Our Girls Play Hockey - Breaking The Mental Health Stigma with Kendra Fisher

In this episode of Our Girls Play Hockey, goaltender-turned-advocate Kendra Fisher shares her journey from making Team Canada to battling severe anxiety and panic disorder. She reveals how hockey became both her escape and her lifeline, leading her to champion mental fitness in sports.

Hockey players are told to be tough, but what happens when the battle is internal? Kendra discusses the pressures of elite competition, the impact of social media on young athletes, and the critical role of parents, coaches, and teammates in fostering mental well-being.

Whether you’re a player struggling with pressure, a parent supporting your child, or a coach looking to build a healthier team culture, this episode delivers must-hear insights.

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Key Takeaways:

🧠 Mental Health Impacts Performance: Just like strength and conditioning, mental fitness is key to success.

🏒 Hockey Saved Her Life: Kendra found stability in the game despite her struggles.

📱 Social Media & Self-Worth: Learn strategies to manage online pressures.

🤝 The Power of Support Systems: No player succeeds alone—team culture matters.

📢 Coaches & Parents Must Lead the Way: Mental fitness should be treated like physical fitness.

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Practical Tips for Parents, Coaches, and Players:

👨‍👩‍👧 Parents: Normalize mental health conversations with your kids.

📢 Coaches: Build team culture around emotional well-being, not just skills.

🛑 Players: Asking for help isn’t weakness—it’s strength.

Mental health is part of the game. Let’s change the narrative together. 🎧 Listen now!

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#OurGirlsPlayHockey #MentalHealthInSports #HockeyMindset #Resilience

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Chapters

• 4:36 Kendra Fisher's Mental Health Struggles
• 7:47 Transition from Team Canada
• 11:37 Mental Health Management
• 15:41 Sleep And Mental Health
• 17:31 Social Media's Impact On Youth
• 20:57 Managing Control and Mental Health
• 38:10 Mental Health Secrecy
• 43:38 Mental Health Support Systems
• 51:00 Mental Health and Coaching Responsibilities

Transcript

Lee MJ Elias [0:07 - 1:09]: Hello hockey friends and families around the world. And welcome back to another episode of our Girls Play Hockey. I'm Lee Elias and I'm joined by Sherry Hudspeth and Mike Bonelli. You know, our show often explores how hockey is more than just a game. It's a vehicle for building character, resilience and community. Today, we're excited to welcome someone who embodies these values and has dedicated her life to using her experiences to uplift and inspire others. Kendra Fisher is a trailblazer in hockey and a champion for mental health awareness. As a goaltender, she has represented Canada on the ice and on the wheels where she is a three time world in line champion. She has also made her mark in the Canadian Women's Hockey League playing with teams like the Vaughan Flames and Toronto Furies. But Kendra's story goes beyond the game. When faced with a severe mental health challenge during her quest to join the Canadian Olympic team, Kendra chose a path of courage, advocacy and impact. She's now the CEO of Mentally Fit, the host of Speakeasy, and a sought after professional speaker, sharing her journey to help others find strength and support in their own battles. We are honored to have her here today. Kendra, welcome to our Girls Play Hockey. 

Kendra Fisher [1:09 - 1:12]: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's great to see you guys. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:12 - 1:33]: It's great to see you too. And again, we're really excited for this episode. This is a topic that we're very passionate about as our audience knows and I love that we also have an ice and an inline goalie today. Got to give inline some love. It doesn't get enough love out there. But can you tell us about your hockey origin story? How did it led you on a path to mental fitness and health advocacy and maybe what goaltending means to you as well? 

Kendra Fisher [1:34 - 5:22]: Yeah, I mean, I started young and I remember because this has been quoted a billion times before. It was one of those stellar moments that I love to recall from my childhood when I was four, watching my brother play hockey. And I think the words that were said were, when I grow up to be a boy, I want to play hockey too. Because at that point it didn't occur to me that there was another option. And gratefully, very soon after I figured out that I was allowed to play as well. So I got into hockey young. I got into goaltending equally as young. I found out that I got to stay on the ice the whole game and I got to be the star because at that age when you lay down on the ice, nobody could raise the puck yet, so I was a hero who got to be on the ice the whole time. So I stuck with it and very gratefully felt found myself in a place where hockey took me to some pretty incredible places in life and follow that journey through men's hockey growing up because there wasn't any women's hockey in the area. I was played right through till midget AAA in the men's world and made the transition over to women's hockey when I started to recognize the potential for things like Team Canada and, you know, dreams that the little girl in me just. That wasn't even a thing. And now it was just this. Like, this is everything I wanted in my life. And I was very fortunate and privileged that that was. It was a possibility for me. And right around those later teen years, I started to have some struggles that I didn't understand and. And went undiagnosed for a bit and didn't really know how to get through it. At the time, hockey was the only thing I could keep doing. And unfortunately, in 99, I was out flying out to the Team Canada camp out in Calgary, and I. I got there and at the time, it was just. I was a shell of myself. I couldn't. I couldn't get through my days anymore. And I didn't know why. Nobody, you know, every doctor I'd been to told me how healthy I was, and that was great, but it didn't give me any answers. And unfortunately, I got out there and. And everything just got to be too much. I ended up leaving the. The camp the next day after telling the coaches that I, you know, something was wrong. I thought it was physical. I. I thought that there was something wrong with my heart. I thought there was something wrong my stomach. I thought I had something in my brain. And when I told them they were wonderful, the response I got back was his help. I need to know that you've already made the roster. I mean, you know, I know it's day two of camp, but we want you to play for Team Canada and certainly not a memory that I. I'm fond of, because the answer was no. At that point, it wasn't about the pressure of playing for Team Canada. It was that my life was completely unmanageable and I didn't know why. And so I flew back to Toronto. I spent some time waiting to figure out what was going on with me. And within the next month, a diagnosis of generalized anxiety, panic disorder, depression, agoraphobia, ocd. I'm an overachiever, so I thought we would just Try them all out. And started just trying to figure out how to, how to do life with that sentence. Because that's how it felt. It was a sentence. I couldn't leave my apartment for almost five years except to play hockey, quit school, couldn't work, couldn't. Couldn't do life. And was told I had to keep one commitment. I wasn't allowed to lay down and die. And it could be, whatever it was, it didn't matter. They didn't care if I wanted to take up knitting or if I wanted to play hockey. Just. You will keep a schedule of something so that you don't just give up. And you know, hockey saved my life because that was the only thing I could make myself do at that time. 

Lee MJ Elias [5:23 - 6:46]: It's an amazing story, my friend. I. First off, I appreciate you being great enough to share that story. Right. I think that it takes a lot of bravery to share a story like that. You know, the thing that you also said, I kind of want to point this out to the parents a little bit was that you made the team. I think there's a lot of parents out there that think, well, my kid, when they make it, it'll be like snap of the fingers. They'll understand all of the work will pay off. And. And that's rarely the case. If there is undiagnosed issues or if you're not willing to diagnose issues as an adult, it won't. It just doesn't matter. Right. It's not, it's not the achievement that is the goal. It is. You need to see someone. You need to be diagnosed. You need to understand what's happening to you. And I honestly cannot think of in the hockey world, let's be honest about it, the hockey world making Team Canada, I can't think of there being a higher achievements in hockey. And here you are making it saying, no, I am not. I am not okay. The bravery of that is insane. And I want to thank you for a sharing that. And obviously we're going to get into it. Sherry, Everything you've done since. But that story alone is. Is worth this episode. Right? Because. Because of what it means. But parents listening, you have to understand that it's not, it's not a snap of the fingers. I did it. I'm great now. It's just not how it works. 

Kendra Fisher [6:47 - 9:13]: I wish, I wish it's. It certainly was. It took a lot that transition away from what it does to you to walk away from Team Canada. I mean, that was my life. That was my. That was my identity. That was who I wanted to be. It was so easy to go through my days telling people that, you know, I'm this hockey player that's capable of playing at this level. That's just, you know, that's like a. That's a Persona that's not hard to show up as. And I just. I had gotten to a place where I couldn't even remember how to breathe. I got through that first day of camp, and it was horrific. It was hiding in bathrooms between ice times, it was breaking down in stairwells between off ice training. And by the time we got stuck in our dorms, I was like, there's no way I can hide this. Like, people are going to know something's wrong, and there's no opportunity for something to be wrong at that level. You can't be there as a shell of yourself and convince the world that you're one of the best goalies, that you're a good option. And being faced with not succeeding wasn't. Wasn't the issue. It was, you know, I can still play hockey. That's. That's the one thing I can still do. It's the rest of life that I'm not doing well. It's the rest of every other second of my day feels like I am dying, except for when I'm on the rink. And so, yeah, making that decision was a. It. It's taken a lot to work through, but at the same time, a thousand times over, I would never make a different decision because the journey this has taken me on far exceeds. And let me say this, let me, let me preface this. I get. There's no guarantee that had I stuck with it, that I become the be all and say all for Team Canada goaltenders. There are a lot of great goalies in this country. So I'm not jumping the gun and saying just because I made the roster that year that I would have been filling the steps of any of the great goalies that we've witnessed since. But that being said, it was in the running and taking myself out of that running, I wouldn't trade that for anything because the journey it's put me on and the path it's taken me on and where it's allowed me to get in my life, it's. I love the game of hockey and I will continue to interact with it in every way that it allows me to, but it wasn't worth my life. 

Lee MJ Elias [9:14 - 9:14]: Right? 

Sheri Hudspeth [9:15 - 9:35]: Hey, Kendra, thank you so much for being here, sharing this story, like, great story. I know a lot of young athletes, boys and Girls struggle with anxiety, whether it's like performance pressures like you said, school, home life, social media, peers. Can you talk about some strategies that you learn and implement to manage mental health without compromising athletic goals? 

Kendra Fisher [9:36 - 14:58]: Yeah, I mean, and I think that's the beauty of where we're getting to. I say getting to because we're still not there yet. There still exists that reality that is performance matters. And if you show up and you're not able to perform at the level, it's not, it's not to say you're going to be given the support you need. We are working towards that. I mean I see it at the top levels in the NHL, working with teams in the NHL now that that top down effect does have an effect. So teams are now starting to see that it's okay to support your athletes as a whole and their physical health and mental health are just part of the whole athlete. So that being said, there are a lot of preventative measures that we can put in place for mental health. You know, when it comes down to it, you're looking at like an acute 12% of the population that requires acute psychiatric intervention. And aside from that, you're dealing with a ton of mood disorders which is that anxiety, it is the depression and it's. And the longer you take to respond to that, the longer you take to incorporate the things in your days that will help you to cope with and manage day to day stress, anxiety, performance, mental illness as a disorder, the longer you're putting off being able to manage it in a way that you will be successful. So I think that there's a lot of, a lot of wonderful research out there and if I'm going with tangibles, and this just sounds like I'm going to be every kid's least favorite person, but I'm going to break it down really simply for you. Being physically active matters. Physical activity impacts mental health 100% of the time. Just because you're playing hockey, that doesn't count. Doing cardiovascular activity every day makes a difference. You don't have to go run a marathon. But even if it's as simple as making yourself go for a walk when you're feeling like there's no reason to do it, just be active. It does really good things biologically and physiologically to support the chemicals that support good mental health. Eat well. We have been hearing non stop medicine is food or food is medicine. And I'm not going to break it down that directly even. I'm just going to say you eat healthy and clean 80% of the time. I'm not unrealistic. Kids are going to eat McDonald's, parents are going to find ice cream. Like we're going to do these things. But eat well because in your food has all of the nutrients that your body needs in order to support your mental health, your brain health, your digestion, your digestive system produces the chemicals that support good mental health. Boring stuff, but it matters. Then you get into things like mindfulness. Right now we have a population that doesn't know how to slow down. We don't know how to stop pushing. We don't know how to accept stress into our life without being reactive. Learn those skills. Deep breathing, mindfulness meditation. Yoga is a great tool if you need help because the thought of sitting quietly in your brain is just overwhelming. Grab a coloring book. Grab something that tangibly allows you to calm down and sit with things that are not reactive. Learn the difference between feelings and facts. We feel big feelings and we immediately want to stop big feelings. Parents stop trying to stop big feelings. Avoidance is never the answer. Feel the big feelings, work through them. Allow yourself to experience what it feels like to get through a problem and don't do it for them. Your kid forgets their stick to go to hockey practice, don't get them a stick. Let them experience what it is to show up to hockey practice and have their coach be a little bit upset with them. And that's the lesson that's going to teach them that next time they might want to participate in remembering their stick. Learning hard lessons teach us to be resilient. And too often now we remove those things because none of us want to see kids upset. We don't want to see kids hurting. I'm a parent. I get it. It breaks my heart. But it's the right heart. And the right heart is to let your kids figure out how to problem solve. And when we remove all of these things from the equation, we stop giving kids the opportunity to participate in development. And already you mentioned social media. There are so many pieces of this that have already been removed from our kids lives and we can't change it. Social media doesn't give you the same interaction as eye to eye contact. It doesn't give you the same social connection which is biologically necessary. There are research studies that show connection prolongs life for a considerable amount of time. It is not connection for me to sit here and stare at a computer and look at you. It is a wonderful gift and it is a great tool, but it's not a replacement. So we need to Stay socially connected. We need to stay engaged in mindfulness meditation, learning how to do stress management, resiliency, eat well, get enough sleep. It's not cool to be able to run on four hours of sleep. Your brain only repairs when you're sleeping, only time. If you don't let your brain repair, your moods are forever affected and accumulatively, it will take its toll on you. And that's my TED talk on how to deal with anxiety. 

Lee MJ Elias [14:58 - 14:59]: That was fantastic. 

Mike Bonelli [15:02 - 16:11]: So just knowing the fact that, I mean basically everybody in on this call here and, and most of our parents that listen and the people we're really directing this to are families, right? And, and young ladies, men and families that sit in a room together and have these conversations every day. And we didn't grow up with social media. I can't even imagine, like I'm trying to think about what I would have been like if I was able to see all of this other competition around me because I really thought I was a good player. Like, I'm like I'm good, like I'm great. But if I looked at everybody else, I'm like, man, I'm not good. Like I'm not even close to this kid. So I'm wondering, you know, what you would tell, like how, how would you strategize knowing that we're, we're with mom and dad are right there next to me and I'm in the room, you know, some tips maybe about the use of social media and because I don't think it's all negative, by the way, I think there's a lot of pot. I mean there's a lot of things you can learn. There's so much you can learn, especially like from the goaltender position, things like that. It's like, my God, you could, you could be in front of every, the greatest goalie coaches in the world for free and get all that information. But what are some strategies that you found, you know, now in your new role? 

Kendra Fisher [16:11 - 16:12]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [16:12 - 16:31]: About managing social media with players and how they use it around their own mental health and around their own self worth and their own ability to say, I don't need to be like everyone else, yeah, I need to be me. But I got to use this in a positive way. 

Kendra Fisher [16:31 - 18:45]: Well, and I mean it's, it's tough, right, because one of the things that we're looking at here is as players, but we have to remember that players are people. So when you look at social media, it's the impact on the person, not just on the player. And there are so many facets of this that become complex. My number one suggestion, my number 100% every single time, is involvement, parent involvement. Your kids are not of a developmental age where they should have access to 24,7 content from every single person who is an armchair warrior and expert on life. Including myself. Right? Including myself. I can get out there on a platform and I can preach mental health and I could tell you everything I know. But if a parent isn't there on the other end to have a communication with somebody about understanding the content and understanding what they've just been exposed to, then there's a gap. And that gap detaches us from reality. And that reality is information and inundation, like. Like yourself. I mean, I didn't grow up with social media. I'm of that unique age where I've kind of hit all of the technology. Like, I think I went from like, cassette tapes to where we are now. I went from like VHS to where we are now. So, I mean, yeah, so, I mean, I've experienced it all and I've had to grow with it and try to. And there was resistance. And then the pandemic hits. And how dare we argue that there's not a benefit to this after the pandemic, I mean, we would have lost so many more people. But at the end of the day, there's a lack of involvement, there's a lack of the ability to have hard, uncomfortable, awkward conversations with our children. We don't want to. We want to avoid discomfort as much as they do. We don't want to sit down and have the icky conversations about, like, okay, dude, like, yeah, that guy just spun around five times with a puck on his stick, scooted around. But he's also doing nothing but editing that video 15 different times to do that. Why are. Like, why? And what does it make you feel? You know, and we don't account for the human experience in that. We don't account for how it affects people. We just expect that we have developed biologically and mentally at the same capacity as technology. And that's not the case. 

Lee MJ Elias [18:45 - 18:46]: It's never true. 

Kendra Fisher [18:46 - 19:14]: Biologically, we have not changed that much. Our ability to tolerate, manage, and do anything useful with the level of information that we have at our. At our disposal. It's still nominal. So now we've got all of this added chaos, stress, information that we can't disseminate as. As people, like, primitively. We can't actually take it all in and do anything useful with it. But our children, even less so. So we need to Stay involved. 

Mike Bonelli [19:14 - 19:44]: I'm wondering when you're having those conversations. So, so if you were back, back in, when you were in camp, right? And there was social media at the time and there was somebody like, you know, actively on social media being like, okay, this Kendra, she's lost it. She ain't doing what she needs to do. She's not representing Canada in the way we want to represent. That's happening to kids every single day. I mean, I see it, I see it in 10 year olds, right, that parents have built their social media account and people are critiquing their ability online. 

Kendra Fisher [19:45 - 19:49]: Well, and I mean, first off, parents like, come on, do better. 

Mike Bonelli [19:49 - 19:57]: That's a whole other story. Yeah, my son's social media account that I develop for him and I manage. That's, that's. 

Kendra Fisher [19:57 - 22:21]: But you manage it. You're involved, right? Which means you get to disseminate the information as it gets through. You need to manage how it gets through. And if it gets through, you get to manage and interact with him on where that sits. You can't control 99% of the world. You can't. You can control how we react to it. You can control how we exist. That's what you have control over. And so kids go into these platforms and into these rooms with a sense of urgency to be able to have the same level of control over their environment as they do over their day to day lives. And that's something that we need to constantly reiterate is not the case. We need to teach them. Hey, I don't ever want to see you making a comment like that to somebody. We need to teach them. Dude, that must have hurt a lot to hear that, you know, like, how did that make you feel? And I'm really sorry you had to see that. And this is why we lead with kindness. This is why we lead with acceptance. There are life lessons all along, but when there's completely like, hands off, like, cool, my kid is occupied. I don't have to parent right now. That is so cool because he's watching all these people do great stuff. Well, in between every great thing, there's another line. And to your point, what would it have been like if social media had been there? I don't even like reading the press release that Kendra Fisher had to leave Team Canada camp for personal reasons because I know what that means. But that doesn't come with all of the other. It came with me having to come back and answer to the people who knew me as to what were those personal reasons. And then I had to decide the narrative behind what am I willing to share with others? And I went 10 years. I went 10 years. I went five years locked in my apartment with the only thing I was doing being playing hockey and going to my psychologist. And I went another five years absolutely immersed in recovery and trying to learn how to manage this and getting to a place where I could talk about it at that 10 year mark. The thing that I was most proud of after 10 years was that nobody knew my story. Nobody knew I was living with mental illness. They thought I had hurt my back. They thought that's where I disappeared to. I had every excuse and every justification. I was proud that people didn't know because mental illness made me feel pathetic. 

Lee MJ Elias [22:21 - 22:22]: Yeah. 

Kendra Fisher [22:22 - 22:44]: I couldn't be alone. I couldn't leave. I just went from making Team Canada to being stuck in my apartment for five years. I don't want to explain that to anybody, but nowadays you don't have a choice. So if parents are not involved in the tool that drives that lack of autonomy and that lack of choice, how could we possibly think our kids can survive that without us? 

Lee MJ Elias [22:44 - 23:16]: Kendra, you're bringing up a tremendous amount of points here. Number one is a question I get asked a lot. And kind of encompassing everything here with mental. Mental illness, mental health, social media. I get asked a lot, well, what am I supposed to do with social media? Like, what am I supposed to do? And it's a great question. And you're answering that question. Get involved. The opportunity. Now you say it's like, because it's not going anywhere. Like, that's the other thing, too, is like, I'm sure we. There's a lot of us that would wish. If it could go away, it would. It would be great. But that's not going to happen. 

Kendra Fisher [23:16 - 23:16]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [23:16 - 23:43]: All right. And. And the opportunity in screens, we'll say, social media is exactly what you said. Have a conversation. How do you think that made them feel? Do you realize, like, to my kids, do you realize this is a highlight reel all the time? You're not seeing mistakes. You're not even seeing the basic plays. If you want to talk about just the game that started the big highlight play, you're not seeing. Mike and I just did a whole episode about that. Just the first pass from a D. There's no highlight reel of great first passes from these. 

Kendra Fisher [23:44 - 23:48]: Come on, start further back. The great rebound control from the goalie that made it possible. 

Lee MJ Elias [23:48 - 23:50]: I like it. I like where you're at. 

Mike Bonelli [23:50 - 24:30]: The puck hits the goalie and they get. They get credit for a Save. But I think, but that's, that's. But this is like, we talked about this a lot and I think the respect that a parent has to have for their kid too. I, I can't post a picture of my son on Facebook without it being approved because he'll freak out about his hair being in the air or his smile not being. And, and I think about it as, I don't know, you're always taking pictures and you're always like, you're literally on the stage all the time now. So knowing that you're not like that, that, that a 13 year old or a 12 year old and a 9 year old, they have to have some control over what you're posting too, and how you're presenting them. 

Lee MJ Elias [24:30 - 24:30]: Well, how about this? 

Mike Bonelli [24:30 - 24:32]: It's not about you, who they are. 

Lee MJ Elias [24:32 - 24:38]: How about that? It's not about the parent, it's about your kid. Right. So go ahead. Sherry. Sorry, I'm just like, it's not even about you. Mom and dad. 

Sheri Hudspeth [24:38 - 24:59]: Yeah, there's like a weird phenomenon right now with parents. I've seen it like a lot. Like parents making Bobby Smith 2015. They're making them, they're making them an Instagram page that they don't even know about. So these kids, one day, like in five years, they have a digital footprint of something their parents put up that they didn't consent to, they don't know about. And it's not gonna ever go away. 

Kendra Fisher [24:59 - 25:00]: So. 

Sheri Hudspeth [25:00 - 25:19]: And, and some of it's like, yeah, posting highlight reels, posting photos, pool parties. Like people posting kids in pool parties. Like, there's a lot with social media that's wrong and I think we need to, you know, do. Maybe it's a USA Hockey thing, but educating parents on social media and what's appropriate to post, what's not. Because these kids don't even know they have accounts. 

Lee MJ Elias [25:19 - 26:00]: Sherry, here's one for you. I look, I would say I'm very visible on the Internet to my kids. Right? I know that because they've, they've seen things with me I don't even. First off, I don't post a lot of them. I mean, every once in a while I will, but I rarely post pictures. And you know what's funny? They don't ask. They're not running up to me going, dad, can you post this picture or this video? They don't even ask. And they don't ask because it's just not top of mind to them because we haven't prioritized that in our house as being Important. And again, I'm just. They see me all the time, so it could be easy for them to say, oh, dad, you do this. They don't even care. You know, it's so, you know, a conversation we do have. You know, Kendra, to your point, every once in a while they'll say, hey, why don't you heart that? 

Kendra Fisher [26:00 - 26:01]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [26:01 - 27:04]: And I always think that's a very intriguing thing for a kid to say because that's their value system on whether it was good or not. And we have a conversation about what is liking it mean? And I. I tell them I don't. I don't really watch this stuff to like it. Right? I watch it for to be uplifted or to learn. And I say, this is not real life. And again, look, there's benefits to it, right? Like, it's not all or nothing. We. We always make a mistake. You talked about our ability to perceive technology. We always make it an all or nothing thing, and it's not. It's an evolution, and we have to evolve with it. And if you look back at human history, we never know how to use technology properly when it's invented, or even for decades or hundreds of years after it's invented. Right. You know, we're limited in that way, but there are opportunities to have really great conversations with your kids. And, And I want to reiterate what you said, Kendra. It's not a babysitter. You can't. You cannot leave them, letting them scroll. And look, I know parents of teenagers, you're rolling your eyes at me, saying, what am I supposed to do? And yeah, I. I do get that to a point. All right? 

Kendra Fisher [27:04 - 27:04]: But. 

Lee MJ Elias [27:04 - 27:06]: But that's not what it's for. 

Kendra Fisher [27:06 - 27:07]: All right? 

Lee MJ Elias [27:07 - 27:20]: And. And when I was growing up, you guys all remember, it was don't leave your kid in front of the TV. The TV's not a baby. It was the same conversation. You know, you don't do that. It's not what it is. We all need a minute from time to time. I'm not negating that. 

Kendra Fisher [27:20 - 30:39]: Even greater to that, though. And yes, but this is my point. My point is that's why you stay involved. It's not you set ground rules and then you let them go. It's you set ground rules, but then you continuously stay involved in a way that you're making sure those ground rules are being followed. And to your point, yeah, you can roll your eyes all you want, but those same parents. What I ask you is, would you take your child, insert age, whatever it is, walk them into A room full of a million strangers, put them in the middle of that room and walk out, right? Because that's what you're doing. Essentially you are giving them access to those millions of people's information, their approaches, their belief systems, their values. And you are assuming that none of it is being aimed at your child improperly and you never find out until it happens and then it's too late. But further to what you just said and something that I want to draw on and one of the reasons why it's so important we stay involved and again, this makes me not very popular with some people and I'm fine with that. You just mentioned your children saying like, and you, you, you equated that to their value system and it is the value system of gratification. And that all comes into dopamine. Dopamine receptors are extremely receptive to what we perceive as attention. And that's why we seek dopamine. We seek dopamine. It is an addiction. It is, it is equated to drugs. It is the same as a drug. It is the exact same release as a drug. So much so that when my 3 year old needed his cavity filled because he had never watched TV or seen a screen before, they didn't have to medicate him. They put the TV on. And because he had never been exposed to the tv, the response his physical body had to being able to watch TV for the first time was enough for them to do a cavity without medicating my kid. But beyond that, and, and this is, I, I, I'll share right now. I don't know how your show does it. I know when people listen to me talk, they expect it. So bit of a content warning that this comes with, with loss and suicide and, and just some information around it. But the number of times that I've spoken with people who have considered or been at a place in their, their life that they felt as though suicide was an option. The number of times that I have heard from kids that the reason they didn't do it was because they put it up on social media that they were going to end their lives. They put it up on social media that they were going to say goodbye. And that was the post that got the most likes and the response that they got internally because that post did better than any other post that they've ever put up was wow. So if I tie into this, I get more, I get more from wanting to not be here anymore to sharing with the world this tragic feeling inside of me. I get more gratification and more attention from that than anything else in my life. And then this just opens a whole other avenue of disordered behavior, disordered coping. And oftentimes, parents have no idea. 

Lee MJ Elias [30:39 - 30:39]: Right? 

Kendra Fisher [30:39 - 31:16]: Parents have no idea that their kids are out there posting that they feel like they want to end their lives. Imagine finding that after the fact. Stay involved. Just stay involved. Yeah. It might feel like a breach of privacy to your child. Your child is still your child. You are still parenting. And unless they aren't living under your roof anymore, your number one priority is not to be their friend. It is to help them understand that this world comes in phases and we develop in phases. And you are not expected to survive on your own in real life. So I don't expect you to survive alone on a social platform either. 

Lee MJ Elias [31:16 - 32:07]: No. Kendra, I have to add in here since, since we're on the topic, just good information for everybody to know. And this is backed by stats and facts. If anyone ever says to you something about suicide, you should take that extremely serious. And never, never. Oh, they're just feeling emotional if they say that word. You need to engage, take action. All right. The other half of this is, I believe it's in the 95%, if not more people that are considering suicide will tell you that they are considering suicide prior to trying to, to take an act to do that. So it's an alarm. And, and you should be very direct with them when they bring it up. Right. I think a lot of people are like, just the question, are you thinking about hurting yourself? Is a different question. 

Kendra Fisher [32:07 - 32:08]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [32:08 - 32:12]: And are you considering suicide? And it's very hard to ask that question. 

Kendra Fisher [32:12 - 32:12]: Absolutely. 

Lee MJ Elias [32:12 - 32:36]: But I will always tell everybody, you know, I've, I've been blessed. I've got to take a course about this. I'm so thankful for that every single day. But while it's hard to ask that question, the alternative is always harder. And again, a good friend, if you ask that to a friend and you're mistaken and they're mad at you, so be it. You might, you might want to rethink that friendship because. Because you're doing it from the right place. 

Kendra Fisher [32:36 - 32:36]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [32:36 - 32:52]: But again, if you hear someone speaking about that, always take it seriously. And remember that people considering suicide often ask for help or reach out prior to doing it. So, like a little PSA there again, you're. I just wanted to share that. I thought that was important to say. 

Kendra Fisher [32:53 - 33:16]: And for kids especially, make sure that you involve an adult. There's, there's. I'm somebody who's worked in the Mental health space now for in excess of 14 years. And I, I assure you that there are still many instances where I am not the answer. I don't have the solution for you. I don't have the answer for you. But I will certainly make sure you're not alone. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:16 - 33:16]: Right. 

Kendra Fisher [33:16 - 33:21]: And I will certainly make sure that I involve somebody who can get involved physically in real time. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:21 - 33:22]: It's a great point. 

Kendra Fisher [33:22 - 33:31]: And if you want to hate me for that, I will accept that every single time. Because to me, I would just, you know, people don't hurt themselves when they're not alone. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:31 - 34:36]: And when, and you said it, you don't have to be the solution. No happening. You can direct them somewhere. There are hotlines, there are places you can go just to everyone listening if, if you're ever in that situation. I just don't ignore it. It's not something you could ignore. Yeah, Kendra, I do want to get back to you. You know, I write notes throughout every episode. Something interesting about your, your mental, mental illness, mental health journey is when you talked about Team Canada, you used the words hide this right. At the time. Okay. You just talked about how it, you know, it was a 10 year journey to, to express it. Obviously, mental health is in a different place now than it has been ever. Right. We'll get into that more later. But I'd love your thoughts on knowing what you know and keeping in mind what I just said. What would you might have said to yourself differently if you could, you know, if you could talk to your younger self, what do you wish would have been done differently at that time? Yeah, I think also acknowledging that your mental illness wasn't something that could just be solved by somebody, but it probably could have been approached differently by a lot of people. 

Kendra Fisher [34:36 - 38:55]: Yeah. And I mean, I can't look back at this point and say what should have been done differently because also I'm applying what I know now and I can't do that because I know too much now in terms of actual education and information, but also how we approach it differently now in comparison to how we did back then. And I mean, it's tough. Right. And parents don't like to hear this because lots of people want to hear that. There's this extenuating circumstance that makes it so obvious that that is the reason why this is my story. I have an incredible family. I was very fortunate and blessed and privileged to be supported in my hockey and what I wanted to do in education. I had friends, I had, you know, the means to live a very privileged life. And So I. There's nothing in my story that screams like, of course this. This girl was struggling, right? And, yeah, I hit it. I hit it a lot because of how I felt about it. And, you know, I can blame the way that the stigma is. I can blame all of those things. But ultimately, at the end of the day, I didn't accept it. I was diagnosed, and I, for five years, was like, these guys are just wrong. Like, this is a physical illness. There's. I still. For five years, every medical test you could put me through, like, I had. I was convinced I had a brain tumor, I had a heart problem. I had, you name it. It was still so physical. And every physiological symptom of anxiety shows up. It's not just in your head. Like, there are actual markers that show up because it affects you so physically, which makes it really hard for somebody with no education to understand that it's coming from a. A behavioral or a mental component. And for me, I got through that journey, and I got through it with everything very close to my chest. Like, I went through this with a handful of people, and sadly and unfortunately, it actually took. I mean, I imagine many are familiar with the wonderful work that they do through do it for Darren, but it took. I happened to be sitting in the Ontario Women's Hockey Association's head office when the. The directors of the league came back with a memorial for Darren Richardson. They had just come back from her funeral in Ottawa. Luke Richardson's daughter, who. Their family, you know, blessed the world by sharing in honesty what happened with Darren. And unfortunately, she did die by suicide at 14 years of age. And I remember sitting there with this piece of paper in my hand and looking at it and thinking, I'm part of the problem. I'm part of this. I'm part of the secret. I'm part of the problem. Because here I am, somebody at that point who had learned how to live with mental illness in a way that I could live in, quote, unquote, recovery. And I was ashamed. I was embarrassed to admit it. And I was part of the reason that kids like Darren didn't know that there was a different way. They didn't know that you could have a different life with this, a different experience. I was part of that secrecy. And in that moment, for me, that was what motivated me. What motivated me was, you know, what I know how incredibly helpless and powerless I felt sitting there 10 years before that day, thinking, there's no way in hell I'm gonna live tomorrow. There's like, I'm not gonna be here. I can't do this. I called my parents, and they answered the phone, my mom answered. And the only words that came out of my mouth were, I'm not gonna be here tomorrow. And at that point, I don't even know so much that it was that I wanted to be dead. It was. I couldn't imagine surviving. I could not physically get my head wrapped around the thought that I was going to wake up the next day, because that's how desperate it felt. And 10 years of that desperation living in me and fighting for my life in secrecy, like, it just. And then getting to that point of recognizing God, that secret is killing people. That secret is hurting so many people. Because this isn't a unique story. There are so many people struggling. You know, the stats when I started sharing this. 1 in 6. The stats now 1 in 2. 1 in 2 people. Leading cause of death amongst athletes in. 

Sheri Hudspeth [38:55 - 39:08]: The US Kendra, can you share some? You know, you've been through all. Can you share some, like, advice for our girls? Listening of some of the strategies and tips that they can apply to their everyday life? Like to help them on and off the ice with their anxiety. 

Kendra Fisher [39:09 - 39:34]: Absolutely. Anxiety. First off, you know, anxiety comes from a place of fear. And our initial instinct with fear is avoidance. We want to avoid the things that scare us. For me, the way it manifested, I didn't. I didn't leave my apartment for five years because every time I went to leave my apartment, I'd have a panic attack. The thing that we learn about fear is the more we give it power and control, the more power and control it takes over our lives. 

Mike Bonelli [39:34 - 39:35]: Right? 

Kendra Fisher [39:35 - 42:08]: So one, create a support system, whatever that looks like for you. And I recognize that it's different for everybody. God willing, your parents are a great source of support for you. If they're not, I acknowledge that's not real for everybody. Find a friend, find a trusted adult. Find somebody at school. Find somebody within the sports system. Like I've said a million times, we are so blessed. The infrastructure of organized sport comes with adults and people in a socially connected way. And in my mind, every single person coaching should be absolutely taking the safe talk or the assist or the, you know, if you're in Canada, the Mental Health Commission of Canada, like, you should be getting training on how to deal with people as a whole, not just how to take a shot and, you know, reach out to a coach, reach out to somebody. Create a support system so that you are not on this journey alone. And it can be as simple as somebody who's Willing to do the research with you and willing to show up with you. My greatest advice is always connection and community. We are stronger in connection and community. So when you share that with somebody, all of a sudden all of the things that can help you, getting physically active, eating well, engaging in something, do it with somebody. Don't do it alone. Don't put it on yourself to learn how to do all these things and to take on all these requirements by yourself. Because it's really, really easy when you are feeling anxious or when you are feeling depressed to bypass it. It's really easy to be like, nope, not today. Nope. Can't today get somebody who will take baby steps with you without shame. You want to try to go for a walk today? And we only make it 10ft out that door. Hell, we made it 10ft out that door and we are going to celebrate those ten feet and tomorrow we're going to try to get ten and a half. Journaling huge. Keep track of those and celebrate them. Accomplishments, every one of them matter. Keep it something you can manage. Make yourself a to do list each day on a really bad day, have a really bad day to do list. And if all you manage to do is get up, make your bed, have a shower and eat three meals, awesome. If that's what you can manage on a hard day, you account for it, you do it, you check it off and acknowledge it and you journal about the fact that you did it. Because those wins, you build on those wins. Every step is a baby step, like, and they're all, you can only take one step at a time in life. 

Lee MJ Elias [42:08 - 42:15]: Kendra, I want to pull a thread on this. First off, fantastic advice. Not just for girls, for everybody. Right? 

Kendra Fisher [42:15 - 42:16]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [42:17 - 42:38]: I imagine there were times we have that advice in our head. These are the things I can do. And you are just so frozen that you can't. You just. Your body or mind is saying, I can't do it. I can't. What is the phrase? Affirmation. The mindset for someone in that specific spot that is frozen right now. 

Kendra Fisher [42:38 - 43:53]: This is why you involve others, right? When you are not well, when you are disordered, you are not connected to rational thought. And this is the quote I came to with realization is we don't teach people to swim when they're drowning. That's just a really horrible time to teach somebody to swim. They're not going to learn, they're not going to be successful, they're not going to figure it out and it's not going to end well. We teach people to swim before we throw them in the water. So when you come across somebody who's already struggling, when somebody is already in crisis, having other people available in your support system to keep you accountable is key. Because on days that you can't connect to rational thought, which is what anxiety prevents, you think physiologically what happens when you're anxious. It's a fight or flight response, your nervous system prevents you from being able to have rational thought. When you have a bear chasing you, you are not calmly thinking to yourself about how you are going to navigate problem solving in this moment. You're looking for a bloody tree, you're climbing it, and then you're going to try to figure out if that bear knows how to climb. 

Lee MJ Elias [43:53 - 44:28]: Well, I, I'm going to say this too, and I know Mike has a question about this. This also goes back to the loss of connection that we're experiencing right now as a society. And here's the thing. Everyone felt it during COVID I'm not sure that everyone wanted to acknowledge that. But whether you're an extrovert or introvert, everything shows biologically we need each other to survive. There's no, there's no information against that thought. And the, the dangers. And again, there's also benefits. But the dangers of social media is, as you said at the top of the episode, we are removing those interactions. 

Kendra Fisher [44:28 - 44:28]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [44:28 - 44:37]: So for somebody in the space we're talking about who's on social media, you might not, they might not have that support system built up. And that's why it's so important, parents, we all play a role. 

Kendra Fisher [44:38 - 44:38]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [44:38 - 44:42]: In doing this. Right. We all do play dates when they're babies. Right. Like that's. What's that for? 

Kendra Fisher [44:42 - 44:58]: Well, like. And if you, like, you follow my account. I. I let everybody keep me accountable. It's not comfortable. It's not great. I just had a really hard year of my life. I lost my father, I had surgery. I had a whole bunch of big things happen that tested all of my coping tools. 

Lee MJ Elias [44:58 - 44:58]: Right. 

Kendra Fisher [44:58 - 45:34]: Because of course, grief is huge and it cues all of these different things. And then you're not taking care of yourself properly. So if you're sustaining, susceptible to being anxious, you're opening the door and saying, come back, come on in. I missed you, my friend. And so for me, create as many tools as you can. And that's not to say everybody needs to be a mental health advocate. Do not get me wrong, this is not for everybody. And it is a different kind of choice to make in life. But if you go look at my Content, I'll be as honest as I can be, because for me to show everybody that I'm doing great 100% of the time. What a lie. 

Lee MJ Elias [45:34 - 45:35]: Yeah. 

Kendra Fisher [45:35 - 45:51]: And how incredibly damaging is that? And when I started this, that was my thought. My thought was, I got to show everybody that I'm in recovery and I've got this figured out. And then I started to realize how isolating and. And invalidating that must feel to somebody who's having a bad day. 

Mike Bonelli [45:51 - 45:51]: Right. 

Kendra Fisher [45:51 - 46:00]: Because when I have a bad day, it's not what you see. Do you think I want to get on and turn my phone around to myself and be, like, in tears? Hey, guys, today is brutal. 

Lee MJ Elias [46:01 - 46:01]: Right? 

Kendra Fisher [46:01 - 46:18]: But you know what happens? You then beat the disconnect of social media. You beat the disconnect because you then invite everybody to keep you accountable. And anybody who's genuinely connected to you then reaches out and it's like, girl, I saw your video today. You okay? 

Lee MJ Elias [46:18 - 46:18]: Yeah. 

Kendra Fisher [46:18 - 46:34]: Like, you. You doing okay there? And it's hard. It's that constant battle of. And then it's. Other people are like, well, Kenry, you can't post content like that. Nobody's gonna hire you to speak. You can't. You can't show people you're down. And to my. To that, my answer is, then don't hire me to speak. 

Lee MJ Elias [46:34 - 46:35]: I'm with you on that. 

Kendra Fisher [46:35 - 46:50]: Because what you're trying to present to people is not real. And not real is what gets people to a place of giving up what is real is build a damn army. Build a community. 

Lee MJ Elias [46:50 - 47:12]: Well, and the positivity, like, here's something people forget. And you just said it. Look, I. I just refuse to buy into the. The nightmare scenario. Everybody's evil and everybody's horrible. When you need help and you reach out, typically, people do show up. Right. And the thing is, like. Like, the human spirit, I would say, is it's pretty undefeated when you look at human history. Right? 

Kendra Fisher [47:12 - 47:12]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [47:12 - 47:42]: When you reach out, people show up. And we talked about this the other day, the stigma behind it. Sometimes the stigma is in our heads. I was talking with a friend yesterday about how something I've been working on for a long time is, you know, people would ask me, hey, are you okay? And I might not be okay that day, that week. And I'll go, yeah, yeah, I'm great. I'm great. I've stopped doing that. Like, no, I'm not. I'm not feeling great today, but I'm pushing through. Right? Like, I. There should be no stigma in saying that. Super Easier said than done. Totally acknowledging that. 

Kendra Fisher [47:42 - 47:42]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [47:42 - 47:51]: But it's something I work out of, you know, why did I say I was okay when I wasn't? What am I afraid of? Like, that stigma's gotta continue to be bent and broken. 

Kendra Fisher [47:51 - 48:08]: And that doesn't mean, like, that also doesn't mean, like, when you ask me, how are you doing that? My answer is going to be like, well, so today, let's talk. My anxiety is like a 7 out of 10. And when I got up and opened, like, there's a balance, but the balance is honesty. The balance is vulnerability. 

Lee MJ Elias [48:08 - 48:08]: Right? 

Kendra Fisher [48:08 - 49:07]: What is real is that if you show up imperfectly, you are doing far better than if, A, you choose not to show up because you are imperfect, or B, you show up and pretend that you are on cloud nine 100% of the time. Right. Because neither is beneficial. Show up, be a mess, take the power out of the fear. I get to get up on a stage on the worst days of my life and be like, guys, if anybody should have called in sick for work today, it was me. But guess what? Like, there's a thousand of you sitting here, and if I don't show up, this doesn't happen. So if I start crying, anybody in the front row who is a hugger, do me a favor, come give me a quick hug. Let's take a break and we're going to get through this together. It might be a little messy, but you guys are going to. We're going to do this together, right? And all of a sudden, when you change every single room you're into, we're going to do this together. Isolation doesn't exist because nobody gets left behind, Right? 

Lee MJ Elias [49:07 - 49:08]: Imagine what that could do for a. 

Kendra Fisher [49:08 - 49:29]: Hockey team, for everyone. I know, I'm just for coaches for the hockey team, for the parents, for the, the trainers, for the people who are watching, for the kids who are watching it on tv. You know, like, it's the infrastructure of hockey especially. It's so global, right? How do we not use this as a vehicle for change? 

Lee MJ Elias [49:29 - 49:56]: So true. Well, that's what. And that's why we're doing this show. Right? And we always say all the time, Kendra, yeah, obviously we're a hockey specific show. The most of the stuff we talk about is life. It's life lessons, right? It's hockey makes it easier. Like if you want a blessing in hockey, hockey is a great vehicle because you're going to experience these things a lot more and a lot faster than if you're not playing sport. Right? That's the Opportunity of hockey. Anyway, I've teased Mike having a question for about 10 minutes now. I want to make sure. 

Kendra Fisher [49:56 - 50:00]: I'm so sorry, Mike. I get so excited about it. 

Mike Bonelli [50:00 - 50:47]: You're answering them all. I mean, I think it's just. It gets me thinking about, like, all, like, you know, I think there's. I think we probably have way too many Larry Davids of the world, though, than. Than the. Than the mental health experts. Like, how are you feeling today? Well, I'm not feeling okay. That's good. And then walk away like, okay. I don't. I don't even want to know. I really didn't. I think. But I think that's really more of us as coaches. I think the. The majority of coaches coaching any youth sport. Hockey's a horrible example, I think, because, you know, on Friday night of the tournament, you hear the nine, one win, and then it's silence on social media. And, you know, on Facebook, they lost the tournament because there's no post on Sunday. Right? Like, or, you know, we joke around all the time. I go on a fishing trip, and if I'm posting pictures of the. Of the sunset, you know, I didn't catch anything. 

Kendra Fisher [50:47 - 50:47]: Catch anything. 

Mike Bonelli [50:47 - 50:51]: It's like. Like this guy had a horrible weekend. That's a beautiful. It was a beautiful weekend. 

Lee MJ Elias [50:51 - 50:52]: It was beautiful. 

Mike Bonelli [50:52 - 52:13]: But I think that's where I mean, I think the. So my question to you is the. The obligation, although we'd love it, to be on coaches, it's just not a reality in most places. Unless you're playing for, like, an organizational team. Like, you're on a team that you play for four years. Like a one. A coach that has a kid for six months. I don't think should be responsible for all of this. But we as parents, because we all are. I believe we are in a community when we join a team, what are some things a parent can do? It's so hard to tell another parent, right? Like, listen, I think your daughter or your son, you know, we should have a conversation because I know, you know, on Snapchat, they were talking about this or, hey, I heard in the locker room this, like, when social media first came around, I was coaching high school hockey, and the kids and I joined Facebook. The only reason I joined Facebook at the time was to see what the kids were doing. Like, I. I didn't even have any friends that were on Facebook. I just joined it because I. I would actually be the guy who said, I call up a parent, say, hey, I know you're out of town Friday night. But your son's having a party. You probably should make sure that you know this. And then I would get like, oh, Coach Pinelli, you know, telling us. I go, well. Well, I felt. I said, that's my job. My job is that you don't all die on a Friday night. That's my job. 

Kendra Fisher [52:13 - 52:14]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [52:14 - 52:42]: And I'm trying to help. So what can. What's some. What's some advice we can give to the parents to empower them on approaching these situations? Because sometimes as a parent, you put your head in the sand like, no, that's not my kid. My daughter, my son. They're great. Everything's hunky dory. And then the other parents looking at you like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that's not true. And, you know, what can we do to, you know, kind of help bridge that gap and. And truly build that community? 

Kendra Fisher [52:42 - 57:01]: So I'm gonna. I'm gonna back you up a little bit here, and I'm not gonna let you off the hook, Coach Benelli. So. And I say this with absolutely respect. I. I'm not saying this to be hard on you. I'm saying this in general. This is a general thing. But the first way that you started that question was removing the coach out of the equation, because it's not your responsibility. And you can't take the coach off the team and expect the team to function the same way. You can't take the coach out of the child's life who has signed up to play a hockey team that they are committed to. You can't take the coach out of the equation and still have a whole team. Now you're breaking down the team. So, first off, this is a team approach. This is a team approach in life. This is a team approach in the unit of hockey. Is another child your responsibility? Technically. And understanding the innuendos of. No parent wants to be told what to do. Fine. No, not yours. Not you. Did not change that diaper. However, you sign up for youth special sports. You sign up for sports in any capacity as a coach, you have accepted the responsibility of being a part of a child's life, period. No different for a teacher. A teacher likes to push back. Not my responsibility. I'm here to teach them. This can't be my problem. It's too big. You sign up as a teacher. You are taking on the role of being a part of a child's life and a part of their life that they are expected to look up to, they are expected to respond to and respect. You cannot decide which Part of that equation you don't want to participate in. If you don't want to deal with the issues that come with coaching humans, then you can't be in that role. So that's my first answer. My second answer is you also have to get rid of the assumption that the parent is ever going to be the solution. You don't know what's happening in that home. You don't know the role those parents play. And that's not yours to figure out. When that child is on your team, you don't have to be the answer. And this goes back to what I was saying. Nobody has to be the answer. You just have to be willing to show up as part of the team. Because at the end of the day, I'm here, I'm alive to share my story. Not because of one doctor, not because of my parents, not because of my friends, not because of my coaches. I'm here to share this story because enough people showed up alongside me and made it so that I didn't have to sit in a room that felt like I couldn't survive alone long enough for me to learn how to start showing up for myself. Ultimately, it goes back to an individual, but we got to give guidance. We've got to give support. And any child watching, any child listening to this, the last thing I ever want to hear a kid hear or watch is two adults deflecting whose responsibility this is. It is our responsibility as people, as humans, we show up for each other. And you don't show up as the answer. You show up as a participant. So what do you do then? For a parent, you suggest, hey, you know what? I've really noticed that so and so seems to be struggling a bit. Is there anything I should know? Because you know what a parent doesn't want to hear, just like a coach doesn't want to hear it, just like a kid doesn't want to hear it. I've noticed there's a problem. What are you doing about it? Our ability to be receptive, to grow, to find support is based solely on our ability to feel like that connection is real. So when you say to me, you know what? I think your kid's struggling, I think I have noticed that your son is, you know, when he shows up here, there's some things going on here. What can we do to support him? Not what are you doing? Because now you've got the parent understanding, they've got an ally, too. Because parents don't have the answers. Coaches don't have the answers. And a Lot of instances, doctors don't have the answers. Mental health is complex. The way we support behavioral change is by making it possible. The way we make it possible is to stack the odds in somebody's favor. 

Lee MJ Elias [57:02 - 57:48]: You know, the. The term it takes a village comes to mind when we're talking about raising our kids or helping each other. But it's true for all of us. You know, Kendra, you're making some tremendous points here. Is it's not ours or yours to solve. No community effort. Yeah, right. And I love the. The level of accountability that you also brought into this. You know, when we teach accountability to kids at a base level, we talk about the difference between saying it's your fault or. Or even it's my fault. When extreme accountability is, hey, we need to fix something together. That's the most accountable thing you can say. Yeah. How do you do? Kind of leads me into my final question, which is this. 

Mike Bonelli [57:48 - 57:50]: That's. 

Lee MJ Elias [57:50 - 57:50]: Sorry, Mike, go ahead. 

Mike Bonelli [57:50 - 57:52]: No, no, but I'm just wondering with that. 

Kendra Fisher [57:53 - 57:53]: Yep. 

Mike Bonelli [57:53 - 58:02]: Because of the way our structure is. I gotta. I don't. I only see your kid for an hour a week, Two hours a week. 

Kendra Fisher [58:02 - 58:03]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [58:03 - 58:06]: I switched teams seven times in seven years. 

Kendra Fisher [58:06 - 58:06]: Absolutely. 

Mike Bonelli [58:06 - 58:22]: So why is that responsibility? So is there. Is the parent? Are they doing up? Like, how did everybody. Did everybody know that you were struggling? I'm sure you're with these teams for hours and hours and hours and months and weeks. And, like, did anybody notice up until the time you noticed? 

Kendra Fisher [58:22 - 59:36]: So it's funny, because after the fact, when I started talking about this, a lot more people have come out of the woodworks, and it's been kind of cool, like, this process of, like, my grade seven teacher and, like, my, like, grade 11 coach and my coach from my team when I played. And. And it was like, you know, I kind of noticed something. Should I have said something? And here's my honest answer. And this is where some of your apprehension is. And that's. And again, like I said, I'm not being hard on you. I love having these discussions because from lived experience, my coaches were some of the greatest people in my lives. And whether or not they actively played a role, it doesn't matter. It's just what I know. Now, I can shed light on this because my answer is, if you came up to me as a teenager and said, hey, you look like you're struggling, I can assure you that it would have been a middle finger or some really choice words to be like, piss off, like, who are you? I'm fine. Mind your own business. Fine. But now you've created a conversation piece. And my response to that is, you know what? I might not have been receptive. I might not have let you help, but all of a sudden it would have been in my mind that somebody noticed that maybe something was off. And now that's in my mind. 

Lee MJ Elias [59:36 - 59:37]: Right, right. 

Mike Bonelli [59:37 - 59:44]: But I wonder if my comment is more directed to. Because that's not me, by the way. I, I'm, I'm all in my players. Like, I know. 

Kendra Fisher [59:44 - 59:45]: I don't doubt it. 

Mike Bonelli [59:45 - 1:00:07]: I'm just saying both of the coaches I work with would say, well, I don't know that player. Like, so if I'm a parent, is it better for me, like, they think about it. If you move your kid from program to program to program to program, how is anybody going to know who your kid is? And how is anybody ever going to identify? It's like if you move your kid to a different teacher every school every year. 

Kendra Fisher [1:00:07 - 1:00:07]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [1:00:07 - 1:00:15]: Nobody would ever have a dossier on the kid. They'd be like, by the time they figure it out, maybe there's an issue, they leave, and then somebody has to reset. 

Kendra Fisher [1:00:15 - 1:00:16]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [1:00:16 - 1:00:35]: And find out who that kid is again. So I guess my, my main point was if you're in a healthy organization with good coaches and positive parents and kids that you know now, like. Because I'm sure it's a lot easier for a teammate of yours that have seen you every year to get closer to you. 

Kendra Fisher [1:00:35 - 1:00:35]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [1:00:35 - 1:00:41]: It's like in the US Right. High school hockey is so cool because you're, you're with those players for the most part, for four years. 

Kendra Fisher [1:00:41 - 1:00:42]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [1:00:42 - 1:01:25]: So somebody is going, I hope. And I've seen this firsthand when by year three, people are actually very involved in your lives. And, and, but if I don't know that player because of our youth hockey structure now, there's no way I could get to know who that player is or red flags of looking for what that player. So by, I guess my, my comment is the parents listening. Like, yeah, the longer your, your son or daughter is in a, in a place of. With good people around them, forget about the skill level. Forget about, like, the talent and the tournaments and the AAA status. The more they're in a good place. And I think we talked about this on the show million times. Like, find a good person first to coach your kids. 

Kendra Fisher [1:01:25 - 1:01:26]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [1:01:26 - 1:01:27]: And then worry about the talent, like. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:01:27 - 1:01:29]: Then worry about you Search for the wrong thing. 

Kendra Fisher [1:01:29 - 1:01:29]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [1:01:29 - 1:01:37]: And I think that, like, have that as your base. It enables you now to get the expectation that we're all in this together. 

Kendra Fisher [1:01:37 - 1:03:53]: Yeah. And I think that there's also. There's absolutely a responsibility if you are, and I say responsibility loosely. If you have a kid who you've got on your team for one year, there's no responsibility for you to be able to diagnose. First off, there's no. There's no part of me that is like, hey, you coached this guy for. You coach this guy for five months, and why don't you know this about him? First off, like, that's. I'm not talking about that. That's not an expectation of any human, let alone coach. Right. If you are a parent and you're bringing your child who you know is struggling, have that conversation openly. Hey, Coach, just to give you a heads up, my. My kid sometimes deals with this. This is how it shows up, and this is a great way to. To be supportive. But for organizations, and this is, I think, to the point of what you're saying, the best for those organizations. As an organization, what can the organization do? What can a coach do who's only got kids for an hour a week? You can create a safe environment. You can coach mental health as well as physical health as well as hockey. And instead of calling it mental health and physical health and hockey, let's just call it hockey. Let's just call it. We're going to have hockey practice. And by the way, today, hockey practice looks like we're going to sit and we are going to have a conversation about mental health, and that's what this practice is going to look like. We're not going to run our pk. We're not going to work on our power play. Today. Today we're going to sit down and we're going to talk about how we're feeling. Today we're going to sit down and you're going to see adults in a room have a conversation about feelings. Right. And in seeing that, you're going to recognize that we put value on that no differently than we put value on where you are on the ice, on the pk. And we are going to teach parents that that is important to us and that that's what we are leaving open for their children. And when you create a safe space for somebody to say, I'm not okay, then you create an opportunity for that kid who is instead not listening to a coach saying, it's not my responsibility, and a parent saying, it's not my responsibility and a teacher saying, it's not my responsibility. Now, what you're creating is a completely different show, which is a kid sitting there going, wow, these adults think it's. It's important for us to talk about our feelings and what's bothering us too. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:03:53 - 1:03:56]: And they do watch and they do take that in and. 

Mike Bonelli [1:03:56 - 1:04:16]: Well, it's a huge selling point. I mean, if I'm in order, like, and by the way, don't have that conversation with the coach right before tryouts, have it after your kid. But if you're, if you're. This is like, to me, that's what sport is. And, and Lee. Right. We say it. I mean, it's. If that's not what you think sport is, then don't. Don't join that organization. Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:04:16 - 1:05:38]: Well, it's the expectation. It's the expectation of what is it that you want hockey to be for your kids? And so many people get lost in the false pretenses that create FOMO and making it, whatever making it is, or that, oh, my kid just plays sports, you know, rounding out the entire episode. This is a community based thing. Hockey. It. No matter how you look at it, it's a community based thing. There's parents, there's kids, there's. There's coaches. And Kendra, you know, I really love the, the scenario you just painted, you know, and, and again, it brings me to this question. You know, when we look at the stigma surrounding mental health, and I work in the space too, it is different today, drastically different today than it was even five, ten years ago. Like, there is a shift happening. We can feel it in my work. I'd say actually a majority of people are open to discuss this now as part of the program, if you will, for the season. I have very few parents descent from it. Some still do. And I understand. Right. But when I started doing this, it was 80 the other way. It was like, no, we don't. We don't. That's weakness. They're never gonna make it if they say something's wrong with them, which has been proven to be the worst thing you can possibly do in that scenario. So I want to ask you, you know, again, you painted a beautiful picture. There's. What are we looking at as the future? We're going the right direction, I feel like, but I think we're just at the start of what could become something very powerful. 

Kendra Fisher [1:05:38 - 1:05:38]: What. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:05:38 - 1:05:54]: What would you like to see in addition to what you just said in youth hockey? What education should we be providing coaches? Because that, that's another gap here is we do not educate the coaches enough on how to approach situations like this. And that's not on them. That's on the leadership. 

Kendra Fisher [1:05:54 - 1:05:55]: Yep. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:05:55 - 1:05:58]: And again, it goes. This is so beyond hockey. Right. It's not just hockey. 

Kendra Fisher [1:05:58 - 1:08:31]: Yep. Yeah. And I think that, I mean it's going to be, it's a complex answer because you're dealing with time investment, you're dealing with financial investment, you're dealing with different scenarios here. When you look at community hockey, there's so much disparity between what it looks like to be on a, you know, a house league team in a rural community versus what it looks like to be on a triple A team in a, in a metropolitan area. So I mean, all things considered, best case scenario in my experience in dealing with mental health is a, you're creating a safe environment where there is as much emphasis put on the person who is playing hockey as there is playing hockey because they are one in the same. We are now in a position where you're starting to see NHL teams lose stars to mental health issues and having to deal with it. What do you do when somebody like Patrick Laney comes off here, comes off the ice because he's not doing well? You don't cut him. You don't just cut them. You don't just say, well, he can't play hockey anymore at this level. So we're starting to see real time evidence of the fact that it's happening. We're not hiding it the same we used to and we are working with players to get them to a return to play as opposed to a, you're not good enough, you can't do this, you are damaged. And that messaging is going to matter and it's going to scare the out of organizations who don't want to deal with this isn't my responsibility. What happened to let's just suck it up and play hockey and be tough and, and, and we don't live in a world anymore where you just get to tell people to get over it, that's it's not actually being canceled. It's called having empathy. Like it's not, it's not about that. So B, when you look at the infrastructure, some of the places where you do have it available, whether it be financial or resource wise, I would love to see added to what is required of a coach or the training staff within organizations to have some insight as to at least having basic conversations about well being and wellness. Because if you ask a lot of coaches, I, I mean I, and I, I won't profess to know this answer, but most people have to get a coaching certification, be a coach. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:08:31 - 1:08:32]: Right. 

Kendra Fisher [1:08:32 - 1:08:47]: I'M not suggesting we add 30 programs for coaches to become coaches because you'll have people not becoming coaches. But why isn't this part of the program? Why isn't this part of the coaching? Why are we not ensuring that people actually know how to speak to people to be a coach? Because really, that's it. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:08:47 - 1:08:47]: Yeah. 

Kendra Fisher [1:08:47 - 1:08:59]: You don't have to become a psychologist. You don't have to, you don't have to be able to diagnose, you have to be able to have a human conversation with somebody. And sadly, there's a lot of coaches out there that don't know how, they know how to scream. 

Mike Bonelli [1:09:00 - 1:09:06]: I'm thinking about a thousand right now that are rolling their eyes. What, like I already did 17 hours of coaching education. 

Kendra Fisher [1:09:07 - 1:09:10]: I know, but why isn't that, why isn't that a module? 

Mike Bonelli [1:09:10 - 1:09:10]: Right, but. 

Sheri Hudspeth [1:09:10 - 1:09:12]: Well, yeah, I can plug in a. 

Mike Bonelli [1:09:12 - 1:10:33]: Module, no doubt, but we have a million modules, so. But I think the, I think the, I think the other side of this though is what you said earlier. It's the organizational's responsibility. Then think about this. You just mentioned about the NHL athletes. Patrick Line is a public figure. I guess we can mention him right in, in his, his struggles and what he's doing. But think about what you could do today as a parent with your 10, 11 and 12 year old to prepare them and build them to a place where we're not dealing with this when all of a sudden like, oh my God, I'm 25 years old and I'm, I'm dealing with this like there's so many better ways we can handle this at the youth level. Lee talks about it when we talk about team building like he's doing with eight year olds. You can't do team building with eight year olds. Well, team building with an eight year old may not look like what it looks like with an 18 year old, but you can in fact do it. So you can do mindfulness, you can do, you know, understanding. But, but I think that comes, that's where your point was earlier. If I'm a parent, find the organizations that offer those type of resources for you because you're going to be spending hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours with that organization in the ring. And if I'm an organization, conversely, I'm like, I want you in my rink more. So what am I going to do? I'm going to offer these great other programs that maybe my coaches, you know, my dads and my mom volunteers aren't quite equipped to handle, but I'm going to Put them around a support staff of people like you. 

Kendra Fisher [1:10:33 - 1:10:34]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [1:10:34 - 1:10:44]: Who then can. Can glom off of that. Yeah. That professional piece and then. And then. And then give it to me in nuggets so I can then see what I'm looking for. 

Kendra Fisher [1:10:44 - 1:12:18]: Yeah. And I think ultimately, because of how it's coming out and the way that it's showing up nowadays is, you know, sadly, it always takes pressure for change. Right. Like you require pressure for change. And when you are seeing that you have players who are now requiring these supports. And, and let me also say this. I mean, I've been working in mental health now for years. And given my background, hockey players know I've been working in mental health for years. The number of people I've worked with in secret versus the number of people that I can tell you I work with. Very different. You know, still a lot of that whole, like, hey, this is such and such organization. So. And so is not okay. Can you get down here right away? Like, you know, and, and we're changing from that. Which is, which is great because as we change from that, then the pressure goes on to the organizations to start creating programs that encompass that. That encompass building resiliency, that encompass building preventative tools into the mix. And you're right, there is no age limit. There's age appropriate, but there's no age limit. I mean, you can, you can teach a. My kindergarten. He does yoga in class. I'm sure sometimes, like it's, you know, there's different ways of introducing it and there's different ways of teaching how to recognize different behaviors. The more you create an openness to that, the more and the quicker you. You see benefit from that. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:12:18 - 1:12:44]: You know what, And I'll say this kind of in closing that I believe the future, not too distant future for programs and hockey is this. Is that they have to compete to get kids. That's just the reality of it. And I have a feeling that in the future, the programs that do what you said, Kendra, on the negative side of, oh, no, we don't do that. The mental fitness stuff, that doesn't matter, just suck it up. They're going to become the minority. 

Kendra Fisher [1:12:44 - 1:12:45]: Absolutely. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:12:45 - 1:13:07]: All right. And I think that that's not a great selling technique of we don't care about your kids mental health. And I think that some organizations, actually, I know some organizations are starting to recognize that and they're using mental health and mental fitness not only as a way to stand out from their competition, but because it's correct. It's right. It's. It's the right thing to do. We're creating people here, not just hockey players. 

Kendra Fisher [1:13:07 - 1:13:20]: And at the end of the day, you're creating better hockey players if they have good mental health. Because at the end of the day, I assure, assure you, the superstars in the game, when they are at their best, their mental health is in check. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:13:20 - 1:13:20]: Right. 

Kendra Fisher [1:13:20 - 1:13:32]: When they are having a bad game, you know, like, it's, there's too many, there's too much research, there's too much proof now behind the fact that if you are not both at the top of your game, mentally and physically. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:13:32 - 1:13:33]: Yeah. 

Kendra Fisher [1:13:33 - 1:13:35]: You are not the whole player. You could be. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:13:35 - 1:13:36]: Right. 

Kendra Fisher [1:13:36 - 1:13:58]: So it's not like a, it doesn't have to be like a peace offering. It doesn't have to be a marketing plan. It doesn't have to be like a, hey, guys, we, we'll talk about feelings and we'll coach your kid. It can be a, hey, guess what? We recognize that working with your kid on their mental health is just as important as working with your kid on their physical health. And that will make them the best player they can be. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:13:59 - 1:14:30]: Right. And, and again, I love everything we're talking about and one of our monikers is that good people become good players, great people become great players. And I, I, I, I hope and again, I know I'm seeing it that organizations listening to this, parents, players, coaches, bring this to your organization, bring this thought. Be the person that steps up and just starts the conversation. You don't have to lead it. I know everyone's afraid of that. Start the conversation. Yeah, right. This, this again, to your point, shouldn't have to be a separator, but it is. 

Kendra Fisher [1:14:30 - 1:14:30]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:14:30 - 1:14:46]: The other thing, too is it's the right thing to do. So, yeah. Kendra, this has been a wonderful interview. I can't thank you enough for being here today. I think this is a really important conversation. I think this is the, the mental health conversation that everybody needs to listen to from a podcast standpoint. I appreciate you bringing that, that a game today for us. 

Kendra Fisher [1:14:46 - 1:14:48]: Oh, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:14:48 - 1:15:30]: It goes both ways. And that's going to do it for this edition of our Girls Play Hockey. But really it's our girls play hockey, our goalies play hockey, our kids play hockey, all of it together in this one. This was a fantastic episode for Sherry Hudspeth, Mike Bonelli, Kendra Fisher. I'm Lee Lyce. We'll see you next time. Everybody skate on. We hope you enjoyed this edition of our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kids, playhockey.com Also, make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops atwhen hockey stops dot com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.