Our Kids Play Hockey

The Underappreciated Defenseman

• Season 1 • Episode 343

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In this episode of Our Kids Play Hockey, Lee and Mike shine a spotlight on one of hockey’s most vital yet underappreciated positions: the defenseman. They break down why strong defensive play is the key to offensive success and overall team stability. From understanding the “house” to the importance of skating, positioning, and transitions, this episode dives deep into the mindset and skills that make great defensemen so valuable.

Whether you’re a coach, player, or hockey parent, this episode will change how you view defensive hockey and give you practical tips for developing this essential role. It’s time to give defensemen the appreciation they deserve.

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Key Takeaways:

1.Defense Creates Offense: Strong defensive positioning and smart play drive successful offensive transitions.

2.The House Matters: The area in front of the net, known as “the house,” is where most goals are scored. Great defense keeps opponents out of this zone.

3.Positionless Hockey Starts With Understanding Roles: Players who know every position’s responsibilities are more valuable to their teams.

4.Patience Is a Virtue: Great defensemen dictate play by slowing it down when necessary and guiding opponents into low-percentage areas.

5.Stats Beyond Points: Celebrate and track defensive contributions like takeaways, blocked shots, and breakout passes—they’re critical for success.

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Practical Tips for Parents, Coaches, and Players:

•Parents: Encourage your young players to try all positions, including defense, to understand the game fully. Celebrate non-scoring stats like takeaways and blocked shots.

•Coaches: Emphasize skating, positioning, and decision-making in practices to develop smarter, more reliable defensemen.

•Players: Embrace roles and responsibilities on both sides of the ice, knowing that defensive skills make you more desirable to coaches.

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Lee MJ Elias [0:07 - 0:57]: Hello, hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome back to another edition of our Kids Play Hockey. It's Lee Elias with Michael Bonnelli today. Mike, I got a question to start this one off. If we were looking at, as a hockey team, as a band, right? The offenseman that digs through everybody, that's your lead guitarist. It's sexy, it's fast, right. It makes you want to listen to the song. Goaltender is probably the drummer, right? They keep the beat, the drum. If the drum beat's not on, everything's falling apart, right? And you got your rhythm guitar, right? Your rhythm guitars, definitely, you know, they support the wingers on the offense to make that nice pass to the lead guitarist to take away the solo that's going to make the song. But, Mike, if you don't have a bass player, your song is going to fall apart as well. And the bass player in our band, Mike, I believe, is a defenseman. Would you agree with that metaphor? 

Mike Bonelli [0:59 - 1:28]: Yeah, the metaphor is tough, but it, but, but I, I, but I, I see where you're going, and I think, you know, I think any of the kids listening would appreciate the music analogy piece and tying it all in. And, but it is, it's a good, it's a good way to describe the fact that there's all these different components of a band, as in hockey, and we can't just rely on. You can't just listen to a drummer for, you know, three hours. I guess you could, but. But to really create great music, you. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:28 - 2:34]: Have to have all those components to have all. It's got to be a symphony of teamwork. Pun intended. You know, if you listen to a song without bass, it's pretty boring, right? So today's episode is all going to be about the underappreciated defenseman. So what you can look to get out of this, Obviously, we're going to discuss the defensive positioning, not just for defensemen, but for everyone on the ice, and how important that position is, how it's underappreciated and how. I think in modern times, Mike, we can help coaches, parents, and players have a better understanding of why that position is so important, that everyone understands the responsibilities of that position, even if you don't play it. Right. Because I think the key term here, again, underappreciated defenseman. It is so true. We underappreciate bassists in a band. That's my point. We don't talk about the greatest basis of all time. All right? Paul McCartney was a great basis, but we don't Talk about his base playing. We talk about Lennon and him playing. That's for the older heads out there. All right, Beatles. Look it up, kids. Anyway, underappreciated defenseman. Mike, let's start with this. You just can't create offense without defense. Why don't we begin there and how important that position is to the game. 

Mike Bonelli [2:35 - 3:19]: Yeah, I think, I think the, the ability. When you're watching a player and you're watching a defense defenseman and you're looking at trying to figure out is this player a. A, a quality player for my team is somebody that's desirable to me, is it somebody that I can use to help me create more offense? That's honestly the player that could play just D. Again, there's, there's a, There's a lot of the Macar's out there and very, you know, everybody likes the, you know, the Bobby or analogy of grabbing the puck off the face, you know, off a face off, weaving through a couple of players, creating that offense, but without solid defense. And I think a lot of coaches, most coaches fall on the side of, I'd rather be in a 2:1 game than a 109 game. 

Lee MJ Elias [3:19 - 3:19]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [3:19 - 3:49]: And, and, but, but again, 109 games are fun. Fans probably love them. But if you're a coach that, that's got the ability to have a solid defenseman, somebody that plays defense and a team that plays defensive defense allows you to be so much more creative offensively because then you just, it's, it's more freewheeling. So if you think about, you know, how teams are structured, the ability to be in a structured defensive mode, you don't hear about free. You don't hear much about free play in the defensive zone. You certainly hear it in the offensive zone. 

Lee MJ Elias [3:49 - 3:50]: Yeah, it's true. 

Mike Bonelli [3:50 - 3:58]: But in the defensive zone, it gets really just down to being a very core, solid, you know, positional player. 

Lee MJ Elias [3:58 - 5:50]: Yeah. And I, I think traditionally, like, let's kind of break the myth when we think of defenseman, it's, oh, they stop the play in front of our own net. And that is such a small part of the broad aspects of being a defenseman. Again, just to separate. We'll let you know when we're talking about team defense versus a defenseman. We're focused on the defensive position right now, but that position is so much more than that in today's game, especially at the higher levels. Right. And you said it perfectly. Offense starts from the D. All right, now, going back to what you said about a 10, nine game versus, you know, a two to one game. When we really break down hockey, when you look at it, look, a great goaltender is obviously going to be a separator of two teams. If one team has a great goalie and the other team doesn't, and they're pretty comparable, we know who wins that game. All right, when you come out, it's not offense next, it's defense. Right? Because if you have great defense, that other team's not going to get as many shots, that the team's not going to get as many chances. Right? And your team will get more chances. And I think that we've kind of lost, lost sight of that a little bit. I think we look at who's the flash forward that can get down the ice and score 10 goals. I actually want my best skaters on D. All right? Now, another thing you brought up is also this mentality. And I preach to my players all the time that, yes, I understand. Look, I was an offense man, all right? I understand the will and the love of scoring and creating offense. I'm not negating that. But to be a great defensive player, you have got to have the same joy and elation in good defensive play, stopping the other team from scoring as you do when you score. That's the mentality side. And the amount of kids, Mike, that I see that don't want to play defense because they haven't, I'll say, learn that mentality yet. It's kind of devastating, especially on the younger kids, when I say, hey, I want you to play defense this game. I don't want to play D. Oh, man, you're missing an opportunity. You want to learn that position, right? 

Mike Bonelli [5:50 - 5:59]: You want to be boring. Like, if you're a really good defenseman, you want a real boring defenseman. The same thing as a goalie. Right. You just mentioned about the goaltending being that first line of defense. 

Lee MJ Elias [5:59 - 5:59]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [5:59 - 6:16]: When think about, think about your own team now, right? You're in a game, you have a goalie that is a great goalie, but they are, they are more Dominic Hasek then, then, you know, then it's just a solid like jumping and, and, and, and flying around and call that being. 

Lee MJ Elias [6:17 - 6:18]: Out of position most of the time. 

Mike Bonelli [6:18 - 6:40]: But yes, right, so they're athletic. But the anxiety for everybody from the. Because the defense doesn't know where you're going. They don't. Like, I, I want a, a goalie that just eats pucks, gobbles them up, controls the play, knows when to let the puck go, knows when to redirect it, knows when to get a face off, knows when to, you know, put the puck in a place where a defenseman or a forward can get it. 

Lee MJ Elias [6:40 - 6:40]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [6:40 - 6:48]: Like that to me is a calming influence in a game rather than maybe have a great goalie but just, it's just chaos. 

Lee MJ Elias [6:48 - 6:49]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [6:49 - 6:57]: And if you can avoid, then, you know, then you go back to now the defenseman or defensive player that's in that zone, the ability for that player to slow the game down. 

Lee MJ Elias [6:57 - 6:58]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [6:58 - 7:09]: Create space, create time. Give us the opportunity to let our star forwards get the puck and move it. That's what solid defense is to me. 

Lee MJ Elias [7:09 - 9:29]: Yeah. And look, let's, let's expand upon that. Right. I think that kind of talking to the parents a little bit here, you know, when you think about the excitement of the game, obviously the first step from a good defenseman is you're going to get the puck. Right. Let's just say that you're gonna, you're gonna find a way to get the puck from the other team and put your team in control. But I think the next step up, which is not that far away, is controlling the defensive zone, guiding offense from the other team to the outside, getting them to, to low percentage places on the ice. Right. You know, we're going to talk about that. The house are kind of between the dots in front of the net in a bit between the circles, but a good defenseman will guide a really good offense out of a good scoring position. I'll tell you right now. Speaking of goaltending, there's no goalie on the earth that doesn't want a shot from outside the dots in the corner versus coming right down the slot. So that's part of the chess match, if you will, of playing really good defense. And I'm going to say it again, it behooves all players, all players, regardless of position, to understand that aspect of the game. If the other team can't get quality shots, they can't get quality goals. All right. I'm not saying squeakers don't happen. All right. But I'll tell you right now, I'd rather a team take 30 shots from outside the dots than five shots within the dots. That's that. And the stats support that, by the way. Right. It's. We know that the low percentage shots are out there. Most goals take place right in front of the net. So a defenseman's brain and the ability to see, okay, I've got a right handed forward coming in. I need to push them to the right side of the ice which will keep them on their backhand and make sure they don't get into that position. And then working with another defenseman of take away the passing lane there. We talk about a symphony before, man, that stuff is art to me. All right? You want to talk about defusing a play, that stuff's really important. Right? Again, we're talking about the defensive side of defense right? Now, when you flip it to offense, look, most offensive plays, most of them start with a defenseman. Most of them start with a great first pass, as we used to say 20 years ago. Most of them start with the D just moving the puck up the ice. Most of them start with the defenseman reading the play and understanding to move it to the other side of the ice, maybe where there's not so much traffic. Right. That's the conductor of the symphony in a lot of ways, if you will. I'll get off that metaphor halfway through the episode, don't worry. But my point is great. D, man, you really think the game. You make the offense happen, right, Mike? There's no O without D. There's no. 

Mike Bonelli [9:29 - 9:48]: O without D. And the. And the game. The. The. Think about the sport of hockey, right? It doesn't start at the offensive blue line. Yeah. Like, to me, it's not. Like, it's not. Remember, I think there was a rule at one point, or maybe there's a sport where, you know, they put the puck at the blue line, everybody else has to go on the goal line, and that's like your penalty. Like, so you can start with the puck, but then everybody can chase you. 

Lee MJ Elias [9:48 - 9:49]: Yeah, right. 

Mike Bonelli [9:49 - 11:17]: And so that's. But that's not what happens in. In real hockey. So the play doesn't automatically just end up at the blue line, and then the offensive guy comes in and makes a move and gets a shot on that. All of that other ice, 75% of the other ice has to come from the defensive zone. And, you know, the. The analog. You know, the. The old adage that, you know, good offense is created by great defense. It's. It. There's a. There's a reason why we talk about that, because all five players being in the defensive zone, creating that time to get the puck and then having the space and the opportunity to now dictate the offensive play is really what happens. I think going back to that defensive side, I mean, there's nothing more frustrating right? Then. Then your defense does a great job of getting the puck below the. Below the. The red line. There's a shot, you know, the shot on net. He gets the rebound and what does he do? He rims the puck up the board. So where does it go? To the other defenseman. Then shoots it right back. And so to be able to get that puck and then create a step to, to create a space, to create a lane. And the offensive players knowing that you're not going to just throw the puck away, that you're going to have a little patience to look for that player now to give them the opportunity to move up ice, that is how good offense happens. And it, it, it. It eliminates a lot of dump and chase hockey. It eliminates a lot of throw it away and go get it hockey. It allow the more composure that can happen in the defensive zone and possession, the more composure can happen. As we get, we. We enter the zone at the offensive blue line. 

Lee MJ Elias [11:17 - 14:18]: Yeah. And, and look, we. As we usually do on the show, I'll break it down kind of 12 and down and 12 and up, right. With. With the kids younger than 12, it is so common for a D to get the puck and just throw it without thinking. And one of the things that we're really working on at that D at we'll say 10 years old right now is, hey, patience, right? If someone's really right on you, I, I understand the need to throw the puck. As long as you don't throw it in front of our own net, we're fine. But most of the time, you. You have at least a couple seconds. And Mike, one of the things we've been doing on, on the team I'm working with now is we've actually told the wingers, I want you to stick length off the boards because A, it takes away the, oh, the wingers on the boards kind of mentality, and B, it forces the D to look up to make that pass. Just so, you know, for the wingers, you know, if they do r up the boards, you have enough space to get back to the boards and get the puck. That's why I'm not worried. We also don't like it when the wingers are on the boards with the back, the wall, the. The boards behind them. You've taken away all that space. So something as simple as the wingers coming off the boards. Another thing that I like to do, okay. And I've actually talked about this years ago on the show, is I will often have my wings and my D at practice. Every once in a while, just switch positions so that they can each understand and comprehend the pressures of that position. So when the wings go and play D, they understand, oh, I do have an extra time. I have to look up. This isn't as easy as I thought. When there's pressure and the D on the wing. Understand, like, wow. When this thing just comes firing around the boards, it's not as easy to catch that puck as I thought. So that's a little bit of a tactic. But I get my wingers off the boards. I have my D look up. I also encourage my D, Mike. And this is getting to the little bit of above 12 years old. If there's skating room in front of you, start skating the puck. All right? You know, depending on the situation, depending on what you're seeing in front of you, take the ice they're giving you right now, I'm not saying skate into four people on the other team, but if they're backing out and they're playing a little conservative, start skating it up, draw one of them to you, look up and make that great pass. That's something that's really changed in the game over the last 20 years. You know, when we were kids, I think it was, you know, deed of the wing, wing of the center or center out. That was the very basics of it. But now it's completely different. And, you know, it's not just Kilma Carr that that has. Has made that happen. Right? This has been happening for a while with the mobile defenseman, but D behind the net, we're talking about the patience, the understanding. This is why you're underappreciated. To make that first pass for offense is huge. Right? And if you miss it, it's a turnover. Right? So I think you're 100, right? Mike, about the D. The other thing I was going to say, again, going back to 12 and under, how important are D if you can get a really good neutral zone, regroup of to D to D across the ice and up, you're going to do really well. Because Most kids below 12 don't have a great forecheck and they just kind of. I don't say they all follow the puck, but they can get lost. They're not super focused. If you are in a forward check, I'm sorry, a regroup, and you go D, cross to the other D and up to the other forward. You're going to get some offense doing that. And I see the great teams do that. Right. It's hard to defend it that. But that's another one of those offensive plays, starting with the D, right? The ability to work on that. It's so underappreciated. 

Mike Bonelli [14:19 - 15:19]: Right. And I think that that Neutral zone is that, is that quick transition that creates pace, that creates possession. That quick transition in the game allows you, the puck comes back to you at your blue line and you can move it north, you know, east to west, and then move it north and south and then move it east to west. That transition and that flow and that, that, that ability to possess the puck allows the wingers and the forwards to then move into positions that are benefiting them ultimately. And what it does is open up. Lancy, to your point with the players. If I go D to D and the player doesn't, and the, the, the forechecking players don't attack me. I have ice. Take the ice. If you could take the ice all. I mean, that's funny. I was working with a couple of kids the other day and they weren't passing the puck and they were, you know, a lot, a lot, a lot of, you know, now here, everybody. You gotta pass, you gotta pass. And I have a rule for my kids. If you don't. If you could go down and take the score, never pass the puck. 

Lee MJ Elias [15:20 - 15:20]: I agree. 

Mike Bonelli [15:21 - 16:00]: Yeah, right. But none of us can do that. So, so, so, so just learn the fact that the, the puck moving helps you. If you want to be a great offensive defenseman, then create space and get ice. Move the puck somewhere that you can now get back to open ice and open space. And I think that's where that transitional play, which is being more and more, you know, again, when you look at, when you look at the way USA Hockey is, has kind of put the rules in place right now where, you know, it's automatic off sides. The thought process there is that it should create more mobile defensemen. 

Lee MJ Elias [16:00 - 16:00]: Yeah, right. 

Mike Bonelli [16:00 - 16:44]: It should create more transition. I, I think what happens is I never see that in a game. Honestly, I don't see it enough. And I just see a lot of off sides. So everybody complains that the game takes longer and there's a. Well but said. Yeah, but then you have to teach. Like the whole idea is to teach that. Yeah, coach, you don't want the office. So I think that's where, you know, again, to your point, that, that ability for a defenseman to be such a great skater because if they're going to pivot and turn and transition and go from edge to edge and east to west and spin off and, and, and create offense, you better be a good skater because if you fall and you trip and you bobble the puck, there ain't nothing else but the goalie. 

Lee MJ Elias [16:44 - 16:45]: And that's where. 

Mike Bonelli [16:45 - 17:12]: And that. And and you're exposed, it's like know when you lose the puck in the corner as a winger and somebody out battles you and they pop out of the corner and they start going down ice, there's really not. It's not that noticeable. But when you fall at the blue line and bobble the puck and somebody. And somebody skates by you, everybody in the rink knows it. And I think that's where that ability to be able to pivot and turn and have the skating dynamics in the sport just becomes more and more. More important. 

Lee MJ Elias [17:12 - 20:49]: Yeah. And look, looking at the full breadth of positions here, you know, when we work with goaltenders, what do we do? Edge work. Edge work. Edge work. Positionally, edge work. You know, your goalies probably have the greatest edges on the team, right. It's very rare that you'll see a goalie skate out and they can't skate. Okay. In terms of just skating defense, in my practices, we do a lot of edge work. We do a lot of ability of all directions, north, south, east, west with our skating. Because you said it, if that D can't skate first off, if the other team figures out somebody can't cut left, you have a problem. All right? So skating is super important. It's important for everybody, obviously. But I'm saying when you look at building a great defenseman, you want to make sure that they have the ability to move their feet. Right. Stick handling always comes, comes after that. Now listen, we're talking about this too. You said it. I believe, Mike, feel free to disagree with me at all the levels that I have worked at, right? The separator, the biggest separator between levels. It's not talent, okay. It's not even compete level, although that's pretty close. All right? It's transition. It's the ability to read the play and quickly transition from offensive defense and defense to offense. The higher the level, the faster that transition happens. All right? And just to make the joke, when you look at Mike hockey, the transition happens five seconds after the play has already gone on to offense. If you will just do this quick, you go all the way up to the NHL level. The transition takes place five seconds before the puck has gone from offense to defense. You talk about a 10 second transition difference. And then I think within those 10 seconds is, is your growth, is your evolution of a hockey player. And a defenseman has such an important role in that transition. Not just the speed, but the pace. Right? To understand of, okay, we got to move it now, quick, the other way or we got to slow it down and wait a minute. I think one of my favorite players of all time, Mike, that did this, and this guy was known for more, his physicality. But I think Chris Pronger, who had played for the Whalers, the Flyers, the Blues, won a Stanley cup with the Anaheim Ducks, right, Was briefly in Edmonton, lost the Stanley cup there. He was so smart with the puck. His ability to read what was happening in front of him was. Is the reason he's a Hall of Fame player. All right? He understood when to move it quick. He understood when to slow it down. There's even. There's even videos, a funny one you can watch that a team was playing a one three one trap and he just held the puck in his own zone. He would. He refused to move it up and they stood with it for a minute in the offensive zone when he was on the waters, the defensive zone, like this guy's reading the play. The psychological side of the game. Talk about underappreciation. I want you to think about this, all my listeners. Again, the power of the D to stop the game is insane when you think about it. When talking about Chris Pronger here, all right? He stopped the game from happening. So a defenseman's ability to transition the puck again, offensive defense, defense to offense and control the pace and understand what's happening, man, you can spring your team from that, right? If you just rush it and nobody's ready and you just rush the puck up there, it's probably going to be a turnover. But if you get it, you read your offense, you understand the speed. Do I go D to D? Do I read the play? Man, that can make a huge difference in a game. So the transition is the separator. I think pace is also a super underappreciated skill, Mike. Again, we're talking a second, one second. To let your offense figure it out can be a huge difference. Or really the opposing team's offense, if they're out of position, moving a quick reading that. That can change the game. Completely change the game, right? 

Mike Bonelli [20:49 - 22:31]: I think even in today's game, where it's positional as hockey like that, we're trying to go toward. We're going. We're going towards the role that five players are playing. You still need to play defense. Like even. I think when people think of positional as hockey, they only think of the offensive part of the game and they only think about, oh, well, positional hockey means the right winger and the left winger can go to center and the center can go to right wing and left wing and that's not what it means at all. Yeah. And then at the blue line, the offensive blue line, way I think most coaches think about positional, as hockey is from the blue line in. If my D or my D have to be static at the blue line, they can. They can. They can shimmy down the boards, scissor off somebody. They could come down a lot of goals. You see in the NHL right now, in college hockey, the defensive are scoring goals by being below the hash marks in the offensive zone. Yeah, but that. But that's. When you say position is hockey, you have to understand that that doesn't translate and transfer back into your defensive zone. Like you. If you watch. If you watch a defenseman that doesn't understand, like in the. In the defensive zone. Right. You're a player, you're a defenseman, a defensive zone. If you just rush out against the high guy at the blue line and you miss him and nobody is covering, we'll get back to the house in a little bit. But nobody's covering the most vulnerable areas of the ice, then positional saki doesn't work anymore. No. So, but that. That's where I'm saying, like the underappreciated piece of the defensive play. Is that how important it is to gain possession, gain an understanding of how much pace you have, how much time you have? If that transition even has to happen? Sometimes. Sometimes. If you see a line change, that transition has to happen quick. Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [22:31 - 22:32]: Right up the ice 100. 

Mike Bonelli [22:32 - 22:49]: If. If you're changing, if your team's changing, and we see it more and more and more, when you watch the NHL and you watch overtime, three on three, you can really appreciate a defenseman, a defensive player, slowing the pace down to nothing. 

Lee MJ Elias [22:49 - 22:50]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [22:50 - 22:53]: Because what are they doing that goes outside their zone? 

Lee MJ Elias [22:53 - 22:54]: It's a great point. 

Mike Bonelli [22:54 - 23:35]: They wait for their two wingers to change. Yeah. They don't rush up the ice without support. They wait for layers, and then they could take those layers into the offensive zone. But that is a skill. There is a. There is a. There's a lot of high hockey IQ going on there. When you think about waiting and being patient and being fast, but not being quick. Right. Just all those little things that you look for as a coach and when you want your players to be, wow, am I. Am I elevating the pace? Am I slowing the pace down? And then how is that relating to my transition? That is so underappreciated by. By. When you look for players that can create that atmosphere for you. Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [23:35 - 26:50]: That's the Name of our next book, by the way. Fast, not quick. You know, I'll give you a great development strategy here, Mike, of. Of positionalist hockey and. And how that applies because I think it's a great point. I think there is a little bit of misunderstanding with this. The key of positionless hockey is everyone knows everyone else's position. This is where I think people get lost, right? It's not a free for all in positionless hockey. It's everyone can play every position. It doesn't mean a center should be playing D, but it means that everyone understands it. So the way we're developing this on some of the teams I'm working on, Mike, is we'll take the defensive zone. We have been extremely clear. Follow me here. Left wing, right wing, center, both D, what is your area of the ice to patrol? Okay. Of the. This area. We've shaded this area out. As a right winger, this is your responsibility to patrol this area. But we also tell the team that as you evolve in the game, we don't necessarily want them switching wings or centers or anything at this point. Or D, you will need to understand every area of patrol because you may end up as a D if you're the first one in the. In the. In the zone. Right. Again, this is later on, but right now we want you understanding these are the areas to patrol. These are the responsibilities in this area. And we tell them you have to learn everyone else's responsibility. Not just so you know it, because you never know A, when you're going to end up in that area. B, you also have to understand how you will respond to certain situations should the puck move around the ice. Right? So again, this is the foundational point. This is the basic. And I think the basic point here, Mike, is actually the way the game was played 20, 30 years ago. And that's where a lot of, I think parents, and we'll say older school coaches get lost, right? This is now the foundation of understanding. And again, when you move into the offensive zone, whatever your forecheck is, look, it's very possible in today's game, a defenseman is going to be the first person into the zone if they're carrying the puck. Now you are 01, you're forward one. Right. So someone has to understand the position and the. And the areas of that system. And I think where a lot of kids get killed and again, use whatever system you want. Coaches listening or parents, just any system you want. It's. You only know your responsibility as F2. It's a mistake you got to know what everyone on that ice is doing all the time. And the really good players with the high IQ know their position, they know everybody else's position, they can seamlessly transition to everybody else's position. And more importantly, they know how the positions need to interact to create great offense. That's positionalist. Positionless hockey to me, right. Is understanding the chess match. You know what every piece can do. Again, last metaphor here. It would be like playing chess and you only know what the knight can do. You don't know what the queen can do. You don't know what the rook can do. You only know what one piece can do. So you're waiting for that piece to go, you know, forward and sideways, but you have no idea that every other piece moves differently. You couldn't play chess like that. Right. You have to know all of the positions, all of the pieces. So that to me is positionless. I'm not saying that word. Well, today, hockey, right. 

Mike Bonelli [26:50 - 26:57]: And in a five on five game in the sport of hockey, it can't be four people knowing what positionless hockey is and one not. 

Lee MJ Elias [26:57 - 26:58]: Yeah, got a problem there. 

Mike Bonelli [26:58 - 27:04]: It doesn't work. Like you can't say, well, all of us going to play positionless except the left D. The lefty is always going to play lefty. 

Lee MJ Elias [27:04 - 27:05]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [27:05 - 27:25]: Okay, well then, then it doesn't work. And I think that's where, honestly, I think that's where coaches really struggle at the youth hockey level all the way up to 18U in the manufacturing teams. And they think that every line of kids has to play the same way. I think when you get older now, you start talking about, you know, 14, 15, 16 year olds. 

Lee MJ Elias [27:25 - 27:25]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [27:25 - 27:35]: You know, that's where you could, you could create a line of players that understand those concepts and then the next wave of players that come out maybe don't play that way. 

Lee MJ Elias [27:35 - 27:35]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [27:35 - 28:14]: It doesn't mean that everyone has to play that way. On your team. As you get to higher level start, you know, teams have to start defining what certain players do, even what certain lines do. Like even with certain units of five, do that. You, if you have a, if you have a group of five that can just wheel and deal and cut and play and move and slice and getting where they want on the ice, then I would use them differently than your other team that maybe your other, your other group of kids that maybe doesn't have the same IQ or skilled sets, that maybe has to dump the puck in more. I mean, there are like, this is where, this is where you get the Coach. Right. This is where you learn. 

Lee MJ Elias [28:14 - 28:16]: This is where bench management comes in. 

Mike Bonelli [28:16 - 29:10]: This is where you learn that every. All 18 players or how many you have. It doesn't have to be a cookie cutter setting the kids on the ice at nine. Yeah, it's a little more cookie cutter, but at. At 16, 17, 18, you can't just roll lines out there and. And. And say, this is the system we're playing. Yeah, but these six kids don't know how to play that system because they don't have the skill set. Well, I'm going to make them get the skill set. Well, how? You can't just force them to understand it. You have to teach that. It's a lot of work to teach. So I think that's when you start seeing real successful teams are the ones that can put together lines and waves of players that understand how to play with each other. And that's what the beauty about coaching is. If you. The kids that are listening to this episode, you know, if you have coaches that assign you a role, it might not be because that's all they think you can do, but they might think that's how you work well with the other four players that they have you out there with. 

Lee MJ Elias [29:10 - 29:10]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [29:11 - 29:20]: That's a badge of honor. I would take that. 100%. Say this is the way you want me to play. This is the group that we're playing this way. 100%. I'm all in. I'm buying into the system. 

Lee MJ Elias [29:20 - 30:15]: Mike, you make a great point. You know, having a role is value, all right? And. And you want to have value to your coaching staff, especially when you're older. Again, Mike makes a good point. I think. I think under. Under. We'll say under 10, for sure. But under 12, everyone should be playing. All right? You should all be skating. You should all be figuring it out. But when you get over that, 12 roles come in different lines. I mean, like, I've been part of a grinder line. My job was to go out there and destroy that offense and make them get tired. Right. Without. Without obviously giving them a chance to score. All right. I embraced that role that season. There was other seasons. I was the goal scorer. Right. You have to understand the role. And Mike, you said it. You want to get really complicated just for the. The future. There's. There's lines of five that play well with each other. There's also times, like going back to defenseman A D has to know which offensive group is out there, and they might have to adjust their play based on that. Right. We Talked about the D to D, regroup up the ice. Can't do that with every offensive line, right? 

Mike Bonelli [30:15 - 30:26]: Are you. Do you know how many times I've whispered into the next D going up saying, okay, you see the group you're going out with, you can't do this. 

Lee MJ Elias [30:26 - 30:28]: Like, like get ready for some defense. 

Mike Bonelli [30:28 - 30:32]: Understand again, that's not a knock on the kids. 

Lee MJ Elias [30:32 - 30:33]: It's an understanding. 

Mike Bonelli [30:33 - 30:48]: It's just, it's just, guys, I'm putting you out here. There's, there's. This is your role. This is, this next, you know, 50 seconds because this is the group you're going out with. Maybe it's, maybe it's in a game where I gotta get. Listen, like I'm not, I'm not a sitting kids on the bench guy. I want everybody to play. 

Lee MJ Elias [30:48 - 30:49]: I, I agree. 

Mike Bonelli [30:49 - 30:56]: You also have to understand that you can't just put your five worst players on the ice together. Like, you can't just say, hey, you know, because I want everybody to play. I'm throwing. 

Lee MJ Elias [30:56 - 30:59]: This is bench management. This is Bench Management 101. 

Mike Bonelli [30:59 - 31:52]: So I might take, I might take those two really, really good defensemen that I know can control the play. Say, listen, when you go out here with this group, you're playing a different way. Just get through the shift. You're going to get your opportunity to be fancy and spin ramas and, and, and put the puck off that your, you know, and spin around the guy on, on the back end. That's not, that's not the shift. And you need to communicate that. And I think if you're a player, you know, going back to the underappreciated defenseman sometimes, like that player is not flashy. You just know you're putting that player out there. A, you know you're going to get a puck off the glass B, you know, they're going to possess the puck. They're going to eat pucks like the pucks aren't getting through them and that doesn't show up. I've never seen a player of the week. I haven't. I, I haven't seen a player of the week that wasn't based off of points. I've never. 

Lee MJ Elias [31:52 - 31:53]: That's super fair, Mike. 

Mike Bonelli [31:53 - 32:00]: Like, I haven't seen so and so player of the week. They scored any points. They were a plus seven. 

Lee MJ Elias [32:00 - 32:01]: Yeah. 12. 

Mike Bonelli [32:01 - 32:18]: No penalties. Eight, 16 pucks in two games. Yeah, they, they were the, like, you know, our good friend Mike Weaver, we used to, we used to joke around that in the NHL if they would have a fourth assist Yep. He would have led the NHL. 

Lee MJ Elias [32:18 - 32:19]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [32:20 - 32:21]: Because puck's got out of the zone. 

Lee MJ Elias [32:21 - 32:23]: Yeah. But great teams noticed that. 

Mike Bonelli [32:23 - 32:27]: Puck's got the professionals. Notice that. 

Lee MJ Elias [32:27 - 32:27]: Yes. 

Mike Bonelli [32:27 - 32:59]: Bucks got out of the zone to three players that could move the puck or two players. You're in one, but you never like the assist doesn't go to the guy who eats a puck at the, at the top of the circle in the defensive zone, chips it off the glass, puts it to 100ft of open ice for an offensive player to go get it. You don't get points for that. And that is where that's from. From my point of view, working with a lot of defensemen that don't get that credit, it's because it's. It is underappreciated. 

Lee MJ Elias [32:59 - 33:01]: It's extremely. 

Mike Bonelli [33:01 - 33:07]: It gets lost in the shuffle of points and production because you're getting the job done. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:07 - 33:17]: Right. Right. And again, it's funny how it goes from that. Goaltenders are underappreciated too well. They didn't get player league well. They didn't get a shutout. Guy made 40 saves. It's like, you know, like. 

Mike Bonelli [33:18 - 33:21]: And he made six of them with a minute left in the game. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:21 - 33:22]: Right. And. 

Mike Bonelli [33:22 - 33:39]: And your. Your. Your. Your offense decided they weren't going to show up and play D, so. But again, so that's what I'm, I'm speaking more from the side of you. Of. You know, when you watch a hockey game in, On. On tv, the. The. In the frame is all you see. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:39 - 33:40]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [33:40 - 33:54]: You don't see all this stuff outside the frame. So the fact that once this all like, the play happened and then everybody like you. The ESPN highlights don't start with the block shot. It starts with the behind the back pass to the back door. Goal. 

Lee MJ Elias [33:54 - 33:55]: You're 100, right? 

Mike Bonelli [33:55 - 34:20]: And this is where. When, when coaches watch and it. And it's hard because, oh, I don't have the points. A good recruiter, a good coach, somebody that's just picking a team does notice that. They do. And, and the way you get noticed is, you know, one. One of my points was keep it simple is more desirable than being flashy. 

Lee MJ Elias [34:20 - 34:21]: It just is. 

Mike Bonelli [34:21 - 34:43]: When you get right down to the, to the game of hockey, the player, the player in the defensive zone, that's simple. That sees a lane, that moves a puck, that finds an angle. The risk reward to me as a coach is like, I feel very confident the player is getting the puck on their stick. 

Lee MJ Elias [34:44 - 34:44]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [34:44 - 34:47]: Not, oh, my God, the players got the puck on their stick. 

Lee MJ Elias [34:48 - 35:38]: You're making a Huge point here for the parents listening. This is so important for you to understand as a coach, speaking for both Mike and I, the comfort. And that is. That is the word, the comfort in knowing a D is going to keep it simple and get it out and they are reliable and you can trust them. Trust is the key word here. I will take 10 of those over the forward. That is minus one with three goals, meaning they've scored three goals, but they had four goals scored against. It is very little value to me as a coach if you're not playing D as a forward. All right? And again, we all know that kid that can. They can deke and they can shoot and they're. It's really wizardry on the ice to get to the puck, to the net. But man, if you score three and give up four, that's not good for me. 

Mike Bonelli [35:39 - 35:44]: You know, me players of the game, I've seen that have scored three goals and been a negative one and gotten player of the game. Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [35:45 - 35:45]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [35:45 - 35:48]: I said, why? Why don't do it. 

Lee MJ Elias [35:48 - 35:49]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [35:49 - 35:57]: The player, you know, because that's all people see. They don't see, like, they don't expect the right winger to score three goals, to not be on the ice for three against. 

Lee MJ Elias [35:57 - 35:57]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [35:57 - 35:59]: Like, so you're a wash for me, buddy. 

Lee MJ Elias [35:59 - 36:04]: Like, yes, you're worse than a wash. You gave up a goal. 

Mike Bonelli [36:04 - 36:15]: Right. So you're really not helping me. A lot of people like, well, and then, you know, then you could get to. You could get into the nitty gritty, like, wow, the player gets more ice time than anybody else, blah, blah. But the fact is your. Your best player can't be your worst player. 

Lee MJ Elias [36:15 - 36:22]: Well, and I gotta, I gotta say this too, just real quick. And I want you to continue that. It's also on the coach to stop that from happening. 

Mike Bonelli [36:22 - 36:22]: You. 

Lee MJ Elias [36:22 - 36:23]: You have to coach to that. 

Mike Bonelli [36:23 - 36:23]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [36:23 - 36:31]: If. If that player can't understand both sides of the ice. And now it's on me to make sure that they learn that throughout the season. I do want to say that. So it's. 

Mike Bonelli [36:31 - 36:46]: Well, unless. Unless like you said at the beginning, unless you don't mind being in. In 10 to nine games. If you want to be in a 10. Listen, if you want to be in a 10, nine game and live and die by that offensive player that doesn't play defense. Yeah. I mean, it's almost like the blue line for some players is like. Is like kryptonite. 

Lee MJ Elias [36:46 - 36:47]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [36:48 - 36:52]: I don't go in that zone over there. Your job is to chip the puck out to Me? 

Lee MJ Elias [36:52 - 36:52]: How about this? 

Mike Bonelli [36:53 - 36:53]: Mike? 

Lee MJ Elias [36:53 - 37:17]: Mike, I got one for you. For the parents listening, we're at a tryout, okay, or an eval, and we see a kid. This is gonna be funny to say. We see a kid just with tremendous offensive potential. We'll just say it like that. But there's no defense. And you see a defenseman that is just solid, unbelievably solid. Great, great wheels, understands the play. I'm probably picking the D over that forward. 

Mike Bonelli [37:18 - 37:18]: All right? 

Lee MJ Elias [37:18 - 37:33]: If I had to pick one right now, hopefully you can pick both of them. But, like, if I had to choose, I'm choosing that D. All right? If I have both of them, that's obviously the best sick case scenario. But, like, parents, you gotta understand that, because I. I hear parents go score, like, whoa. 

Mike Bonelli [37:34 - 37:34]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [37:34 - 37:47]: I mean, I want the kid to score, but you got to see it from both sides of the ice. It's. It's the. The. The music starts in the back end, Mike. That brings me just to another point. Unless. Did you have something else on that? I didn't want to. I kind of cut you off there. 

Mike Bonelli [37:47 - 38:04]: No, no, you cut me out because I think we're speaking the same language here. I mean, it just. When you're. When you. I think. I think you have to take it from a point of view of an evaluator, a coach, somebody building a team probably looks at those differently than somebody that's just looking for the flash in the pan. 

Lee MJ Elias [38:05 - 38:06]: We're the evaluators and. 

Mike Bonelli [38:07 - 38:15]: Yeah. And I think. But. But when you're. When you're a player and you. You take care of business, I know you probably don't think people notice, and, you know. And frankly. 

Lee MJ Elias [38:15 - 38:15]: Oh, we do. 

Mike Bonelli [38:15 - 39:25]: A lot of people probably don't notice, but they'll do it. At the. When it all comes down to it, at the end of the day, like, I joke around a lot with the players I work with, too. Is that, like, at some point somebody's got to be a defenseman. We can't have, like, I. I did an evaluation. I'll never forget this. So a player is 16 years old, new York State camp, and on my notes, I wrote down that he was our best back checking defenseman. I said, if you're the best back checking defense on a team, you ain't playing D. I said, I don't understand, like, what you're doing. Like, why are you always. And because at some point, you do have to play D. I don't care if you're in positionless hockey. I don't care if you're in the, in the open flow of five on five and everybody just does what they want to do and, and the coverage is there 100%. I, I, I think it's, it is fun. It's, it's great. If you're in the stands and you're, you're, you're not a fan of anybody and you get to watch kids wheeling and flying through the zones and, and sealing gaps, and that's all great. But if you are, if you're a play, if you're a coach building a team from the back out, and we all need goal scorers, you probably, probably pick your goal, probably pick that, that unbelievable goal scorer. 

Lee MJ Elias [39:25 - 39:27]: You need offense. That's what I would say. You need offense. 

Mike Bonelli [39:27 - 40:01]: You need offense. So, so, and a lot of coaches don't want, they don't want to build a team to manufacture offense. They want a team built to get a kid that just scores seven goals a game. And I'll play five on four in the zone. I get it. But when you're, when you're doing that in the defensive zone, you still need defensive help and you need the desirable player. That's simple, that's strong, that is stable, and puts them in a great situation for you, for you to say, okay, minute left in a game, put that kid out there, we're going to be safe. 

Lee MJ Elias [40:01 - 40:04]: Yeah, that's comfort. That's the comfort I was talking about. 

Mike Bonelli [40:04 - 40:09]: And there's, there's a, there's a, there's a huge market for those players at the end of the day. 

Lee MJ Elias [40:09 - 40:26]: Yeah. And look, we should also mention that that's not just defense. Right. That's, that's, the show's about defenseman. But defensive play, where you can put someone out there, understand that they're going to be able to be out there and be safe from a center position too, who's a very defensive player usually in the defensive zone. 

Mike Bonelli [40:26 - 41:12]: This, this is what, think about this scenario. You're in the car right now, right? You're driving to the ring and you're listening to this. Think about the scenario. You're the best offensive. Three players on the ice. There's a minute left in a game and a face off in the offensive zone. Say you're winning by two. Let's just make believe you're winning by two goals. If I'm a coach, should I put you out on the ice knowing that all you think about is the offense? All you think about is offense. Like, I know you'll never retreat. I know you'll Never cover the middle of the ice. I know you'll never get in the position when there's a turnover. You're going to get baited and you're going after that puck. I'm probably not putting you on the ice, but. But those are our. Those are the three best offensive players we have in the offensive zone. Okay, well, I don't need a goal right now. I'm up by two. 

Lee MJ Elias [41:12 - 41:12]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [41:12 - 42:14]: So I'm not going to put you out there in that situation. I'm putting out and. And parents are going to cringe like, oh, my God, I can't believe they put this kid out there. You know what I know about that kid? I know he's going to get to the middle of the ice, he's going to get the puck on his stick and he's going to put the puck deep and he's going to put the puck in a safe place. He's not going to try to do a dangle at the red line and beat a guy because to get his. To get the third goal that we don't need. He's not. And he's not going to be on the ice for a breakaway, you know, for. And now it's 2 to 1. And now there's 20 seconds left in the game and all the pressures on us. So this is where coaching strategy, understanding your personnel. But yeah, offense and defenseman, offenseman, defenseman, offensive women, defensive women. Being a good defensive player is very, very desirable in. Especially in situations at the end of periods, at the end of games, after big goals are scored for you, not being on the side of, you know, only thinking about going one way. 

Lee MJ Elias [42:14 - 42:23]: You know, I want to dive into that word, desirable, because thinking about evals and tryouts, when we're recording this in January, they're not. They're not so far away. Right. 

Mike Bonelli [42:24 - 42:25]: You know, I think I saw a couple listed today. 

Lee MJ Elias [42:25 - 45:49]: So, yeah, it's like they're coming up, you know, parents. I gotta talk to the parents a little bit. I'm gonna be somewhat critical. First off, desirable. You want your kid to be desirable. If your kid can play D or defensive positioning, to me, you're automatically desirable. And I would actually question any coach that wouldn't pick that kid because of that. Right. If your kid's doing that at an eval and not getting picked, that would be weird to me. And I actually don't think that that's super likely to happen because I think coaches look for that. But parents, speaking to the younger age levels, what can you do to help Assist your kids in this journey, which is really the whole point of our podcast here. And I'm going to say it, I'm going to say it kind of almost poignantly here. Stop telling your kid and stop telling the coaches what position your kid is. You are not helping your kid by convincing them that they're a center and telling the coach, first line center coaches, coach, coach, make them a center. Man, you are being a detriment at the younger ages. I'm talking, okay, talking like might, squirt, and even peewee. Your kid needs to learn every position. I'm not saying they need to be at a different position every game. Sure, there should be a little bit of consistency when you're learning the positions, but do not get in the car and tell your kid, man, if you were at wing today, we would have succeeded. You're hurting your kid. You're not hurting us, you're hurting your kid. Because now that kid believes, well, I'm a right wing. There's nothing worse for me than when I'm asking a kid to play D and they go, I'm not a defenseman. Well, you better be a defenseman. If you're playing hockey. You better understand defensive hockey. All right, I'll tell you right now. How about this, Mike, if we're putting weight on this, it is more valuable to a coach for you to understand the defensive side of the game as in terms of all players, than all players understand the offensive side of the game. All right? Because to be fair, as much as I want offense from my D, I don't necessarily need them going all the way down the ice. I need them being the bass player back at the blue line. All right? And understanding how to do everything we talked about in this episode. Stop telling your kid that they're a certain position. Encourage your kid adversely to try all positions. If your coach puts you at D and you think you're a center, I can, I can tell you, I can understand why that would be frustrating. I'm not, I'm not negating that. But parents, you got to tell your kid to embrace that. All right, Again, stories here. I love telling stories. All right? Something I have been getting on my team about. And Mike, we've talked about this on other episodes. I actually, I actually got intense is the right word with my team the other day because I was so tired keeping on. These are 10 year olds of these forwards going right at the D with their puck in front of them, trying to deke around the D, which works one out of every 15 times. All right? The other 14 times, the D gets it. And I got real intense with them of. This makes no sense what you are doing. You are watching highlights of some of the greatest players in the world who, by the way, don't do that that often. Try and dig through a guy when if you just cut left or cut right, get a quick shot, you will get a rebound and score, which, by the way, to me, is not boring. I don't know when that became boring. Shots are not boring. 

Mike Bonelli [45:49 - 45:49]: All right? 

Lee MJ Elias [45:49 - 47:30]: I put those offense on D and say, defenseman, skate right at the. Skate right at him. Isn't that easy to do? It blows my mind. All right? You're helping the D by doing that. You're actually giving them reps. Now. Think about it, all right? Parents, you gotta let them explore every position when they're younger, all right? And again, listen, I. I will admit this. I was not proficient at D in terms of being a defenseman until I got older and I understood the game a little bit more and I had that patience. I wanted to score goals. I wanted to create offense. I was hungry to score. I was an offense man, okay? That's part of my personality at that time when I was playing. Okay? And as I got older, I think that was pretty understood. But I also understood I had to get back and understand the defensive position. All right? Not everyone is going to be a D, and that's okay. But you got to understand all the positions. So stop telling your kid that they're the position that they think that they are and encourage them to try other positions and encourage them when their coach puts them at a different position. Well, you should learn that position. Well, I want to be this. I understand. You want to be that other position. Learn this position. Because coming full circle here, Mike, if you don't know what the other four players on the ice are doing, you have a major problem and you are not going to get picked for the team you want to get picked for, guaranteed. Okay? Even when you get older and you have roles, you know, playmaker, scorer, defensive, defensive defenseman, often, even when those roles come in, you still need to know what the other players on the ice are doing or you're not making that team, or worse, you'll become a detriment to that team. Which I've seen. 

Mike Bonelli [47:30 - 47:30]: Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [47:30 - 48:08]: All right? You gotta understand that from a young age. Again, I'm getting intense now. Sorry. But like, that, to me, is so important. I can't stand it when kids get upset when I ask them to play D. Right. They should. Again, I'm not saying you should be jumping for joy or anything like that, but first off, I mean, the team needs you to do this, right? That's. That's kind of number one. Number two is that you gotta embrace it. And then. Last thing, Mike, just for the parents. Kids, ask questions. Parents encourage your kids to ask questions. One of the standing rules on one of my teams is I want you to bring three questions to practice. 

Mike Bonelli [48:08 - 48:09]: Right? 

Lee MJ Elias [48:09 - 48:42]: I want you to ask questions. I want you to learn. Don't stay. Don't stay quiet. Right. And just because you're asking questions about D doesn't mean I'm going to keep you on D. I want you to know. So those are some tactics intensely explained by Lehis about positions, but keeping it back to the underappreciated D, we have one more point we want to talk about, which, again, just. Just closing that point. Simple is more desirable than complex. All right? And that's the point that Mike. Mike and I, I think, are trying to make here. Understanding those things. Mike, any closing thoughts on that before we go to the kind of next topic? That's the last. 

Mike Bonelli [48:42 - 48:53]: That doesn't mean. That doesn't mean you can't try things. It doesn't mean that you have to be stifled by not being creative. 

Lee MJ Elias [48:53 - 48:53]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [48:53 - 48:58]: It means just like. Like I'm watching. 

Lee MJ Elias [48:59 - 48:59]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [48:59 - 49:12]: Yeah. Like, I'm watching games where you easily could score a goal. You know, not easily, but, you know, you're in a great position to move the puck or pass the puck in the offensive zone, and you're just trying the Michigan, and I'm not against the Michigan. I think it's awesome. I really do. Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [49:12 - 49:13]: There's a time and a place for. 

Mike Bonelli [49:13 - 50:32]: It, but it's like, okay, is that. What. Is that your go to play when there's. When there's 17 other plays ahead of that that you could make same thing in the defensive zone. Yes. I love the fact that you could pull up, pivot and do a spin. Arama. And get out of zone. Great. But just understand when you know where that is and when it is and. And just try to be conscious of the fact that, you know, you have certain roles to play. And then getting back to your point about, you know, players thinking they're just defensemen or offensive players that, you know, we are. We. We are in a world where that. That you should. Not that you have to play play D, but understanding that that could actually be an advantage to your best winger. Yeah. Like. Like, to me, I don't sometimes I coach. Right. So. And I. And I. I look at it as. I. I still don't understand, like, on. On face offs where every time it's a face off in the neutral zone, there's two wingers and 2D on the face off. Like, I don't personally understand that. Like, there's no. Like, to me, it's like, well, why wouldn't you put the, like in the. In the center ice. Why wouldn't you put like the. The. That D and the winger behind the D. Yeah. So that they can create offense and get out of the zone. Like, all you're doing is. I was just slapping pucks back and forth. 

Lee MJ Elias [50:32 - 50:44]: Right. And I do just adding on to that, too, just for the point I made. I think it's also important to understand. I'm not saying that in the middle of a random game, you should put a winger on D or things like that. Right. 

Mike Bonelli [50:44 - 50:45]: You gotta create this. This is. This is. 

Lee MJ Elias [50:45 - 50:58]: Yeah, this is through practice. And. And like, I want. I want to make sure I'm. I didn't say that. And I don't want parents thinking. I'm saying, when I. When a coach says you go to D, that. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying this is experience based at practice. Okay, Sorry. I just wanted to make that caveat, Mike. 

Mike Bonelli [50:58 - 51:21]: Yeah. You're building. You're building that if you have the rapport with your players and you're building a system of. Of positionalist hockey and, and be able to play in all these different positions, then, yes, you have to. That. That's very important. Yes, no doubt that. You have to. That. You have to create that. That atmosphere ahead of time. You can't just in the middle of a second period go, you know what? We're going to start doing positionalist hockey because I think that's the right thing to do. 

Lee MJ Elias [51:21 - 53:06]: Yeah, well, I mean, you can do it. It's not going to be a favorable outcome. Like, the last point today is, and we kind of teased this earlier, is just all about the house and the underappreciated defenseman. So, again, for those of you understanding or listening that don't know, the house is really between the dots in front of your own net, kind of from the top of the circles down, we'll make it easy. There's a box there, right. We call that the house. In every league, at every age, majority of goals are scored in that area. All right. From the NHL down, high percentage, you get a shot in that area. It has the best Chance of going in the net. So great defenseman and underappreciated defenseman will defend that area. And most of the time, the best defensemans, the puck won't even get into that area if they're doing it right adversely. Great offensive, great offenses will find a way to penetrate that area and get shots. All right? That's the, the constant battle in the NHL. We had that great episode of Our Kids play goalie with Steve Alketti talked about the royal road. You should go watch that. If you don't know what the royal road is, go listen or watch the episode with Steve Aliquette. It will change how your kids play. All right? But great defensemen, underappreciated defensemen will keep the puck out of that area. And we talked about this earlier, where I don't necessarily want a D that's going to allow players in there. Great D. Will I say it like this? They will guide the opposing team's offense outside of that area, right? And. And this is where D get lost, right? They. They younger D poke or move and a great offensive player is going to let you do that so they can get in there, right? The under. I don't know if there's a stat for D that, that guide offense away from that area. In youth hockey, at least I know the NHL, they take everything but man, is that an underappreciated area. 

Mike Bonelli [53:08 - 53:42]: Your ability to dictate where the player goes is much more desirable to me than your ability to recover after the player goes somewhere they want to go in the first place. Like so. So when you watch a drill, when you watch player. When you watch all of us do drills, right? And all the drills are the winger flies around the zone, gets a puck, comes down, the defense is in the middle of the ice and the winger drives to the outside. Most. Most coaches are like, that's a great thing. You gotta drive. You gotta drive. I'm like, yeah, well, that's every. I love that every defenseman wants you to go out. 

Lee MJ Elias [53:42 - 53:44]: They all want you to do like, that's what. 

Mike Bonelli [53:44 - 54:47]: Help. Thank you for helping me. Like, why would I want to. Why would I want to try to chase you when you cut back against me, right? So I think when you watch players and like when I watch evaluations of players at the 14, 15, 16 year old level, I want to see a player that's going to get into that house. I want to see a player that's going to be an aggressive offensive player to make that D. If that D wants to keep backing off. Then I'm going to create a space where I can have, I have to make that defenseman pivot. If I'm just going to skate down the boards and allow that D to follow me to the corner and then seal me off like that. Okay, that's a desirable D to me. Like if that D can now dictate where their stick is, where the lane's allowed to be. You know, you don't have to be a great skater to play great defense. You just need to be a great positional, defensive, defensive person. And with a great. I call it like when you hear me talking to my kids, like, great stick, great stick, great stick, great stick. They're used. That's what's the sport allows you to use this, this stick. Use the stick to your advantage by putting it in places where you don't want somebody going. And that is the house. 

Lee MJ Elias [54:47 - 56:49]: Yeah. And let's. I, I actually want to expand the calculus of this a little bit, Mike, for the highest level of like maybe looking into the mind of a top level defenseman. So let's say a forward is coming in and they're right handed. We talked about this earlier. The D is thinking about a lot of things. Of one, I want to get this person on their backhand. So they're going to use their stick and their body to guide them again to the right side of the ice for the defenseman, because that's going to put them on their backhand. That D will also be thinking about where is their defensive partner. They'll be thinking about is the other winger left handed or right handed? Am I creating a place to take away that passing? And they're probably, if they're really good thinking a few steps ahead, I'm going to put them in the boards and get it to my right handed winger. I mean, there's a lot of things that go into this thought process again built up at practice. A lot of them come automatically at a game. All right. That the D is thinking about, of, if I make them go this direction, this is what happens. If I make them go that direction, this is what happens. Or a D might go, this guy's going to force me to defend him on his forehand. How do I take away that shooting area now also just again, looking at this from adversely, just to kind of support our point. If you watch high level hockey now, and this is the difference between high level and younger hockey. Younger hockey kid comes in, goes wide, just has to take the shot, just has to shoot that puck right. Because that's the goal of the game is to shoot the puck. When you look at a high level game, usually the. The F1 comes in and you start seeing that puck move quickly around the perimeter because they're trying to create time and space as an offense. Right. Again, we won't get into how to defend that right now because that's a, that's a five, five person job. But my point to you is that this is where it starts. Like, offense reacting to defense is moving that puck around the perimeter of the offensive zone to create time and space. Right? Great. D don't allow that to happen. All right? And again, you said it right? When an offense pick comes in and goes wide, especially at the younger ages, because they probably don't know where to go from there, that's what the D wants. But I'll tell you this too, Mike. One on one, if you come straight at the D with the puck in front of you, the D wants that too, because it's easy to defend. All right? You know what I mean? It's easy. 

Mike Bonelli [56:49 - 56:56]: Well, this is where we get, this is where we start getting really like thinking about the, the pace and, and gapping and space. 

Lee MJ Elias [56:56 - 56:57]: Yes. 

Mike Bonelli [56:58 - 57:11]: Because what happens is in. As you, as you climb the ladders of hockey, 12, 13, 14 AAA real hockey, you allowing that player to go the outside is not the end of the game. 

Lee MJ Elias [57:11 - 57:11]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [57:11 - 58:58]: It's now because everybody's expecting that player to wheel around the net. How many goals are we seeing go short side, you know, the goalie in the reverse vh cheating a little bit, and that puck's going off their head and into the, you know, your ability, like I call it, like, if you're a good defenseman, if you're an elite defenseman, a boring defenseman, you are not allowing a shot from the top of the circle down to past the goal line. You just don't allow the shot. Now, how do you not allow that shot? You've got to be, You've got to have it. You gotta have tight gap. You've got to be in great position, you got to have a good stick, but you also can't respect that forward so much that you're allowing them the stick length space of getting a shot off. If they're able to get a shot off. You did not defend right earlier in your life, when you were 12 years old and 10 years old and a player shoots the puck at the top of the circle on net, you. You did a pretty good job. You did, you did, you did your job. Goalie should stop that Buck. But when you start getting, when you start getting above 14, 15 years old and you allow that player to. To get a shot off anywhere in the offensive zone, you are now no longer doing your job. You're just not all. The goalie has to do something. The goalie has their job to do. Your job is to not allow that shot to get taken. Because shooting creates chaos. Chaos in the house creates goals. And that's what that underappreciated defenseman needs to understand. I don't need you to do anything fancy. I just need you to gap up, stick down, seal that player off, put them in a place where they can't shoot, and then more importantly to your point about the better levels, wait for that wave of players to come in and then wait for your help. And I don't think enough defensemen understand that. All I got to do is slow this guy down a little bit. 

Lee MJ Elias [58:58 - 58:59]: That's it. That's it. 

Mike Bonelli [58:59 - 59:08]: I don't need to play him one on one. I just need to play, I want to play him three on one. The only way I can do that is to slow him to a place where I can get my teammates to come help me. 

Lee MJ Elias [59:08 - 59:18]: Yeah, I think Mike, just closing this out, you know, we all, we all hear the time and space. Gotta create time and space. Gotta create time and space. But I think everyone thinks about that offensively of create time and space to take a shot. 

Mike Bonelli [59:18 - 59:18]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [59:18 - 59:49]: You think about it defensively too. You create time and space so that the defense can rejoin you in the zone. Right. So again, pushing an offensive person outside the dots to allow time for the rest of the players to come back in the zone. That's a smart play. And you're right, we don't see that enough. Everyone is so craving these players listening. We're craving these one on one highlight reel maneuvers and they rarely work. It's actually akin to the Michigan. There's a time and a place. 

Mike Bonelli [59:49 - 59:50]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [59:50 - 1:00:22]: All right. And. But it's rare. Right. And again, my best offensive forwards, one on one with the D, are not winning that. The best case scenario is half the time. Best case scenario. I don't think I've ever seen it above that. All right. Because a D can guide you. Right. It's kind of in the defense. Remember, the defenseman has a goalie behind them. They actually have the advantage. Right. Doesn't matter how good you are. And again, that's assuming the talent level is comparable. I should say that too. Right. You know, if you put a 12 year old against a 6 year old he's going to win every time, most likely. But. 

Mike Bonelli [1:00:22 - 1:00:41]: Yeah, yeah, but if you understand space as a defend, defending player, if you understand that space and that, and that pace and that time and the ability to clog up areas of the ice where you don't want somebody to go, just, you know, taking your ice, like create, you take the ice first. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:00:42 - 1:00:42]: Yeah. 

Mike Bonelli [1:00:42 - 1:01:08]: Not chasing like, like, if you're a read and react defenseman, you're probably not lasting very long. No, it's not, it's, it's, it's controlling and dictating. Yeah. What players do is what makes you a great defenseman. And that is so hard to see for mom and dad in the stands. I get it, I get it. I mean, yeah, I understand that you're not, you know, you have four points on the year, but they, what you don't. But you had, you had 170 takeaways. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:01:08 - 1:01:09]: Right? 

Mike Bonelli [1:01:09 - 1:01:26]: Like that to me is, I mean, basketball does a good job with that, you know, creating that stat defensively. But hockey maybe needs to do a better job of appreciating the fact that you're eliminating offense and moving the puck and moving the puck to a place where somebody could actually create offense. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:01:26 - 1:01:40]: Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of sports, you know, I think about football, right. When the offense wins the game, the offense, the quarterback, the running back, the, the wide receiver won the game. But when the defense stops the drive, it's all the offense screwed up. You know, you're saying you're about, oh. 

Mike Bonelli [1:01:40 - 1:01:44]: The defense, they couldn't do a good job. Well, they're actually, there is actually another team out there. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:01:44 - 1:02:57]: Yeah, there's an amazing defense out there. All right, so look, just to close this up, parents have a, have a, a massive appreciation the defensive side of the game, no matter what pos position your kid plays. I'm saying that in an encouraging way. Like, like embrace that. Coaches, we actually have to develop these defensemen as well. Right. We have to coach to the points that we're talking about and beyond on this episode. If you're not coaching the defense up, it's on us. Right. And then to the player, embrace it all. Understand, becoming a two way player or understanding how to play defense in general is vital not just to success for your team before you get picked for a team. All right? Coaches are looking for this. I, it's not. I, I think it'd be tough to find a coach that doesn't understand the value of great defense. Okay. And I was a forward and I'm saying this right in fact, I coach defense most of the time now because I, I see the game from an offensive point of view. So I can tell the D, this is what this guy or girl is going to try and do. Right? There's value with that. Same thing. Reverse with, with an offense, man. So, I'm sorry, Offensive coach Mike, great episode. The underappreciated defenseman. I, I loved every second of this, buddy. I always like doing these episodes. 

Mike Bonelli [1:02:57 - 1:03:02]: I hated playing D too. So, I mean, you know, I mean, me, I was like, now adult league, I'll play D every day. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:03:02 - 1:03:04]: Yeah, it's because we're slow and old. It makes it a lot easier to play. 

Mike Bonelli [1:03:05 - 1:03:35]: You're smarter. I'm like, I'm watching players come down, they're dangling and moving, punching their legs and, yeah, chopping wood off. And I'm like, okay, well, where are you going to go? Like, the sport allows you to be successful because the only place you can score is the net. Like, there's no other ways to score. So. So the game allows you to be a better defenseman if you just play simple, smart, you know, offensive hockey. Thinking I. All I have to do is stop the puck and move it to a place where my guy. To take it. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:03:36 - 1:03:36]: Right. 

Mike Bonelli [1:03:36 - 1:03:59]: Or for me to take it. But again, I think it's just something to really look out for. If you're a coach listening to the episode, you know, give those, Give those defensemen more pats on the back. If you're a parent, if you have a parent that has a defenseman who doesn't have a point all year, accentuate the great plays, accentuate the great D, accentuate the good chips and pick stats. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:03:59 - 1:04:03]: That you can accentuate. Right? Well, you had five takeaways in that game. Like, like, look at those stats, right? 

Mike Bonelli [1:04:03 - 1:04:10]: How many bruises do you have on your thigh? That's a good stat. I want to see that. How many times eating a puck. I want to see that. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:04:10 - 1:04:56]: Serious, though, right? Like, like, you got to change what points are, right? Like, yeah, points are sexy. But, like, hey, how many takeaways did you have? How many offensive situations did you stop tonight? How many great first passes did you have? If I'm a parent of a defenseman, these are the things I'm watching. Points are bonus for D in my opinion. Right? They're bonus. Okay, coaches, same thing. Like, and again, we track this in some of the locker rooms of takeaways and, and, and first passes. I have, I made charts for D in locker pro locker rooms where we track that. And guess what? The D love it because now they are being appreciated. All right. And the offense appreciates it too. You start seeing the game differently. So those are some of the tactics you could do. Again, great episode. A lot of info in this one. Want to thank you all for listening to the underappreciated defenseman. Hopefully gonna make them the appreciated defenseman. 

Mike Bonelli [1:04:56 - 1:04:57]: All right, let's appreciate those dig. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:04:58 - 1:05:45]: Let's appreciate the day that's going to do it for this episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. For Mike Benelli. I'm Lee Elias. Remember, you can message us, questions, comments, anything you want. There's a link accompanying the the description for this episode. Click that. You can text us or you can email us team@arkansashockey.com with that said, appreciate your D. We'll see you in the next episode. Everybody. Have a great day. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, Our Kids Play Hockey dot com. Also make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops atwhen hockey stops dot com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey and we'll see you on the next episode. 

People on this episode

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Lee MJ Elias

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Christie Casciano Burns

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Mike Bonelli

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Sheri Hudspeth

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Katelynn Reiss

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Xavier Cruz

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