthly, but at the beginning of the season, there has to be a broad view of from, from 8 to 18. This is what we're looking to accomplish. These are our goals. Right? That's an easy solution we can all implement now. And I do not think it would take a lot of work. If you are a hockey director and you go, well, I don't even know where to start with that. It's out there already. You can look it up. It's. You go to Google. I mean, go to the coach's site. There's a lot of places you can go to look this stuff up to better your organization. And you know, when I, when I, I don't want to say deal with parents. When I speak with parents, the concern. And this is, Mike, to your point, they, they jump. They jump from program to program. I always say, what are they really looking for? Right? And, and it's not always the logo. It's not always the facilities. It's. They're looking for someone that, that generally cares about their kid. All right? And look, you're not going to get 100% of that ever in any organization. But when I look back to the coaches that had an impact on my life, I had a lot of coaches. Some of them I've probably forgotten, right? But the ones that have had the impact, I could tell a, they really cared about me as a person. They cared about my development, right. They wanted to teach me the game. And I think, to your point, Matt, and again, we'll keep going back to the, the series in a minute. I think every coach, whether you're a volunteer to the highest level coach in the organization, if you're not striving to both educate yourself every day, if you're not striving to educate your kids to go the extra mile, if you're not striving to encourage, encourage your kids to ask questions, right? We're doing this right now on one of my teams, we told the kids, ask, I want you to bring three questions every practice I want you to ask, right? And none of the coaches like, I don't want to do that, you know, So I, I, the point I'm trying to make is this. I think that the desire broadly not. You're not gonna get 100. The desire is there. I think people might Groan like, oh, I got another meeting this month. They're all gonna be there. All right. I think, again, you're seeing that one distinction I do want to make. You had talked about the top team before, just for our audience here who might have younger kids. So in, in Europe and in other countries, the top team could be a semi pro or pro team. Right. So when I was coaching in England, as an example, the Phantoms was the pro team there, and the youth organization was also the Phantoms, and you would graduate up to the top team. So. So just saying that, Matt, for those of you who don't know, the European model is very different from the American model, where the, the, the organization you're playing for probably has a pro team. You mentioned yoker it. Right. A lot of these teams have a top team. So I just wanted to make sure we explain that real quick. 

Matt Dumouchelle [20:53 - 22:20]: Yeah, for sure. And, and the value for, for them. You know, obviously you're, you're going to hear about all these programs and, and from our end in North America, you hear about them through the NHL draft, but in, in Europe, like, for these kids, and, and we kind of have talked about this, all four of us at different parts. Like it means something to them to play for the first team at Frolanda, because they have been with Frolanda their entire hockey lives. Yeah, they are through and through. Right. So it's, it's neat to kind of hear that and experience that all the way through. But I wanted to go back to one of the things that you were talking about there, Lee, and just the value with, with working with your coaches, you know, take some time. If you have a director of coaching or a director of player development or whatever that is within your program. It doesn't have to be monthly, like you said. Maybe it's quarterly. Maybe it's, you know, once at the beginning of the year at Christmas, before the playoff. How often are you getting all of your coaches out on the ice to run them through a practice so they can see different angles, different drills, exchange different ideas? You know, oh, hey, I do this with my 14 team and they love this. You know, why doesn't every coach bring a drill to an hour practice and you just fly through them like nobody cares if you're going to fall on your butt like it's, it's bound to happen. I, I've not, I wouldn't say coach. I've helped with my little guy's team, and he's seven. And I can assure you that I'm in the bottom tier of skaters among. 

Lee MJ Elias [22:21 - 22:24]: You're gonna find out who has ego real quick in a practice like that. 

Matt Dumouchelle [22:24 - 23:15]: Really, really quick. But that's. It's all about exchanging ideas and just sharing, you know, that. What, what you've learned to help, you know, end of the day, I truly do believe that the people that invest their time to be a coach in, in a hockey organization, in, in any, you know, gymnastics and music of, of any sort of, of extracurricular for kids truly want the best for the kids that they're helping out and, and may not even know if that. Not to say they're being a deterrent or that they're. They're having a negative impact. But I always go back to Stefan Govan, who's the principal at Notre Dame. I did an article in the University of Notre Dame Hounds in Saskatchewan, and his line as a principal is you. You're always. It's such a prestigious position because you're always one bad line away from turning a kid off the game or off school forever. 

Lee MJ Elias [23:16 - 23:16]: Right. 

Matt Dumouchelle [23:16 - 23:54]: It's. It's a real true responsibility that at any age, you know, you can't go in and kick a garbage can because you lose in U13 because there might be a kid in there that it either scares or they've not seen it before. Maybe it reminds them of something that they've dealt with at home before. And like, it can have a really, really strong impact on a kid without even knowing it. So the coaching is make or break for every program that I've researched. And I think anywhere that you kind of look in sport, that coach has such a valuable role in the play, 100%. 

Christie Casciano [23:54 - 25:24]: I was hoping we could talk a little bit about development and the patience that's needed because based on an email I just got yesterday from a hockey moment, there's a little rift in the family. So the husband is very. Because now's the time when, you know, parents are kind of starting to look back at the season. Was this successful season, success? And how do you put the label on success? Well, the dad, to him, success is how many wins? How many tournaments have we won? To the mom, it's, how did our son. It's 8U. How did our son develop? Is he skating better? Did he score a couple more goals? Is he happy? Is he having fun? So there's a real rift. Dad says yesterday we're yanking him from the program. I'm tired of it. He's better than the rest of the kids. He's not playing to his level because they're losing they haven't won a single tournament. And that's how he puts a label on success is how many tournaments if you want. And the mom says no time out. There are peaks and valleys in the season. And look at him. He's happy. He loves his friends. Nope, we're yanking him because this is a losing, losing program. 

Lee MJ Elias [25:24 - 25:26]: Is it eight you, Christie. 

Mike Bonelli [25:28 - 25:30]: When I wrote that email. Chris. 

Matt Dumouchelle [25:32 - 25:35]: Christie, I think you've, I think. 

Christie Casciano [25:38 - 25:42]: Probably not the only hockey household out there in America. 

Matt Dumouchelle [25:42 - 25:43]: No. 

Christie Casciano [25:43 - 25:56]: There's some, you know, rips in the family. What, what truly is development at 8U at the age of AU. And then they say it's measured in trophies and wins and banners. 

Mike Bonelli [25:56 - 25:57]: Yeah. 

Matt Dumouchelle [25:57 - 26:57]: I think you've just filled the, the rest of this episode and maybe the next one with, with that, with that topic or that question. It's a great one. And absolutely, there are, there are people out there who, and this isn't to say to classify people as, as a bad thing, but there, there are people out there that are, are looking for banners that want, you know, medals at the end of the year to, to consider that a success. And there are people out there that are hoping that their kid learns something that will take them through to school or to home or something that they'll be proud of to say that they did one day. And again, fortunate, with the way that I'm tied into this, working with the Leamington flyers in the O.J. i mean, the one thing that I say to parents all the time that I talk to, like, you may have, like, if you've got Connor McDavid sleeping in your house, if you've got Connor Bedard, that's great. If he's not 16 years old, we can't touch him. Like, he can't play for us. 

Mike Bonelli [26:57 - 26:57]: He can't. 

Matt Dumouchelle [26:57 - 27:44]: You know, it's great. If he's nine years old, he has not hit puberty. He has not figured out what his body is going to do as far as growth or how it's going to carry, distribute weight. It's, it's, it's a very frustrating outlook. I think at the end of the day, people want to win. Of course, everybody wants to win. We all have a competitive side. We're all, to an extent, crazy hockey dads that, you know, my little guy's a goalie, and if he gives one up, I don't want to walk through the lobby sometimes. And. But it is what it is. And you have to, like, there's no sense in, in hiding that he, he gives up a goal and he Comes over to me after the game and, and he asked me how he did. So I am very purposeful in the way that I have that conversation with him. And the first thing I ask him every time is, did you have fun? 

Christie Casciano [27:45 - 27:45]: Cut. 

Matt Dumouchelle [27:45 - 29:07]: If he says that he had fun, awesome. All right, let's grab your stuff. Let's get back in the car. I hear parents that, you know, within our, our program, not necessarily directed towards mine, but grumbling about how we, we can't score and our goalie stinks and this and that, like, you know, truly. And, and this isn't to discount what, what you're doing as far as the work that you do with our kids play hockey or anything. But at that age, none of this matters. None of this matters, right? It's, it's hard to understand. And the comparison that I've, I try to use, I don't have any money in the stock market because I don't have any money. But there's a lot of people that, that put money away specifically to let it sit there and grow and they're not going to touch it. And end of the day they're going to pull that out and it's going to be worth whatever else it is more just because they let it go and let the time eat away at that money. Where we're, you know, we're recording this in January and that means that's four or five months into a hockey season and you're thinking about pulling your kid out. At some point, your kid is either going to, and this is going to sound harsh, they're either going to despise you because of what they're putting you through, or they're going to despise hockey. And I truly don't think that's the intention of moving that kid around. 

Christie Casciano [29:07 - 29:07]: Right. 

Matt Dumouchelle [29:07 - 30:03]: But that's, that's the, that's the trickle down effect. We're going to see this a lot in Ontario because they just made the announcement about open borders. So now you have an opportunity to go wherever you want at any time, as long as there's availability to go play. And we're worried about super teams and we're worried about, I'm taking my kid, my kid is, I'm taking my kid out and I'm taking five of them with me down, down the street. And you know, it's gonna be, it's gonna be the wild, wild west for, for a little while. But I think it's also an incredible opportunity for organizations to separate themselves and their values and, and be able to explain to families in their area or elsewhere that when you sign up with ABC that this is what you're going to get. This is how we're going to develop your. Your program. This is how we're going to develop your son or daughter. And if you like it, you're in. If not, there's going to be plenty of other places to go. 

Lee MJ Elias [30:03 - 30:21]: You know, Matt, I got to say this, too. On all the stuff we're talking about, you don't hear the great story of Wayne Gretzky or Connor McDavid or Mark Messi and how their parents just drilled them into the ground and they were horrible. But you know what? They became Wayne Gretzky. What you hear is how wonderful their parents are. 

Christie Casciano [30:21 - 30:21]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [30:21 - 30:44]: There's actually plenty of stories of professional athletes whose parents were horrible to them. And these players have alcohol problems or they've left the game or substance abuse problems, and now they talk about. There's plenty of those stories. All right. The other way around doesn't happen. Right? The other thing I got to say, and I think this is a super point, okay? Everybody wants to win. I agree with that. 

Matt Dumouchelle [30:44 - 30:45]: Don't. 

Lee MJ Elias [30:45 - 32:09]: Never disagreed with that. I was given a speech one time, and I said, you have to redefine winning for your team. And I was kind of saying it nonchalantly, and I was shocked when one of the football coaches in this conference came up to me and he said, this kind of changed my perspective on things. He said, you know, I didn't want to be here today because I didn't think I was going to learn anything. And he goes, I never thought about winning in other. Any other way other than winning games, because that's what winning always was for me. He goes, and you just inspired me to realize he's coaching high school sports, that there's a lot of different ways to define this word winning, Right? So bringing this back to hockey factories, I have a feeling amongst the organizations that you've seen, the good ones have redefined what winning is, and it's probably not trophies and banners. I think you alluded to this earlier. A win for us is to graduate a player to our top team. A win for us is creating a. A good person, a good player. A win for us is our coaching team. You said a community of coaches. So why don't we, on this episode right now, for those of you listening, redefine winning? And for the parents and coaches listening, I am not saying it's not important to win games. I don't want anybody taking that from this Conversation. I'm just trying to say that's not the only win. And we as a society in hockey have really got to change that thought process. To your point, Christie, the schmuck who wants to move his kid out if. 

Matt Dumouchelle [32:09 - 32:13]: I like, he's right there, Lee, he's sitting in the bottom corner of the screen. 

Christie Casciano [32:17 - 32:19]: To the podcast. And the dad doesn't. 

Lee MJ Elias [32:20 - 32:25]: I'm never worried, I'm never worried about these people hearing me because they don't listen. And if they do, welcome aboard. 

Mike Bonelli [32:25 - 32:55]: Right, but, but, but let's, but for the Hockey Factories piece, right? Matt, how many, how many organizations have that are you tasked to go interview that have 100 graduation record and haven't won a game in five years? So it just, it just comes down. I, I listen, I get it. I mean, you know, an old me would have said, well, those are statements by guys that don't win, right? So you know, if I'm a winner. 

Lee MJ Elias [32:55 - 32:57]: You know what, Mike? I win a lot. I do. 

Mike Bonelli [32:59 - 33:29]: But I think that the mentality of a player, a parent, I'm not going to say a player. The mentality of a parent that goes into these organizations thinking that the reason I'm going in, I had a conversation with an ex pro or an ex pro player who's coaching, overheard a parent talking about needing to leave. They couldn't take the two and a half hour commute. They couldn't get to their rank. It was too much pressure on my kid. The schoolwork is killing them. The other parent says, you cannot leave here. This is your ticket to the NHL. This is a nine year old. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:29 - 33:31]: Nine year old. 

Mike Bonelli [33:31 - 33:49]: You're playing, you're playing in this organization because this is what, this is what, oh, this is what brings you to the next level. And that the head coach, the ex pro is like, I almost had to go to the bathroom and puke. Like, that's not my, that's not my responsibility. 

Matt Dumouchelle [33:49 - 33:49]: Right? 

Mike Bonelli [33:49 - 34:38]: Like, don't put that on me. And I think this is where, but the fact is when, when hockey, lacrosse, soccer, basketball, when these, when these families go into these places, when I get into a hockey factory, my, my expectation is it might be wrong, but my expectation is yes, okay, great, I'm gonna graduate. That's great. But our, what championships are we winning? You know, how are we going to win? But so my guess, my question back to you is when you, every leader you talk to in those organizations, in all the, all 11 hockey factory places you've been, how many times did the leaders of those organization refer to themselves as Me or the organization as me. And how many times have they said what I've done here? Ever? 

Matt Dumouchelle [34:38 - 36:34]: Yeah, you know, Mike, two things to that. The word we compared to we or I is an astronomical difference in the way that they communicate. And, and I've had specific conversations with a few clubs. Frolanda was one of them, where I have to, I realized two or three interviews in. I have to ask somebody, like, like what, what about winning? Like, you guys don't even talk about it. It's not even, it's not even brought up. So, you know, and maybe there's a chart to this and maybe there's a line to it. And I agree. You know, I, I was playing before it started snowing here. I was playing horse with my stepdaughter in the, in the driveway in the basketball net, and I got down h o R and I wanted to win. I can tell you that. I was, I was starting to, to take some shots that I knew she couldn't make and, and tried to, to tighten the score a little bit. I, I love, I love winning just like, just like everybody else. But at, at 8 years old, 9 years old, 10 years old, all you're trying to do is to make this child obsessed with playing hockey. All they want to know is the next time they're going to the rink to see their friends at 15, 14, 15, 16. Yeah. If you're at the bottom of the barrel and you're not winning, that's going to poison the clubhouse or your locker room. That's going to poison the parent group. That's, that's going to bleed through the whole thing. You do have to win at some point. You have to experience that. I've always been a big fan of clubs that lose first and then win. And you can see that in the NHL and any number of other sports in pro or anything downward, like the teams that lose the Stanley cup the year before, the ones that I bet my money on, are going to win it the next year. Because experiencing that and knowing what it takes to get to that is important. But at 10 years old, all that matters is that kid is just looking forward to going back to the rink again. 

Christie Casciano [36:35 - 36:37]: Good. Thank you for sharing that. 

Lee MJ Elias [36:38 - 36:39]: And again, you can validate it, what. 

Christie Casciano [36:39 - 36:42]: The mom was feeling for sure. 

Mike Bonelli [36:42 - 37:19]: Right. But that sounds so sane. That sounds so sane. But I, I think it's, you know, but again, that's what we, that's like our, our audience, like, you know, we laugh all the time, like, just said like the people you need to listen and the People that need to have these conversations, the people that have to engage in the back and forth of what does winning really mean? And not that we want to lose. There's a, there's like. It's such a weird conversation to have because you're, you're always speaking to high performers. You're speaking to the best of the best. You're speaking to people that win all the time and they're saying, yeah, yeah, winning, that's great, that's great. But that's just, that's just a byproduct of the fact that we're doing all these other things. Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [37:20 - 38:21]: Well, the research is there, guys. And Matt, that's why we were so excited to have you on this episode, because we're not having just a hypothetical conversation here about this. This is like a proven, researched science. Now and again, not only they winning in the, in the traditional definition, they're creating NHL level talent or pro level talent. Right? So, you know, I, I just, I gotta say it again, you know, and when you, you made this point a minute ago. Gretzky didn't win in the NHL right away. Crosby did not win. His. Crosby is one of the worst teams in NHL history his first year. You know, McDavid, I mean, I'm not going to talk about the Oilers and how their troubles lasted forever. All right? Not to mention this, too. And I'm only going to go back to this one more time, you know, Christie, to that email. And I'm not saying this lightly. If the kid was that good, I don't think the team would be bad. Right? Because the kid would spread it out and help the other kids out or score goals. Remember this, my friends, when Wayne Gretzky was scoring 400 goals a season, they still lost games, right? He didn't. You don't hear about. He went undefeated in his peewee year. You don't hear that story. 

Matt Dumouchelle [38:22 - 38:22]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [38:22 - 38:34]: In fact, he tells stories of losing a game and not scoring goals. Right. So we gotta change what winning is defined as. And there can be. This is the other half of it. More than one definition. Imagine that. 

Matt Dumouchelle [38:34 - 39:35]: Yeah. And it's a great example of that. One thing that I've encouraged some, some local groups around, local clubs around here that I've done some, some work with. Make up a bingo card, fill it out with anything that you're encouraging in practice or anything else. You know, it can be, you know, blocking a shot or a clean line change or like just, just basic stuff. Because I can tell you when there's four things in the line. If you're losing seven to one in some tournament and it's been a long weekend, but. But you've got four boxes checked and there's one more thing to do, and it's, you know, make a clean pass on the neutral zone. If you've got the right group and you've done your job to get that. That buy in from those players, man, those kids are going to be humming that puck through the neutral zone blindly, probably just hoping to connect it. And then you celebrate it like hell on the bench. And people are going to look at you funny because you're losing. But it's internal. It means something to you guys, and that's. That can be you. You won that game just by completing that pass and checking a box on a sheet. 

Lee MJ Elias [39:35 - 40:06]: We last kids had a game last night. And again, look, kids are. I don't. I don't want to say poisoned, I was thinking that word. But the kids are inundated with highlight reel goals via social media, YouTube, whatever. So they see these highlights, right? And like any kid, they want to emulate it. And we had this moment last night. I thought we were getting kind of fancy. And I said to the kids, point black, I said, do you want a highlight goal or do you want to win the game? And to their credit, that we want to win the game, I said, all right, then listen, these are the things we got to do if you want to win the game, all right? I'm talking literally winning right now. 

Matt Dumouchelle [40:06 - 40:06]: We. 

Lee MJ Elias [40:06 - 41:33]: We. I love the idea of a bingo card, right? This. This broad understanding of the. The. The facets of the game. And also to your point, for everybody listening, we say this. It takes a long time to cook a hockey player. You got to keep them in the oven. If you. Have you ever had a turkey that was undercooked? It's not good, guys, all right? Might look good on the outside. It's not good, right? You got to know how to do it. You got to read the temperature on the inside. You got to know the timing. You got to know all these things. That's enough of that metaphor. I'm writing these things down. Again, the wins. We're defining wins here, right? The we over me mentality. The. The coaching community, the winning is not the win. The literal definition of winning, I think, you know, obviously, the bingo card, right? Spreading out the understanding of knowledge. These are wins, my friend. Again, proven wins to success. We're not guessing here today, right? Also, Mike, to your point, I was gonna say we're always inviting people that don't agree with us onto this show, but I think the beauty of this show is how many people listen. Because I think that what it's showing is there are a lot of really good people out there, parents out there, coaches out there that have this well being mindset, but we haven't given them the opportunity to speak until this show came around. So that's what this broadcast is all about now. That's the work that you're doing is all about we're sharing that knowledge and I think that that base is growing. Matt, back to you. Are there other wins, other commonalities that we haven't seen yet, we haven't discussed yet? 

Matt Dumouchelle [41:33 - 45:43]: Yeah, from, from the different clubs. I mean, one of the things that, again, the communication amongst coaches is, is always going to be the, the biggest, the biggest part of that for sure. I think one of the things that they do an exceptional job of, and we kind of brushed on this a little bit earlier too, is it's, it's about the club. It's not about an individual coach or an individual player or a specific age group or anything like that. Like you're wearing the jersey of your, your club. So how do you, how do you build a culture around your club? And for, for some right or right, wrong or indifferent, some of it is, you know, we've got banners hanging from banners because there's so many banners in our rafters. For some it's, you know, the, the kids that come through go off to a certain school or they, you end up seeing a lot of kids. There was a lot of kids from this program that got drafted or there was a lot of kids that went through and did this, that, whatever. To go back to some of the, the European clubs too, you know, the value that they see in, in the way that they are developing these, these players is far beyond their experience as a hockey player. Maybe they end up playing for the first team, which is ultimately one of the biggest goals of these programs. But also maybe one day they're going to have a kid that's interested in hockey and guess what program they're going to want to lean into. Maybe that person is going to start a business one day and is going to want to sponsor the program financially. And they look so far beyond that. You know, one that was, they got a really, really deep emotional conversation with Jugarden was, you know, like, maybe this guy one day is going to end up being a doctor, right? And maybe one of our kids in 20 years is going to have a problem. And maybe this Doctor is going to help our kid because, oh, you're your garden kid. You know, there's that familiarity. It means something to them. Notre Dame was the best example of that. And I had a great conversation with, with a couple of their coaches and, and players and stuff. And the one that kind of stands out when we talk about that is Delaney Collins, who does coach with a few different European clubs. And she was, he's helped coach with Team Canada as well. She talks about how there are hounds everywhere and it's used as, as a descriptive word of the person as a human being. Like they refer to themselves as a hound. The time that they've spent there and what they invested in there, you know, financially, personally, professionally, all that, like, it's a characteristic that they use to describe themselves. And again, that's something that any organization across this globe can do for free is, is to create that identity and that pride. And that gets done by, like we said at the beginning of the conversation, weaving the entire club into each other. You know, have a U16 game and bring all the U8 kids out on the ice at the end of the game. Like, that's who those kids think are, are superstars. You know, they know who Connor McDavid and Connor Bedard is and all that stuff, you know, and I'm, I'm so blessed that my, to be involved with, with hockey with my little guy. You know, I get to take him to Leamington Flyers games all the time. You ask him who his favorite goalie is or his favorite player is, he's naming Sebastian Gatto, who was our goaltender last year, Bryce Walcherius, who won, you know, a Sutherland cup for us a couple of years ago. Like, his favorite players are guys that he gets the fist pump every Thursday when I get to take him to the rink. You know, he knows who Andre Vasilevsky is and he knows who Mark, Andre Fleury is and all these guys. But like, he gets, he's got pictures with all the goalies. Some of the goalies have given them like broken sticks that they have. And this is, he is in awe of these people. And these are 18 year olds that ultimately won't play NHL likely unless something wild were to happen. And that's not a knock on them, that's just the percentage of, of getting a chance to play in the NHL. But these are the guys that, that he looks up to. So if you build a club around that and an entire mentality of, you know, I'm a hound, I'm a flyer, I'm you know, whatever. There's. There's so much value in that, in a. In a community that's going to carry all over that. That town or that, that environment. 

Lee MJ Elias [45:43 - 45:51]: Yeah. And it can't be assumed. This is, this is a mistake. I see, you know, at least in my area, a lot, that it's assumed that you play for the team. So you're going to love that team. 

Mike Bonelli [45:52 - 45:52]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [45:52 - 47:31]: And we can do a lot more as organizations than just selling hoodies and T shirts. Make you really feel like you're part of an organization. I think that is not just in the coaching community talking, but players talking to other players. You said it earlier in, in the show, Matt. Do your older players come and skate with the younger players? Right. Do the older coaches do that? Now, I see this actually in school teams a bit more. Right. I know in our, in our elementary school, the varsity high school kids will come out. They are superheroes to these kids. Yeah, superheroes. Right. And. And what does that create? It creates this. I want to be on that team one day. I want to be a varsity player for this school one day. In club hockey. I mean, again, you might see this at the Tier 1, Triple A level because of the prestigiousness. You know, I'm saying that a little bit with Italicist on that, but like, you know, where is this within your club of creating that or, or a handoff point of, you know, you can graduate to this team or this club. That's amazing stuff. The other thing, too, we said this a long time ago. I go to rinks all the time and I see championship banners. I see these kids all went to NCAA schools. I don't understand why we don't celebrate beyond that. All academic athletes. I don't understand why we don't talk about this kid became a doctor, he said that, or whatever. However you want to do. There's nothing wrong with being a electrician either. Okay. I'm not, I'm not, not saying one job is better than the other. We don't do anything to celebrate beyond the game. And I think that the organization listening to this, that does that, not only are you going to stand out from the other organizations, but you'll probably weed out the people you don't want by doing that. 

Mike Bonelli [47:31 - 47:31]: All right? 

Lee MJ Elias [47:31 - 47:51]: I. I can't imagine a parent actually. Let me rephrase that. I can't imagine a parent. I can't imagine most parents would see that type of environment, you know, a healthy environment like that, and go, nope, not good enough for my kid. They're A Gretzky. Right. Because those people exist is why I retracted that a little bit. I, I wish we would do more. It actually brings me to the next question. 

Mike Bonelli [47:51 - 47:51]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [47:51 - 48:05]: We're talking a lot about the things that we see that works. You've been around North America. What are the things you would eliminate immediately from youth organizations based on the research that you've done, right? 

Matt Dumouchelle [48:05 - 49:30]: Oh, that's a great question. That's a great, great question. I think there's, I think there's a place for a lot of the things that we already do that, that we don't do well. You know, an example of that, and I go off track for just a second is like the parent player surveys that we send out. Like are we using those to the best of our ability? Is know, are you asking a yes or no and why question and getting true responses from that or is it, you know, this, this kids, this coach is terrible. This, you know, I, I saw a copy of it and that's why I bring it up because it's kind of top of mind. One that was sent for an organization in Ontario around Christmas break and seven families replied. Three of them were almost word for word said, this is the worst coach my son has ever played for. The other four, this is the best experience that kids, it's the same coach. So we're missing something there. We're missing something. What do we eliminate? I think at the younger years, I think we have to eliminate positioning. I think we have to find a way to move kids around to see different angles of the game from different spots. I find it hard to believe that we can say a 9 year old is a defenseman or a 10 year old is a center. Because they're all centers. You know, they're all of them. 

Lee MJ Elias [49:30 - 49:32]: They all want that face off, man. 

Matt Dumouchelle [49:32 - 51:50]: Yeah. So if there's a way to, to eliminate that, to almost make it, you know, you're making it as five kids come on. Five kids come off. Positionless hockey, I think is something that is going to be coming down the pipeline if not used very regularly very soon. Yeah, in, in because of how we see defensemen in the NHL now. And Cale Makar is a first line forward least half of the NHL just, just by his, his pure skill alone. And it adds such a weapon by, by being there that to me would be one that we get away from at the beginning and, and somehow create a younger platform for just more free play. You know, we, we structure our practices because our, our practices ice times expensive, the equipment is expensive. What the Parents are paying for year after year is expensive, obviously. So do we want to see, do parents want to see their kids just kind of skating around and floating around on the ice for an hour at 9 o'clock at night? Probably most, most don't really. And that, that's not a knock on, on anybody. But to, you know, if we invest more in the love of the game at younger ages, I think is only going to benefit us down the road because, you know, the, the, that's where Europe again, they've got a longer Runway. They can take their time doing that. Yokorate. They talk puck. The, you know, first year that you're with them, they're talking about playing offense without, with the puck. They're, that's what they're coaching. That's what they're emphasizing in, in practices. They, they lose 8:1, they win 8:1. That's what they're talking about the next year. It's playing offense without the puck and then the next year is playing defense against the puck carrier the next year. Like it's broken down and it's, it's taken that much time. Where we're trying to do this in one year every time and not communicated with, with the most, that would be the biggest thing I would take away. It's a great question. I'm sure I'll have an answer in half hour when we're, when we're done here. But if you take away the, the structure at younger ages or, or you know, create goals instead of winning this game or this tournament or whatever, I think is going to better or give you a better opportunity to have those kids honed in owning their development at older years. 

Christie Casciano [51:51 - 52:17]: Yeah, I know. My son at age 9 was told by the coach, you're a born defenseman. Yeah, it's at age nine. And that was locked in his head at age nine. So he played defense all through AAA hockey and high school and he was very good at it because he, and I think one of the reasons why they put him in that position is because he was very good at skating backwards and a lot of the other kids couldn't. So. 

Matt Dumouchelle [52:17 - 52:17]: Right. 

Christie Casciano [52:17 - 52:20]: You skate backwards. You're a born defenseman. 

Matt Dumouchelle [52:20 - 52:48]: You know, Christie, it's funny that you say that because when you ask some kids that have only played a certain position why they got into it. And I say this with, with my kid playing as, as a goalie, like he volunteered. There's no other goalies on the team. So he's, he's the goalie, the defenseman that can skate Backwards or the forward that might be a little bit taller than Everybody else at 9 years old. Like, I don't know. I just ended up. Up being put there. And, and that's why I'm a, that's why I'm a left winger. Right. It doesn't necessarily have to. Have to exist. 

Lee MJ Elias [52:48 - 52:55]: You would never tell your kid at 9 years old, you're a plumber. You're going to be a plumber. 

Matt Dumouchelle [52:55 - 52:55]: Right? 

Lee MJ Elias [52:55 - 53:17]: You're gonna, you would never do that. And what's funny is there were societies in hundreds of years, past, centuries past, that that was the way society worked. And those societies didn't evolve ever. You know what I mean? Like, they didn't involve. You would never say that to your kid. You're going to be a plumber. I think it's interesting you bring this up, man, because I just had a parent. 

Christie Casciano [53:17 - 53:18]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [53:18 - 54:13]: Like, really asking me hard, why don't they know this position? They need to have positions. And I, I told this parent, I said, they need to experience all the positions. Yeah, right. They need to learn. And it was. I got so much pushback, Christie, on that. Of, well, how are they ever going to, to be winning if they don't know? I was like, man, we're missing the point. And I'm gonna say it, too. You've hinted to this a couple times, Matt. Is that the love of the game, especially at the younger ages? Again, most of our audience is the younger ages, okay? You can cultivate it. You can't create it. I always tell that to parents. You cannot put your love of the game into your kid. That's not how this works. But you can cultivate it, all right? You can help them experience it. You can help them find that joy. But if you're forcing anything on them. What do kids do when you force it? Put your jacket on. No. Why? It's 20 degrees. I don't want to put my jacket on. I mean, this is a conversation everyone on this call has had at least once. All right? 

Matt Dumouchelle [54:13 - 54:15]: Today, Today. 

Lee MJ Elias [54:15 - 54:40]: There you go. You got to cultivate it. You know, hey, it's cold outside. And again, obviously, depending on your home. No, they will put the jacket on if it's cold, but at some point when they're a little older, you got to let them figure it out. You might have to let them walk home without the jacket one day and suddenly it's their idea. Yeah. Or, or, Mike, you and I joke about this all the time. I, I could tell my kid to put my. His or her jacket on 100 times. But Mike, if you tell them to put the jacket on, they're gonna put the jacket on. Because. Because Mike Bonelli told him to put the jacket on. 

Mike Bonelli [54:40 - 54:42]: Hey, I'll pay for somebody just to do that for. 

Matt Dumouchelle [54:42 - 54:44]: There's a new business idea. 

Lee MJ Elias [54:45 - 55:06]: Matt, one. Here's another question for you. We talked a lot about coaches and organizations. What are the parents like within some of these hockey factories? Right. Are they, are they knocking on the director's door like, I need my kid to make the NHL, Please, could you. My kid's the best kid out there. I need him off this team. What are the parents like in other countries and other factors? Not just other countries. 

Matt Dumouchelle [55:06 - 55:12]: Yeah, you know, you know, it's, it's funny. It's not as different as we'd like to think. 

Lee MJ Elias [55:12 - 55:13]: I believe that. 

Matt Dumouchelle [55:13 - 55:54]: Yeah, it's, it's not. And, and some of that comes from the stigma of being, you know, like for London, wearing it up a couple of times. Like for London's the New York Yankees. Like, that's, that's, you know, the top of the totem pole for, for hockey in Sweden. Zug in Switzerland is, is another one. So it's, it's very different in the way that it's approached by the club. Some have, you know, you can do the contract thing with parents, you can have the 24 hour rule and all those. That, all. That's good things. I think the one thing that we've, that, that I've pulled from, from some of these programs is it's the program that makes this decision a lot faster than the parent. 

Lee MJ Elias [55:55 - 55:55]: Yeah. 

Matt Dumouchelle [55:55 - 57:14]: Because, you know, there is a certain stand. This isn't that individual team. This is the club and the clubs and the logo on the front instead of the name on the back and all of that stuff. Right. So I know they would. As much as I tried to use my investigative skills to get some names out of them, I never got names. But I can tell you there's a few clubs in Europe that had some pretty high profile players at the time that either just passed on them or let them go. And that was strictly around the attitude of the families like you. You're getting, you know, you're, you're not, it's, you know the old saying, like, you're not marrying the woman, you're marrying her family as well. Yeah, that's, that's exactly what this is. And there's, there's a lot of clubs that, and this isn't just the great ones that I focused on. There's, there's plenty in North America that do the same thing. If it's not worth it, it's not going to be worth it. And, and that that kid's tone may not change or that parent may not change. So I think we have to do amongst ourselves as a community. I think one of the things that we have to do around parent education is, is simply not just how those conversations are held or, or why we're having those conversations and whatnot, but we have to make parents aware of what this looks like from their child's perspective. 

Lee MJ Elias [57:14 - 57:14]: Right. 

Matt Dumouchelle [57:14 - 58:07]: I don't think there is a single child that would be quote unquote proud that dad was pushing another dad in the crowd because at their U10 game, one kid hit another kid, but they actually just lost their balance. You know, like you see some of these just animal videos of brawls in the stands of, of 9, 10, 11 year old kids. And one thing that those, those video footages don't show as much. Which not to say wish they would but, but to see the whole impact of it is they don't show the ice very much. Like they don't show the kids that have to stop their game because mom and dad are in a fight in the crowd because somebody said their kid is sucks or somebody was yelling at their kid to hit another kid or. But like it's, it's, it's traumatizing. 

Lee MJ Elias [58:07 - 58:08]: Yeah. 

Matt Dumouchelle [58:08 - 58:13]: What the adults are doing to the game is, is what, you know, one of the biggest factors in, in what's. 

Lee MJ Elias [58:14 - 58:43]: Killed say this Matt. You know, it, it's traumatizing to the kids. And again you said put yourself in the kids perspective. It's scary when you see this as an adult. Adult. If you're 10 and it doesn't even have to be your parents, that's even worse. But you see adults fighting, it's, it's terrifying for the kids. Terrifying. They don't know what to do. Yeah, right. I've seen games turn because of things like this. Like there's a, a screaming fan of screaming parents. Kids are terrified and you're not helping them. You're not, there's no value in my opinion. You're not learning adversity through that. You're right. Traumatizing a kid. 

Matt Dumouchelle [58:43 - 59:55]: I, I think about that afterwards. And one thing that you guys have talked about a few times on, on a number of different episodes and do a great job talking about the car ride home. Right? What, what's that car ride home like? Like dad's got a little trickle of blood coming down. He's he's pushing. We showed them. Son, grab your kids. We're out of here. Oh, yeah. Do Michelle's. We're. We're number one. Yeah. If you're not first, you're last. Like, what are you teaching that. That kid? So it's not necessarily. And again, it's a very fine line. And don't take this as. As associations have to get involved in parenting because, you know, I would take offense to somebody I don't know telling me how I should take care of my kid. But there is. There is a. We go back to the word community. There's an onus on organizations and on coaches, like it or not, that we're involved as much in some cases as parents in that child's development as. As a human being that. That we have to honor and take care of. We've got to take such gentle care of what that looks like when they're in our care and do our best owed to the community to share that with as many people as we can. 

Mike Bonelli [59:55 - 59:55]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [59:55 - 1:00:54]: It's a vehicle for their growth very much. One last question I wanted to ask you, so I want to let the audience know before we get to the very end here, you have to check out Hockey Factories. There's two volumes, two books you can get on the coaches site. Look around. These are really must reads if you're interested in this topic. One of the ones in. In volume two that really stood out to me was actually Dallas. And we're not talking like, Dallas, Yugoslavia. This is Dallas in Texas. It's not a. It's not a different name. I really enjoyed reading that one because it's not a city you traditionally think of when you think of a great hockey factory. The other thing about that, that section was that hockey with the star's name, it's the Dallas Stars youth organization had really failed a few times with that name. You're right about that. But this one took on, and I think it's because of several aspects that they were willing to teach themselves and apply. So I guess we'll say this is a little bit of a tease, right, for the article, Matt, but can you just dive into Dallas again? And you know why that one stood out to you? 

Matt Dumouchelle [1:00:55 - 1:03:14]: It absolutely did. Of the ones that I've done, like, again, every one of them has a certain place in my heart. They're all my babies, so to speak. Some of them just speak to me more, and Dallas is absolutely one of them. Eric Silverman's done an unbelievable job down there, and I've been able to actually connect with. With him. They've come to Michigan a couple of times to meet with him, one of their players as well that I and father that I've become buddies with and connect with them as well. So, you know, it's just really good people from, from start to finish there. But yeah, it was very much in Dallas and we joked about it earlier, you know, my kid's not playing very much, so I'm going to go start my own AAA team. And there was seven or eight AAA teams in a city that's not very hockey focused. And, and it was, you know, it was not. It was not good hockey. It was not good experience. But with, with Eric and his group, when they came in, they were able to get the Dallas Stars on board with using the name, which obviously is. Is a huge part of that and comes with a certain amount of pressure that, you know, if you're putting an NHL team's name under your youth program, like it's. It's going to have to be top notch. But that was done again, just, just strictly through. The one thing that I took away from them is the, the regular evaluation that they do of themselves. Yeah, they're constantly trying to get better at the way that they explain drills or the language that they use or how they're developing players. And they're looking back to see like, here's two or three years. Where are these kids at now? What are they good at? What are they not so good at? How are we going to fix that back at the beginning and adjust to kind of make those alterations? I think that was one of the key takeaways I had from there. That again, any organization can do when you put the time and effort into it is the constant evaluation of yourself. Being perfectly honest with our kids can fly, these kids can skate like the wind. But man, we can't complete a pass to save our lives. How do we go back and reintroduce that at the younger ages to correct that or autocorrect that all the way through? It's just being honest with yourself within your organization. I think Dallas has done a tremendous job of that. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:03:14 - 1:03:32]: I love that. And what I've loved about this episode is how much proven and tested and vital information we've shared of what's working right. Again, I think, I think there's times, people, that's a good idea. These aren't ideas. These are being implemented. 

Matt Dumouchelle [1:03:32 - 1:03:33]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:03:33 - 1:03:41]: Some of the top hockey organizations around the world is a very powerful episode. I do want to throw it to Mike and Chrissy I hog the mic a lot today. 

Christie Casciano [1:03:41 - 1:04:11]: Oh, no, no. I mean, you've done some really important research and we appreciate you sharing that with our listeners. And a lot of great takeaways for parents, especially as they kind of close it out in the season. Time to evaluate, take a careful look at what really matters, the importance of development with your kids. So hopefully they'll absorb some of that and the families will look forward to the next season with some with a new perspective. 

Matt Dumouchelle [1:04:12 - 1:05:18]: I hope so. Lee, you kind of said it there too. Before I let Mike speak, one of the things that. One of the big quotes that I've pulled from all of these articles is Roger Roman, who's the first team head coach at Frolanda, he says we're, we're always trying to be number one at everything that's free. That's. That line has stuck with me forever because this is, you know, we talk about, you know, in Windsor or smaller communities or whatever. Like this is the top program in, in one of the top hockey countries in the world that's trying to just do things for free as much as they can. Like that's, that's stuff that can be done anywhere. And I think the takeaway from, from Hockey Factories that I've tried to pull from these articles and I hope it translates is, you know, what they're doing and what their secret sauce, so to speak, is the humility of these programs that they're willing to open their doors to a complete stranger and dive into how they develop and what they do. And the takeaway from that is that so much of what they're doing can be done anywhere as long as that commitment is there. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:05:18 - 1:05:22]: I love that. Mike, I know you're a big fan of these, these articles, these series. 

Mike Bonelli [1:05:23 - 1:06:16]: Yeah. And Matt just took, I mean he took my question, so I'm very upset. But it's absolutely right. Like they, you don't. It's not about the technology they're using. It's not. Although. And all these programs have great infrastructure, they got great facilities, they've got great resources, but none of it is. Would stop them from being where they're at now now and, and, and gaining where they're at. So it's not. It's great to have all the add ons. It's great to be able to do all these other things they're doing. But the fact is, you know that I think overall, especially from like the first series to the second series, they're overriding theme is that just be a really good person and then you're gonna produce really good people and all that talent's gonna happen and all that, all those pieces are going to fall into place. And I. It's just a, it's just such an easy thing to do and obviously it's very, very difficult to implement because if it wasn't, you'd have, you know, you'd be on series 365. 

Matt Dumouchelle [1:06:16 - 1:06:17]: Right. Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:06:19 - 1:06:50]: It's all about the community. And I'll say we love our community with, with our Kids Play Hockey and all of our subsequent shows. But Matt, this, as predicted, was a fantastic episode. I really do think we're going to bring you back for a part two in the future where we can deeper dive into some of these, these hockey factories. But for those of you listening, I said a few moments ago, find this man's writing. It is a good read. If you're really interested in this stuff, I should say that find it. It's on the coaches site. I don't know if there's other places they can, they can find an ebook on this, but it's, it's great. 

Matt Dumouchelle [1:06:51 - 1:08:15]: Yeah, the coaches site would be to where to go. You can Google the ebook as well and just download it from, from the site too. You can find me on, on LinkedIn and Twitter as well if you have individual questions and things like that. Like this is again, an opportunity to have a conversation like this with you guys is awesome. I mentioned this kind of in the opening before we started recording. I've never played an organized game of hockey in my life. I was more of a baseball kid. And like I said, I still can't skate very well, but the opportunity that I been been given to look at these programs and do, you know, Zoom calls with, with Peter Forsberg and Jari Curry and you know, the, the minister that is the, the head minister at Shattuck Saint Mary's and just all the people that I would have had a chance to connect with through this that I would have never run into in, in real life or had any, any reason to really connect. Connect with was. It's one of the great blessings that I've. I've been able to be a part of in, in my life. So if there's, there's anything I can do to help with your programs or, or kind of bring some, some light in. Selfish of me to, to keep all this information to myself and all that. I, you know, it's, it's, it's. It's a blessing. So I appreciate you guys having me on. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:08:15 - 1:08:26]: We appreciate having you and I'll say it again. I love that message of we're here to share. Right. We're here to make it a better hockey community. You've done it globally. I guess we have, too, from the stats that we keep, of course. 

Matt Dumouchelle [1:08:26 - 1:08:27]: Yeah, yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:08:27 - 1:08:31]: But, but this has been a fantastic episode. Matt, thanks so much for joining us. 

Matt Dumouchelle [1:08:31 - 1:08:32]: No, thanks again. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:08:32 - 1:09:11]: All right, that's going to do it for this edition of our Kids Play Hockey for Christie Casciano Burns for Bike Minnelli and Mike Bonelli, both of them and Matt Dumichell. I'm Le Elias. We'll see you on the next episode. Everybody, have a great day. We hope you enjoyed this edition of our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now. If you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kids playhockey.com also make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey stops@when hockeystops.com It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of our Kids Play Hockey and we'll see you on the next episode.