Our Kids Play Hockey
Our Kids Play Hockey is a podcast that focuses on youth hockey, offering insights, stories, and interviews from the hockey community. It provides valuable advice for parents, coaches, and players, covering various aspects of the game, including skill development, sportsmanship, teamwork, and creating a positive experience for young athletes. The show frequently features guests who share their expertise and personal experiences in youth hockey, both on and off the ice.
The show features three hockey parents, who all work in the game at high levels:
- Christie Casciano-Burns - USA Hockey Columnist, Author, and WSYR Anchor
- Mike Bonelli - USA Hockey Coach and Organizational Consultant
- Lee M.J. Elias - Hockey Entrepreneur, Author, and Team Strategist
In addition to the main podcast, there are several spin-off series that dive into specific aspects of youth hockey:
1.Our Girls Play Hockey – This series highlights the growing presence of girls in hockey, addressing the unique challenges they face while celebrating their accomplishments and contributions to the sport. Each episode of Our Girls Play Hockey is also hosted by Sheri Hudspeth who is the Director, Youth Hockey Programs and Fan Development for the Vegas Golden Knights.
2.The Ride to The Rink – A shorter, motivational series designed to be listened to on the way to the rink, offering quick, inspirational tips and advice to help players and parents get into the right mindset before a game or practice.
3.Our Kids Play Goalie – This series is dedicated to young goalies and the unique challenges they face. It provides advice for players, parents, and coaches on how to support and develop young goaltenders, focusing on the mental and physical demands of the position.
Together, these shows provide a comprehensive platform for parents, players, and coaches involved in youth hockey, offering insights for all aspects of the sport, from parenting, playing, or coaching to specialized positions like goaltending.
Our Kids Play Hockey
The Power of Mental Performance with Coach Vinny Malts
In today’s episode of Our Kids Play Hockey, we dive into the critical role of mental performance in hockey with Coach Vinny Malts, a former pro player turned elite mental performance coach. Vinny has worked with athletes at every level, including as the first-ever mindset performance coach in the NHL, helping players strengthen their confidence, focus, and resilience.
Together, we explore why mental training is becoming as essential as physical training, how young players can develop their own mental game, and why youth hockey should not mirror the pro game. Vinny shares insights on how parents and coaches can cultivate confidence, reduce stress, and help young athletes find their unique path in the sport.
🔹 Key Takeaways:
✔️ Why mental performance training is now a priority for NHL teams
✔️ How overloading young players with information can hurt their development
✔️ The importance of social clarity and team communication in hockey
✔️ Why Mite AAA rankings may be doing more harm than good
✔️ How to encourage your child’s intrinsic motivation instead of forcing them to work harder
This episode is packed with actionable insights for parents, coaches, and players alike. If you’re serious about helping your child grow in hockey—and in life—this is a must-listen!
🎧 Listen now and don’t forget to share with your hockey community!
#OurKidsPlayHockey #MentalPerformance #HockeyMindset #YouthHockey #HockeyParents
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Lee MJ Elias [0:07 - 1:09]: Hello hockey friends and families around the world and welcome back to another episode of our Kids Play Hockey. It's Liam Mike with you today and our guest was a pro hockey player and today is a pro mental performance coach at the NHL level. Vinnie Maltz began his hockey career in the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League with the Hola Olympics and was drafted by the Vancouver canucks in the 98 NHL Entry Draft. After a decade long professional playing career, he transitioned coaching, bringing his onx experience to various levels including the ECHL and junior hockey. Today, as the founder of Bloodline Hockey, Vinnie has dedicated over 20 years to mental performance training for athletes. Integrating mental conditioning into athletes training regimens, aiming to increase confidence, mental toughness and consistency for all. His expertise has led him to roles with several teams and organizations including being the first mindset performance coach in the NHL, having worked with the Chicago Blackhawks and today the Edmonton Oilers. Today is all about the power of mental performance and how we can provide that to our kids. He's a husband, he's a dad, he's our guest today. Vinnie, welcome to our Kids Play Hockey.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:09 - 1:13]: Thank you, thank you very much and thank you for all that intro.
Lee MJ Elias [1:14 - 1:50]: We take pride in our intros, man. I, I, we don't want to just come on and be like here he is. Vinnie, we, we, we like to let the audience know your accomplishment. No doubt, no doubt. I never want to start an episode. So Vinnie, tell us about yourself to do. But hey Vinny, look, I've been a fan of yours for a long time, listeners. Just so you know, this is someone we're going to want you to follow on socials, particularly at Coachvinny Maltz is his handle. I love your stuff so much. You've taken mental performance training to the NHL. Can you talk to our audience, particularly the parents about why professional teams are prioritizing mental performance training today?
Coach VinnyMalts [1:50 - 2:58]: Yeah, great question. It's funny, there's so many different, you know, segments to it, you know, but I guess the fundamental one is now, you know, just like strength conditioning started and had its era where when it came up and players adapted and realized, oh wow, if I strengthen my body, I and I build it up well now it's going to increase my performance and it's going to make me even better. And so what's happened in today's world and you know, you guys will appreciate this where there's so much to think about now, there's, there's so many thoughts, you know, in the sphere of information and so now what it's evolved into well, back then was strength and conditioning is now mental performance because like, oh wow, there's endless ways to think about this process. There's so many things you can think about. But do you have a way to actually concentrate your thinking? Do you have a way to actually know with your belief system what matters most? And that's a huge competitive advantage in today's game and today's world. So as a professional now, that's why it's become professionalized as a process. Because if you don't have it, it's literally impossible, I would say, to succeed at that level anymore.
Lee MJ Elias [2:59 - 2:59]: Right.
Coach VinnyMalts [2:59 - 3:39]: Because if you don't have a way of figuring out why you think a certain way, what you're going to focus in on, how you're going to handle emotional things that are going to pop up, how you're going to handle what's going on with others, the judgment. So if you don't have a way to consolidate that and stay focused, focused on your own process and know, oh, I know these are, these are the outside factors, it doesn't matter to my process. If you don't do that as a, as a pretty much daily check in, there's no way you're going to succeed at a professional level, in any high level. You know, there's plenty of professions you can get into. But when we're talking about high level and you're talking about the best of the best kind of environments like that, super challenging to do it without mental performance.
Mike Bonelli [3:39 - 4:29]: You think that mental performance piece, I mean you mentioned about, you know, the ability for those players to use that as a muscle. Do you think it, it could be the same thing as sports performance where it's overused, like they're overthinking, they're, there's way too much info. I mean, think about the player now from where you were and where they are and the, the amount of information these players have to process, you know, it's got to be such. And at the pro level, you know, I just talked to, actually I talked to a Division 1 college coach yesterday that talk, you know, we're just kind of spitballing a little bit about some of the tools they use for the kids. He's like, oh, we have, we have catapult, we have huddle, we have instat, we have, you know, metricing, we have all this, you know, all this stuff that the kids are exposed to and it's like sometimes you just gotta wipe it away and it's just way too much information for these kids.
Coach VinnyMalts [4:29 - 5:58]: You nailed it, Mike. You nailed it. So the art of what I do with my role is figuring out what's the most important piece of information for you, and then we build off of that and help them to clarify what doesn't matter. Well, these are the situation, right? So to your point, some players may love to watch video and that ignites them, but literally there's some that, it stresses them out, right? They think they have to be perfect in every single segment, all that. So when I identify that, you know, through our process and like, look at it, I go, okay, then we can't watch as much video. You've got to eliminate that. Because for you personally, that's an overload on the system. So to your point, right, it's being very conscious of which players need. How much do they need, how much do they not need, right? And it's funny, I. I'll always get into different arguments with different, you know, leadership, where on that end of where they'll make the argument of, well, isn't this too much? Well, some players actually need more because they don't even know in their schema and their frameworks, in their own mind how to even think in process oriented, you know, scientific orientation. Like, there's no, there's no step by step process that allows them to repeat it, that allows them to do it over and over again, right? Like we talk about sustainability. So some might need a little bit more, others need less. But that's what you have to figure out is, is this the player who's good with less and oh, they get it. Or is this the player who, wow, there's actually no history there to know how to utilize this. So we have to educate them first on the front end, then pull back on the back end. So there's a whole nuanced art that I'm sure, Lee, you can appreciate.
Lee MJ Elias [5:58 - 7:46]: Oh, I love it. Yeah. Vinny, what's funny to me is that, look, I always appreciate when a coach says to me, look, this mental stuff, I know I need it, but I don't know where to start. All right, first, it's a great question, all right? And my answer usually is, you probably know more than you think, right? And what you just described is really similar to going to the gym for the first time. All right? I always, I always call it like mental fitness, right? When you go to the gym, if you've never been to the gym before, like, you're just saying it's kind of overwhelming. There's a lot of different machines. I don't know what to work on. What do I do? And if you get a good coach or a good trainer, they're going to say, well, okay, what do you want to work on? What makes you feel good? Well, I want to work on my. My. My upper body. All right, now we have a direction we can go into. Let's show you the machines. I like this machine. I don't like that machine. You start to develop a plan. You find the environment, you find the plan. No two athletes probably have the exact same workout, and your mind works exactly the same way. And again, I always make this metaphor, too. We're real patient with kids when they're learning to walk. They all do it at different paces in different times. We're all accepting of that. But when it comes to the mind, it's. What, is that too much? Is that too. Well, that's why we have to tinker, you know? And I've always loved that metaphor. Between the gym, like the physical workout gym, and the mental gym, athletes, coaches, parents, families, you have to find what works for you. And it may change over time, Right? And again, when you get. If you want gigantic triceps, when you get them, you might want to move on to something else, but you got to maintain the triceps. There's a lot of. A lot of similarities there. The other thing I wanted to bring up, Vinnie, is we thought we were just talking about pro athletes. I'm not saying that a pro athlete's life is simple in any way, but there's a clear focus when you're a pro athlete.
Coach VinnyMalts [7:46 - 7:46]: Correct?
Lee MJ Elias [7:46 - 8:12]: Bringing this back to kids and this. This is something like I implore to parents. I actually think a kid's life is a lot harder mentally in a lot of ways than a pro athlete's life. They have school, they have families, they are growing up. And in whatever age they're at, they're dealing with whatever issues come with that age, right? I mean, there's so much multiple sports pressure from everywhere, and we treat them like, this is no big deal.
Coach VinnyMalts [8:12 - 8:12]: This.
Lee MJ Elias [8:12 - 8:33]: This is no big deal. It's like, guys, they have a crazier life than we did. I always tell parents, vinnie, put yourself in your kid's schedule. Could you survive that today? Right? Physically, probably. Not Mentally, probably. But I want to ask this question. What are some of the first steps or stepping stones that youth hockey families can take to get these mental reps at home? Keeping in mind, kind of everything we.
Coach VinnyMalts [8:33 - 9:09]: Just said, no, you nailed it. You know, one of the first things that we have to recognize through everything you just laid out There and framed is there swing certainty and uncertainty. Right. There's a lot of uncertainty when you're younger and you're coming out to your point. Right. Biologically, we all know teenage years, it's all about the peers. I'm not listening to people that are giving me advice. I'm listening more. I'm modeling this person's draft, you know, drafting ushl. This person's gonna. This person got committed. There's way more of this comparison and judgment that, no, you shouldn't compare, you shouldn't judge. And we try to layer that on and it's like, well, you know, don't look at the pink elephant. It's just.
Lee MJ Elias [9:09 - 9:09]: Right.
Coach VinnyMalts [9:09 - 9:22]: The same thing. Like, all right, no, that's not how it works. Right. So, you know, the biggest part of when you talk about the tools is recognizing that there is a huge difference between a professional and a youth player.
Mike Bonelli [9:22 - 9:23]: Right.
Coach VinnyMalts [9:23 - 9:36]: And unfortunately, what I've seen through the years and we've all seen is that, oh, look at that YouTube clip of an NHL team doing that practice. Look what they're doing in practice. Great. These kids are 10, you know, squirt, b, whatever it is.
Lee MJ Elias [9:36 - 9:36]: Yeah.
Coach VinnyMalts [9:36 - 12:08]: Let's implement that into our practice today. And you've got, you know, 10 kids are still standing and waiting, and the practice continues on and the coach thinks they're a genius on. Wow. I took an NHL framing and put it into our practice. What a great drill. I'm so good. And so that's where a lot of this stuff has to get to the forefront. Is that fundamentally, are we differentiating? There are two different worlds, right? In the youth world, there's a ton of uncertainty. We have no idea what's going to happen. We have no idea the trajectory of the kid. Literally. NHL scouts don't know. No one knows you. You risk and probability. You kind of do the best you can, but no one actually knows. Right. So when you're younger, that uncertainty is massive. It's way bigger. We have no idea is the kid gonna love it? You know what's going to happen in the future. You have no idea what's going to happen. But once you become a professional, well, you just signed a contract. You now have more certainty. You have gotten paid, so you have a job to do. You have a clear focus. And there's plenty of uncertain things that happen as a professional, but you now have been hired to do a job. So now you know there's some certainty that goes on. I know this is my role. I know that's required of me. I'm going to get all this support to make sure that I'm clear on what I need to do. So there's way more of that going on where there's this certainty level that goes on because you've now been paid to do a job, right? At the amateur youth level, that's not reality. So we have to first, number one, stop taking principles from the professional level and saying, oh, let's use them at youth. They're two. They're literally two different worlds, right? It's like the universe of the duality of energy, night and day, hot and cold, positive, negative, love and hate. Take your pick. So it's just got to be amateur, professional, divide them and figure out how they balance out. But they have to be two completely different worlds on the spectrum, right? They kind of do this as you grow, right? They are completely two different animals. So that's the first thing is stop taking. Especially when they're 8, 9, 10 years old, they are so far away from this spot. Stop taking the principles and trying to infuse them in when they're this young. That's the first thing that I'd say, is that we have to delineate that there's a major difference between the two and then start to build upon. Okay, so then what does that look like for my child? That now they're growing and they're young. And so to your point, a lot of what, you know, I dial in on with my own kids, right? My son turning 8 this week. My daughter just turned 11 this morning, right?
Lee MJ Elias [12:08 - 12:10]: So happy birthday to her.
Coach VinnyMalts [12:10 - 12:24]: Thank you. Thank you. So the idea, right, is that I'm always, as a professional, as somebody trained in this, I'm always checking my biases on, there's still children. Be patient. They don't know yet. You guys should be doing it.
Mike Bonelli [12:24 - 12:25]: No, no, no, no.
Coach VinnyMalts [12:25 - 13:40]: They don't know yet. They're young. They have no idea. So I think that's the first part that needs to get some sunlight on. It is it's really hard at the beginning because everyone has these professional ideas that they want to infuse into their kids and into the youth when the reality is it takes time. All of us, if we look at our pattern of how we developed as human beings, it took us time engaging with the world, experiencing things, going through different scenarios, making mistakes, and as we went, we learned. Ah, okay, now that makes sense. As opposed to what I see a lot of is, well, I'm telling you what you need to do. You should already know and, and this frustration and they're still yelling and all that stuff that continues on at these younger levels when it's like, that's not reality. So the differentiating, right. Of really understanding that there's a huge difference between the two and we have to stop trying to intertwine the two worlds and say, okay, this is youth. It's a totally different ball game. What does that actually look like? As opposed to a lot of the pundits we know, guys, it's still, well, the NHL and the pros and don't you want to play at the NHL? And don't you want to play Division 1? And don't you want to? Don't you want to? Don't you want it? It's like, what are we doing? What are we doing? Like, that's not. Maybe they don't wanna, maybe they don't wanna. And that's completely okay.
Mike Bonelli [13:41 - 15:37]: It's such an odd thing because if you really, you know, if your only goal was to produce a professional athlete, you would do everything different than what we do. But so, because, you know, it's like, you know, because, because it's, it's just, you know, when I, and this is where I think I have the biggest issue or concern or sadness about where we are in youth sports now. All the athletes we talk to from a certain generation, especially on the show, because it's really opened us up to talking to so many different types of people and backgrounds and the way they developed for many, many, many years, it was, you've got to play multi sport. You have to be just playing for the fun of it, for the love of it, the unprofessionals. But what's happening now, which I'm seeing in like the last eight years, is that that that ability for a player to do all those things is squeezing out. But yet the, I don't even know if it's the best players, I guess. And Vinnie, maybe you could speak to us a little bit. It is it just the kids that survive that environment that end up getting to the highest level as opposed to opening it up to all the kids that could get to the highest level. And is that. And then we talk about the mental piece of that and the physical strain of that and then the ability to say, well, I, I, we didn't expose our kids to anything else but this, you know, and it's the same in soccer and in tennis and in equestrian. Like, it seems like we're all going down this road, that every parent is a evaluating professional and could say that their 8 year old is going to become this. And if you take a hundred kids, you're going to get one, I guess, maybe to become a professional and. But then that's the person we use as our example. And to me, it's just. It's just so hard to talk to families about that because the only one they're talking about is the one.
Coach VinnyMalts [15:38 - 19:07]: Bingo. Bingo. And Mike, you nailed it. Where the challenge that I found through the years with this. That's funny. I actually, actually cut this, like, random. Sometimes I'll do these, like, raw takes and just kind of go into it. Maybe I'll post it, maybe I won't. But it was kind of like along those lines of the biggest issue we're dealing with is that we keep wanting to compare ourselves to that top player. As players are coming up, so they see the top player and now it's like, oh, I got to try that. What does that player do? What are they doing? So the modeling effect that everybody talks about, I've got to model their behavior and what people are not recognizing about the truth of it. Those players are not modeling anybody. They're just being who they are. So, you know, I came up, you know, I. I was really fortunate that came up doing east coast selects years ago, right? So I did it for about 12 years and I went through a couple rotations. I had Ivan Provrov, Daniel sprung, Zegris, right. I had them for four years as young, young men. 10, 11, 12, 13, you know, 14. All those, like, time formative years. And it was wild to watch that these were the top dogs when they were younger like that. And how when they would play, the things that they were doing is just the stuff they were doing. They like, prov. Love to train like a maniac all the time. Sprung the same way. They just loved it. Like, it was like to them breathing to go out and do it. You know, same thing with secrets. Like, it was just like a. To work on my skills all the time from a young age. They just love doing that. You didn't have to tell them. You go try that. You didn't have to say, you know what, we're going to go do this clinic and we're going to go sign up for this. We're going to make sure you do all the stuff because we got to get you at that level. None of them were trying. They were just like breathing going and waking up and going out. And I'm like, I'm going to go do that today because that's just what I want to do. They weren't chasing anybody. Everybody was chasing them. And unfortunately, you know, or fortunately, whatever you want to call it is now there's way more of those players that are legit like, that are just doing their thing. And there's better resources now to allow them to explore their thing even deeper and become even better at it. But then there's all these other people that are, like, watching them and going, like, modeling, go, oh, if I want to play at that level, that's what I need to do. And it's like, you don't get it. It's natural to them. They're not doing anything. They're not trying anything. They're just being who they are. You, in fact, are trying. So you're. By trying to catch up, you'll never catch them because they're not trying. They're just doing and being. And that is so hard for so many families to recognize that, like, so much of our work, of what we do is I'm battling for Mike all the time. And you appreciate this is. What do you naturally do? How do you naturally think? How do you instinctively process the world? And let's build on that so you don't have to try so hard anymore. And that is completely counterintuitive to what people think this is right. And unfortunately, with the business and information age and all this stuff, and we all know there's the actors that are out there, and some of them are good. They have good intentions. But what they're not recognizing is nature, that you're not going to science this kid or this family into doing something that they don't have spirit attached to. If they don't have that spiritual law of that's just breathing. To me, I just. That's how I came out of the womb. I'm just designed for this. If that isn't in them, in today's world, with the amount of resources now and identifying who has it, you're not catching those guys.
Mike Bonelli [19:07 - 20:20]: Yeah. I think it's funny that you. When you. When you say that, I mean, most of the kids that I work with now are always trying to get to the same place as the kids they're going after. And I'm like, well, if you continue on their path, which you don't even know which path they're taking because they're just taking, like, then you can't ever catch up. You're. Oh. Like, you could do the exact same training program as the kids that are better than you, but you actually have to do something different. Like, you have to find Your way you have to find. And it might not be. Or, you know, and I guess the example I'll use and parents certainly don't love this is like, you either will find that way or you won't. And if you don't, it just. It just is what it is. You like, you're. I love that. I love that the. The. The visualization of the spiritual piece of that you're finding who you are, not who that guy is. And I gotta find out that guy's spirit because I don't know what he's thinking. I don't know what is it in heart. I don't know why he is motivated or she is motivated to get up and work out in the morning. And I have a whole group other parents saying, well, Mike, I. I'm working with two Division X, Division 1 hockey dads right now and their sons and the ant. The question's always like, well, Mike, how do I get. How do I get so and so to get up and go to the shooting room? Or how do I go get so and so to work on the nutrition?
Lee MJ Elias [20:20 - 20:22]: How do I get them to work harder?
Coach VinnyMalts [20:22 - 20:23]: Yeah. I'm like, yeah.
Mike Bonelli [20:25 - 20:33]: I said, think about it. How many times did your dad drag you out of bed to go to practice? Said, nothing. I never did it. I said, well, there's your answer right there.
Lee MJ Elias [20:33 - 20:33]: Yeah.
Mike Bonelli [20:33 - 20:53]: And I said, that's. And that's really hard. That's hard for a parent to hear because they think they can. We all think we can. We can navigate the. The. You know, and snowplow that out. Right? Like, we could get them. If we could just get them over that little piece, then they'll find the spark. And it's.
Lee MJ Elias [20:53 - 21:25]: No, it doesn't work that way. You know, I say this a lot. You know, you can't create it. You can help to cultivate it. That. That can be done. That's within your circle of influence. But you cannot created. You know, I'm taking a lot of great notes here. This was one for parents and coaches. This goes so far beyond hockey. Some of the best advice was in this one quote, you gotta meet these kids where they're at. They gotta meet kids where they're at. You can't force them. First off, parents, if you try forcing your kids to do something, you already know what's going to happen. Right, Nate?
Coach VinnyMalts [21:25 - 21:25]: Human nature.
Lee MJ Elias [21:25 - 21:37]: Yeah. You can't do that. And. And here's the other thing too, because I get those questions too, Mike. And yeah, I just spoke to a parent the other week. My kid Just doesn't have that extra level. You know what? I said that's okay.
Coach VinnyMalts [21:37 - 21:38]: Exactly.
Lee MJ Elias [21:39 - 22:25]: That's okay right now. And here's the thing. I hope that they do find it. Odds are they will if they continue to play sports. But it takes a long time to cook a person a hockey player. There are adults that have not found the spark in their lives yet. And again, we put this on our kids. And I always. I always say that, listen, it's okay if you don't find the spark. And the other thing, too, is don't we all say this? Don't compare someone who has the spark. All right? I. I can only speak for myself. I love to practice. I loved it. It wasn't a sacrifice for me to do that. You know, we had Sherry Piper on the show a few weeks back, Olympian gold medalist, and she said, this is so profound of. You know, I'm so tired of hearing people say I had to sacrifice everything. It was a choice I made. I wanted to do it right.
Coach VinnyMalts [22:25 - 22:26]: Right.
Lee MJ Elias [22:26 - 22:29]: If you're sacrificing in your mind. I don't.
Coach VinnyMalts [22:29 - 22:29]: I don't.
Lee MJ Elias [22:29 - 22:48]: I don't mean metaphorically. I mean literally. If you're thinking it's a sacrifice for me to have to practice. Yeah, yeah, we'll talk about that a second. It's not right. If you shouldn't have to sacrifice, you should love it. And again, parents, if they don't love it yet, that's fine. This. It also might mean this isn't their thing.
Mike Bonelli [22:49 - 22:49]: All right?
Lee MJ Elias [22:49 - 23:19]: When you see kid pick up an instrument, whatever it is, and they start playing, they're playing it all the time. They love that instrument. That's. They found something there. Now, I will say this from a cultivating point. When they do find that spark, you can explain to them that you can apply that to a lot of different things. All right? Like when I. When I started again writing my first book, it was hockey to me. Starting a podcast, it was hockey to me. That. That's how I justified it in my head. Oh, it's the same work. It's just in a different format.
Coach VinnyMalts [23:20 - 23:20]: Exactly.
Lee MJ Elias [23:20 - 23:35]: But I had to find that before I could even understand what I'm talking about. Yeah. Vinnie just showed, for those of you listening, a great book. It takes what it takes. But again, it. It was never a sacrifice. The sacrifice to me would have been not doing it.
Coach VinnyMalts [23:35 - 23:36]: Bingo.
Lee MJ Elias [23:36 - 23:42]: Right? And not everybody gets there. And I got to say this one more time. That is okay. It's okay.
Coach VinnyMalts [23:42 - 24:52]: Go ahead. No, no. And you guys nailed it. It's a Simple analogy that I always try to like that most players can relate to is I'm like, hey, have you ever, you know, seen a player come out to a skate and you're just like, wow, that player is amazing. Like, oh, my God, how are they not in the NHL? Like, they're unbelievable. I can't believe they're not in the NHL. And then you see another player and you're like, oh, my God, how's that player in the NHL? I can't believe it. Like, that's incredible. Like, oh. Like, they're not that good. And the differentiator is this, is that that player realized, you know what? I'm okay with chipping pucks. I'm okay with doing that. No problem. And blocking shots. I will do that for a living. I. Yes. Whatever it takes, I will do it, and I'm all in and I will commit to that. And so what they did was they cleared away the noise of all the. But I got to be a goal scorer and I got to dangle people and I got to go work on my one on one Instagram hands and do everything, and I got to beat cones one on one. Because that's what hockey is. What they aligned with and they realized was, wait, no, that's what I'm going to commit to. I want to be a professional, so I'm willing to do whatever skill set is going to get me into being a professional.
Lee MJ Elias [24:52 - 24:53]: Right?
Coach VinnyMalts [24:53 - 25:28]: Whereas now it's. You're trying to do all the skill sets, you're trying to become everything at once. And that is what messes up so many people, is that is not even the way anything works. Like, you think about how you became, right, how any of us became who we became. It's because we just kept doing stuff reiterating. You get fired from here, you did this here and then, but you just keep on this path. And then eventually, like you guys said, eventually, you end up in a place where, okay, I chose to be dear or, well, I got no other choice because it's what life gave me.
Mike Bonelli [25:28 - 27:21]: Yeah, most of these guys I'm working with now, right? Especially like the 17, 16, 17, 18 year olds. We don't even work on the things they're bad at. We really work on the stuff they're good at. And I'm like, well, because I can't help. Like, I can't. I can't change this about you. I mean, I could, but you'd have to, you know, you need a couple dollars and. And you have to not play hockey, like, in A formalized setting for a year. Like, yes. Could it be done? Like, well, maybe not. Right. Tim Tebow couldn't do it. Like, it's just, you can. Only because it's ingrained in your, in your DNA. But I think to your point, yeah, like, and I think we underscore, we just did that episode rightly on, on, you know, the, the underappreciated defenseman. Yeah. It's just because not everybody has to be a first line centerman. And I think what happens is people don't, you know, I, I, Vinny, we work a lot with Mike Weaver and I do a camp with him. And one of the things we talk about all the time is like, listen, I was just a great puck eating defenseman that got the puck out of the zone. I did my job every time, you know, you. And we were laughing like, if there was a, if there was a, a third assist in the NHL, I would have led the league because nobody saw the play at the, at the goal line. Nobody saw the chip out to center ice. But to your point, this is where I think as, as coaches for youth level, certainly the ability to take a 6 to a 10 year old and expose them to all of those things. We don't know. We got to find it. But at some point you have to start leaning on and being advised on the fact that you're good at this. Embrace it, use it and then, and then go with it and then try to learn all the other aspects of what you can do to support this, this great piece of your game. Mentally, physically, you know, knowing the game, hockey iq, figuring all that out around the skill set you currently have, as opposed to always trying to chase the skill set that you want, that you won't get.
Coach VinnyMalts [27:21 - 29:02]: You just. Mike, that was beautiful. You nailed it. What an opportunity in youth that, what if we, instead of focusing in on when the kids are younger, like, you need to be better at this because your bias is what you think the model is, that exists as a generality that everyone needs to do that as opposed to, and a lot of coaches fall into this negativity because of that. I'm so frustrated. They're making mistakes. Right. They get these biases, but you're not perfect. You're not doing it as opposed to, you know, what, oh, you created that shot that we talked about that you're so good at creating that play. You, you did it. Good job. Keep doing it. So you, you took away all the other constraints that you think the kid should be doing and now you're Focusing on seeing. Oh, good, you're doing the thing that you're naturally good at, that we've talked about that I'm encouraging in you, in that belief system, and now I see you're actually doing it. I love it. This is awesome. Now it solves the problem of negativity. Now you're feeling good that you're participating with this player. You're developing them, you're increasing that. And oh, by the way, spiritually, you're keeping yourself from going insane because it's a kid that just doesn't quote, unquote, listen. But now you're taking what they naturally do and they don't even have to try. You're just building upon that layer, how much easier it is for you to now enjoy the process of coaching 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, even 13. Like I get when they start to get older, high school, it's what it is. But the younger levels, 100% spot on of teaching more of that lens and recognizing focus on that. Because all the other stuff, if you're there skating, shooting, the general stuff, if you're already at that level, that means you have a general baseline that's good enough to be at that level.
Lee MJ Elias [29:02 - 31:27]: You know, I gotta bring this up too, as a. I've been blessed to coach it almost every level, especially youth. And it blows my mind sometimes what I see at the youth level. In fact, we're going to have a pretty good conversation here. I. I assume some of these clips we're about to make from this are going to go a little viral because we're going to be outspoken. But things like this, you know, when I, When I coach tenu, right. There's so much emphasis from people on our record and I, I cannot tell you our record. I have an idea what it is, but I, I don't care. And I'm. I'm with a team right now where I can say with confidence, this team, these players have all developed more than, than probably any other team in the organization. It's not a shot at any other team, but, man, what a win. And I'm looking at, like, everyone has, has improved in some way, right? Whether it's mentally, skill wise, physically, and I love coaching them and like, that's such a win to me. Right? But a lot of it comes down to what you're saying, Vinnie and Mike, of, well, let's see what you excel at. So something, something I do and I gotta, I gotta make sure I preface this. I never do this at the start of the season. What I'M about to say, okay, this is something that evolves as the season goes on. But as we. We're approaching the end of season now, we're able to start explaining the importance of roles. That you are not locked into a role, but at this point of the season, hey, you're excelling at this. And this helps this player with this. And we've actually pointed out these players are. Are goal scorers. Doesn't mean you guys can't score. Okay? These players are a goal scorer. They like to score. They have a talent for scoring. Who's going to be a great playmaker? Who's Mike, to your point? The D. We need to make that good first pass. D. You're doing great at that first pass. We're just identifying small things that each kid does good to try and help the team succeed. And I gotta preface this again, because I don't want people to lose. What I'm saying here, it's not about creating roles on the first day and think it's now we're seeing what's working. Let's emphasize that you have a role on this team, even if you're not getting a hat trick every. Every game. Defense. We just said defense. That first pass, so important. Wingers, you know, your ability to get that puck out of our zone or get it to the center. So important you have a role. Right. I don't think any player wants to hear your role is just not to be a liability the whole game. All right? And don't get me wrong, but although.
Mike Bonelli [31:27 - 31:53]: If that is your role, then a good price will hide that role. Like, be able to find a way for you to not think that. Like, so the bottom line like that. And that's. But you're, you know, you're hitting it on the head. Like, where we're not defining kids, they're defining themselves. Like, I'm not defining you. These are the realities I'm working with here. So let's now enhance who you can be for this team now.
Lee MJ Elias [31:53 - 31:53]: Yeah.
Mike Bonelli [31:53 - 32:49]: Is that going to be you next year? I don't know. It all depends on what you do. But I think that's where. Like, as you and Vinnie, can you talk about this a little bit? Because this is my. Because I know you're in the youth hockey world now, but working from, like, as a pro level where it's cutthroat and it's a job to now getting down to a younger level and telling a parent, okay, this is. We're not gonna be. We're not gonna professionalize your 8 year old. But these are the realities of who your 8 year olds are and who they can be. And how do I, you know, how do I put you in a situation? To Lee's point, you're not putting you in a box. But if you worry about scores, if you worry about records, if you worry about all the other things that are happening, my hockey rankings, if you worry about all those other things that are happening around you, you're, You're. I can't. It's hard for me to do anything for your son or daughter.
Coach VinnyMalts [32:49 - 33:42]: Right? Exactly. Well, so two things come to mind, guys, right off the bat, right. Of that process. So number one is, you know, Leo, of everything you explained was proof of concept, right? Like, what happens is we start the year blank slate. But as the leaders, as the professionals, right, that are working with your child, educate in the space, understand how development works. I need to see the proof of concept. So a lot of times players or families think, hey, I'm a goal scorer. And one of my favorite questions to always ask players that, you know, come on board with us down the line, they're 16, 17 years old, they fill out the assessment, all that stuff. And, you know, their identity is they say their goal score. And the first question I'll ask, oh, how many goals have you had in the last three years? Just tell me the overall, how many goals have you had in the last three years? And they like, 15 to 20. I'm like, you're not a goal scorer. I didn't need anything. Like, you're not a goal score right off the bat. 15 to 20 in three years, you're not a goal scorer.
Lee MJ Elias [33:43 - 33:43]: Right.
Coach VinnyMalts [33:43 - 33:59]: So it's clearly identifying proof of concept that, you know, I understand you love your child, and we all love your child. But the nature, if you're not instinctively doing and creating, we're not trying to ruin your kid. We're just looking at. There's no proof in the pudding.
Lee MJ Elias [33:59 - 33:59]: Right? Right.
Coach VinnyMalts [33:59 - 34:47]: And it brings it back to, you know, concepts in neuroscience too. What happens first there's sensation, then there's perception. You feel the thing. Right. That's why I play for that feeling. I always talk about, like, you feel the thing, right? And then you perceive the thing. So what we're all experiencing is we're feeling it out, we're watching, we're observing, we're learning, okay, what do you naturally. What's the tendency? And then once we can clearly identify that now to elevate that you now, as a leader, your job is to communicate that clearly and that's the second thing, is that we don't do a good enough job of over communicating, over explaining. Right. Like we think, because we told a player, and I deal with this all the time at all the levels of where, oh, yeah, I talked to that player about it, they're good. You think one time talking to that player, they're good. Not a chance.
Lee MJ Elias [34:47 - 34:48]: Yeah.
Coach VinnyMalts [34:48 - 35:23]: And at the youth level, that requires even more attention and care is like, I'm going to say to you the first time, I'm going to articulate what I think ahead of time of, hey, so here's what's going on, guys, right now. Here's the phase that we're in. I'm going to watch the players. We're not going to do roles just yet, but as time goes on, I'm going to clearly identify to you and I'll more than willing to share some time with you to explain to you how I came to that conclusion. So you can see it, too. So you can see, like there's just a natural order that you're going to watch. And if your child's not doing these things, I'm not pegging them. I'm trying to elevate what I naturally see them doing.
Lee MJ Elias [35:23 - 35:44]: It's such a great point and, you know, just even add more kind of parental perspective on this. Right. I have coached kids who value goal scoring as the only thing that matters in the game. And it is so hard for them to evolve as a player if that's all they see. Because a. They look, they may not have this skill or here. Yeah. Mentally. Right.
Coach VinnyMalts [35:44 - 35:45]: Communicate. Yeah.
Lee MJ Elias [35:45 - 37:19]: Well, I'm about to dive into that because you did a great video on that. In. In. We must take the time as coaches to sit that player down and say, look, if you want to work on your scoring, I let. Yeah, let's work on it. But you were so much more than that. There's so much more to the game than that. Right. We have to try different aspects. You know, one story I always like telling people, and it's funny because I didn't realize this when I was a youth athlete that I was doing this, but I started really late. And so, like, scoring was not a thing for me early on. I was. I hadn't developed those skills, but I realized pretty quickly, Vinnie, man, I'm pretty good at passing. And so I really dove into becoming a playmaker. And, you know, it's funny, I would, when I got older, I'd go to coaches and say, well, I'm more of a playmaker you know, I really enjoy passing. I didn't realize how much coaches loved hearing that because they have their goal scorer, and now they're hearing, oh, I've got a guy that might be passing to the goal scorer. Nobody passes. And I was. I would get picked for teams because of that. And it wasn't bragging. It was. No, I love passing. I love making the big pass that creates the goal. I wouldn't have known that if I didn't have the flexibility to learn that. I also wouldn't have known that if I probably started earlier because I had to figure out what to do to survive at that age. Now, staying on what you're talking about, Vinnie, you did a great video early this year about the need for clarity and why it's important to take the time to do that. But you also spoke about social clarity. All right. Which you're diving into a little bit now. Can you explain to the audience what that is? And probably that probably is the next evolution, I think, in coaching, a lot of it has to do with the age group and the technology they've been exposed to, but we must have more social clarity in the game.
Coach VinnyMalts [37:20 - 39:25]: So I'll give you guys simple examples from the professionals that I've dealt with so families can actually see the long game of what happens when you don't have that. So one player in particular I had, right. Play for the Devils at one point, all that stuff, you know, then went out to Europe. And so we're having this talk, and he's already, at this point, you know, 26. So he's. He's been around for a while, and we start diving into his process. So initially, we always work on how do you interpret information, how do you work on right now? So we go through everything. Okay, cool. He's working. We've been working together about three years at this point. So he's hammering away. He's got his own process. Okay. Now I know my habits, how I need to play, how I need to develop my game in the summers. I got it all down. Beautiful. Well, then he starts evolving in his process, and what happens is, as he's out there, he's having trouble playing with some of these players on his. On the power play. You know, he's one of the leaders on the team, and he's really struggling with him. So ask him a simple question. I go, well, all right, number one, are you having dialogue with those players about what you're thinking? Sometimes, a little bit, yeah. Like, I'd say, probably. Okay, great. So you're having some dialogue about what you're thinking. Great, awesome. So tell me about that. And so he kind of lays it out. I'm, yeah, we talk about this and what we want to do here. Like, awesome. Is there any constraint that you're dealing with with one of the players that you're dealing with that you keep telling over and over again the same thing and they're not adapting to it? And I goes, yeah, no, there's one guy. Oh, boom. Right away, his face said it. All right. It was like, just like that trigger moment. I'm like, okay, so you have a choice to make. You either A, keep doing the same thing and getting mad about what's happening, or, Or B, you adapt to that player's behavior. You're going to have to adapt to what they do. So you're going to study what they do, understand what they do, and now you're going to build around what you do, around the fact that you just know this is their limitation and this is how they're going to perceive that situation on the flank, on the power player areas. Like, you're now going to have to say, I know they're going to do this, so I'm either going to adapt my position on what I do or. Or I'm going to keep getting angry that they're not doing what I want them to do.
Lee MJ Elias [39:25 - 39:26]: Right? That's ego.
Coach VinnyMalts [39:26 - 40:08]: Ego. And so that's. The social clarity is now, as I've gone down the rabbit hole for years, I'm amazed at the Instagram hands. We laugh about it, right? But the reality is, I'm amazed how you watch these videos. Hockey is a team game, which means that from a mindset perspective, we can sit and, you know, we've talked to us before of like, I see a lot of our peers in the industry have hammered way out when you hear the way they talk, it's all individualized, right? It's all about, you know, you go out, this is what you're going to do around the cone and go score, or these are the tools of what you need to do to breathe or visualize and blah, blah, all these things. And I'm amazed. I'm amazed how you're not including, well, what does your teammate think?
Lee MJ Elias [40:08 - 40:08]: Right?
Coach VinnyMalts [40:08 - 41:03]: What does your coach think? What does the opponent think? Like, if you're not putting in the other variables of what everyone else is thinking in your own thought process, you're missing a huge part of all of, if arguably the most important part. So that social clarity we talk about is that Is on you because you're trained in the art to understand. Oh, wait a second. Other people, they don't think about that. Right. Like we just said with the parents, that isn't common knowledge. It's not something yet that is a part of. Oh, that makes sense. We should be talking like that. So you have to infuse that into going to talk to your teammate and recognizing either a. Through discussion. Okay, we're having a good discussion and they're adapting to what we're doing. Or while we talk about it and they say, yeah, yeah, but they don't do. So you know what? I'm gonna stop getting upset. They don't do it. I'm gonna just do what they do and keep building off of that. Because that's just. I'm all good with it.
Lee MJ Elias [41:03 - 41:04]: Yeah.
Coach VinnyMalts [41:04 - 41:13]: Social clarity. Like, you have to gain. What are the participating parties around you? What do they think? Then build your schema and build your plan out.
Lee MJ Elias [41:13 - 42:31]: And I also say, too. And this is one for adults too. This isn't just for kids. You gotta take yourself out of your own little story a little bit. Right. And. And this is baseline consciousness. But there's other. There's 8 billion thoughts going on on the planet. Take yourself out of your mind a little bit. And when I think about. And Mike, I know you've seen this too, at the younger, younger ages. Now, something I'm seeing that is different is the inability to communicate. And I think we know where it comes from. You know, it comes from screens. What's funny, though, is when I see two kids playing fortnites with headsets on, there's incredible communication on the fortnite. But we have had to teach our kids. And this. This sounds really. It's gonna sound really funny to people, but we've had to really explain to our kids that, hey, when the goalie makes a big save, you should let him know he made a big save or she made a big save, or when your buddy makes a good play, you should communicate. That's the baseline. Right. Then it's other things too. Like I said, a player down. This was actually really interesting. I had a. A fourth grader and a second grader, and I. It was a situation. I could have coached them, but I actually said to the fourth grader, I want you to sit down with her and just explain what you would like her to do with you on the ice. And I remember that he looked back.
Coach VinnyMalts [42:31 - 42:32]: He looked back at me on the.
Lee MJ Elias [42:32 - 43:15]: Bench like, what do I say? I said, say whatever you want to say. I don't, I don't want to tell you what to say, but explain. And, you know, he started to talk to her and he started to say, well, you know, I'm going to do this. And I think you should do this. Those are the coaching gifts we can give these kids if we're just. If there's a great book, you know, telling a training right. All right. If we're always telling them what to do. You're going to create robots. And Mike, you know what? That's the problem with high level hockey nowadays is the hockey IQ is not there and they're just doing what they're told. The creativity starts young and with social clarity, what we're talking about, we've got to teach that. All right? And yes, it can be very frustrating. The younger you go, I think the more frustrating it gets.
Coach VinnyMalts [43:15 - 43:15]: Oh, yeah.
Lee MJ Elias [43:15 - 43:30]: To. You know, if you ever been to a mic game, I mean, I, you know what I say, Vi, I'll throw this back to you guys. I always say to coaches, if you're doing play by play on the bench, you're not coaching. All right? If the puck's gotta go there, pucks shoot, shoot. Like you're doing play by play.
Coach VinnyMalts [43:30 - 43:30]: Don't, don't do.
Lee MJ Elias [43:31 - 43:31]: You're not coaching.
Coach VinnyMalts [43:31 - 43:32]: Exactly right.
Lee MJ Elias [43:32 - 43:58]: And it's hard. Coaches, listen, Mike. Coaches, God bless you. It's hard. Okay? I've seen it. Unless you're at my aaa, we'll get in that in a minute. But I wanted to get your thoughts on that, guys, because we do need to, as coaches and parents, encourage our kids to have those conversations. I don't see as many kids on the street anymore just playing hockey outside. They're not doing that nowadays. We can't force them to do it. Going back to what I said earlier, but we can encourage those types of conversations.
Coach VinnyMalts [43:59 - 45:35]: Bingo. Nailed it. So a couple things right away pop out, right? Number one, your Fortnite example, the thing I'm always fighting for is how do we create a natural alignment instead of doing it in our own interpretation of how to present information. How do we get to the players levels to present the information? So to your point, Fortnite, and this is an idea, and maybe you guys run with this. Mike, you guys put this together, right? I'm like, I'm shocked how nobody's put together yet a Fortnite style or a game where they're gonna sit and play the hockey game together and they're all going to communicate. So they learn now how to sit on this game like the same way. They do already. They already do that. So create a game that's set up, designed, where they're playing together and the rules are they're going to talk about the game and where they need to go. So now they're just naturally. Communication. Yeah. Of how to do that. Right. And so that's number one, is how are we creating the conditions to naturally allow them to practice these things instead of us as leaders and adults. Right. Because we're all guilty of it. Right. In our own way, of course. Like we. This is the way to do it. But the reality is, the art is. Hold on. How do we get them to do it without them knowing they're doing it? Right. Like the pack skates and all that stuff. Right. It's like, wow. One on one, keep away. Oh, my God. I can't believe how hard that was. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I was skating them. Really? It looked like they were doing one on. No, no, I was skating them instead of up and down. I'm just going to have them one on one, keep away, and they're going to love it. And that was our skating. So that's. That's the first, you know, part of the art. Right on that end. And then, you know, the other part to that, from a communication standpoint, that's challenging what you're saying there.
Lee MJ Elias [45:35 - 45:35]: Right.
Coach VinnyMalts [45:35 - 45:53]: On the bench. As an example, the thing I'm always battling for with the kids. So, like, simple stuff, Right. I put up a video about this a while back, but what I'm trying to infuse with them is, and I talk to the coaches about this all the time is that there's. We don't. We can't coach them on the bench. There's nothing that's going to happen that's going to go on the game. All we can do is go, let them play. Right.
Mike Bonelli [45:53 - 45:54]: But what we can do on the.
Coach VinnyMalts [45:54 - 46:15]: Bench is create chance. So, like, I'll do things like, move your feet. I move your feet. Move your feet. So what I'm doing is getting them. Just think about getting excited about cheering on the bench. Move your feet. All I'm doing is creating little mantras for them to go and do that. Right. Yeah. Move the puck. Move the puck.
Lee MJ Elias [46:15 - 46:15]: Right.
Coach VinnyMalts [46:15 - 46:26]: So it's. I'm having fun on the bench with them, and sometimes they're into it, sometimes they're not. Right. They're kids. Some days it's like, yeah, let's go. Other days they could care less. Yes. Yeah. You know, like, we have them sometimes chanting, you know, I'm an Eagles fan, so fly, Eagles, fly.
Lee MJ Elias [46:27 - 46:30]: I had to get one in, you know, so.
Coach VinnyMalts [46:30 - 47:12]: So you're always trying to find ways to infuse where I'm doing the Eagles chant, because I know I want them to chant to move your feet at another point. So it's a lot of this stuff, right? That it's like, how do we meet them where they are, but create these opportunities for them to think it's cool. Oh, this is fun. Instead of infusing it the way the adults in the room think, this is the way it's supposed to be done. It's like, they don't care about doing it that way. We do. We want to be able to sit right in our rooms and go, like, that's a great idea. Oh, I love that idea. That's all. Good job. No, no, no, thank you. No, no, no, thank you. No, no. That's awesome. What about the kids? This is corny. Like, this sucks. And it's like, no, what are you talking about? You. You think I suck. It's like, Bud, you're 45 years old.
Lee MJ Elias [47:12 - 48:39]: Relax all you go. You know, it's been known in might hockey from time to time, munchkins to end up in a locker room after a game. It's funny you're bringing this up, buddy, because with my daughter's, I told them, if you want to earn the donuts, you got to skate hard. And so the. The. The mantra is donuts on the bench, we yell donuts. If we yell donuts, they skate harder. It's like, that's their connection. Point of like, oh, yeah, donut. I like donuts. I wish that worked in. In adulthood life, we just. And everybody would work harder. But it's a good point. Look, you're also tapping on something, too. It's. It's got to be fun for the kids at that age. You want to coach a kid out of hockey, make it not fun. All right, look, competing can be fun, too. I'm just saying you got to find a way to make it fun for them, all right? At the end of the day, speaking of that, you did another great video about competitive cauldron. I want to get into that. So the term compete level is becoming more and more prevalent in sports, especially in youth sports. I've been hearing a lot more lately in the social spheres. I'd love to define really what that is, because I think when we say, hey, you got to raise your compete level to kids, I'm not sure they really understand that. And then again, the competitive Cauldron idea is something I saw in one of your videos. It's a great way to effectively deliver that at a practice. Right. Because, guys, we can say anything. Well, you gotta find the fire. I mean, it's. I'm not against saying things like that, but, like, if they don't know what that means.
Coach VinnyMalts [48:39 - 48:39]: No.
Lee MJ Elias [48:40 - 48:42]: What are they gonna do if. And you got to practice this stuff, too.
Mike Bonelli [48:42 - 48:43]: Go ahead.
Coach VinnyMalts [48:43 - 48:58]: Nailed it. And like you guys said earlier, right. The issue we're dealing with is when we came up, right. All of us in our own way. I played streets of Philadelphia roller hockey and street hockey for six, seven hours a day. I didn't see my parents.
Lee MJ Elias [48:58 - 48:58]: Yeah.
Coach VinnyMalts [48:58 - 49:11]: Like, until the ball fell under the light. You're going to sewer. You're trying to get it out. You're pissed for an hour. That said. All right, it's dark. I'll get. In the morning. We play, play, play. Now these kids are so structured with everything.
Lee MJ Elias [49:11 - 49:11]: Yeah.
Coach VinnyMalts [49:11 - 49:35]: They've got multiple practices a week. They've got the piano lesson. They've got tutoring. They've got so many things going on that the delay, delineation of, well, what do you mean? Compete and go hard when my whole day is already hard. As a human being, there is no time to create, to just be, go out, enjoy, be a kid. Everything is like that. And that goes against the grain of a child's nature.
Lee MJ Elias [49:36 - 49:36]: Right.
Coach VinnyMalts [49:36 - 49:36]: 100.
Lee MJ Elias [49:37 - 49:37]: Right.
Coach VinnyMalts [49:37 - 50:19]: And we can get into philosophical about education a lot, but, like, to put these kids in seats and then they spend the whole day, cognitively speaking, they're drained. So from a working hard standpoint, they're already working and competing super hard already all day to not. To stay still, to not freak out. They're trying to hold it on because, Mommy and Dad, I want to make sure you're happy. I want to make sure coach is happy, and I want to make sure the world isn't upset with me because, you know, I'm not doing what I'm supposed to do between 4 and 5 o'clock, 6 and 7 o'clock, 8 and 9 o'clock. Like, so that's one of the first issues, is that how do you teach that compete part when for us, the way we bias compete, we have freedom to explore when we were younger. What freedom do they have now?
Lee MJ Elias [50:19 - 50:19]: Right.
Coach VinnyMalts [50:19 - 51:45]: So in their minds, when you say compete. Well, to the point we made earlier, that natural thing of, like, let's go out and win and go, all that stuff, the ball players, quote, unquote, they still have that. That's in Them naturally, like, no matter how much you throw their way, they're still going to want to feel that. But now we're trying to infuse that to everybody else who in their minds are like, what do you mean by that? And the reality is, when you have so much going on, there's no space to even feel what that is. And to your point, guys, like, what the competitive cauldron solves is they're used to gaming. So if you create a gaming environment where they're playing and they're getting points and they're feeling all that, now, you're replicating the feeling of compete. So now it's easy for them to do it because now they can recognize, oh, it's like playing Mario Kart. It's like playing these games, you get points and tokens. Oh, cool. So there's an association that comes with. Oh, I see what you mean. So it's a lot of that stuff, right, that we just. We have to recognize that we try to infuse compete. But they already are competing, right? They're competing against their own cognitive nature of, like, this is boring. I can't stand. This is so hard to do. And I'm fighting like crazy. And then it's like, then you want them to do more. And it's like, cognitively speaking, they're drained. What do you mean you want them to do more practice? Coaches are the same way. What, are we kidding? How many coaches have multiple jobs? And you go to the week and you're exhausted and you want the same output and you're like, you're an adult. You're a professional adult, and you're exhausted.
Lee MJ Elias [51:45 - 51:45]: Right.
Mike Bonelli [51:45 - 51:47]: You think the kids are feeling right?
Lee MJ Elias [51:47 - 51:49]: Right. Go ahead, Mike.
Mike Bonelli [51:49 - 55:03]: No, no, I'm just. I'm just. I'm just thinking about, you know, how we structure those youth hockey practices. When I say youth hockey, I mean, I'm probably. Probably like 14 and under. Basically, like where before it's really structured where you have to, you know, a lot of people feel that pressure of, you know, compete level is understanding a system or a forecheck or things like that. But the. But at the youngest levels, I think the compete level. And you bring up a great point, I think that parents and coaches really need to understand is these kids all day are working all day, they're thinking, they're being told what to do, where to be, what, what, you know, unless they're in some great outdoor finish, you know, educational system, like, then they're. They're in a. They're in a Desk and they're in a, they're in a line and they're in a, you know, in that structure. I think that's why like for me it's so important when I run these youth hockey practices or I go visit a youth hockey group. Every drill or every activity is a compete activity. It's all about a win, a loss and a small number that's shortened in, in time. And if it like the deal, you know the, the, the, the structure of if you're an 8 year old, you, your, your drill or game should be eight minutes, nine minutes max. That's it. And they compete the hell out of it. And I think, but you know, you, and you said it earlier, like if I have a kid in a four station practice and I have four great coaches, matter of fact, I don't even need four great coaches. I just need four competent dads and moms that can understand a lesson plan and if they can just coordinate my tag compete drill, my ring, get one on one compete drill, my, you know, my little pony drill and my other drill in the corner, you know, whatever it might be. And you know, I, and I do that. I got like, you know what you were saying earlier, Vinny? Like I name all my drills for my youth kids after things that are happening in their real life. Like Fortnite stuff and you know, all these different NHL 25 like guys imagine you're this kid and this is what you're doing, but you're competing. There is a winner and a loser. I think that's important. But it doesn't matter if they win or lose. Like so the, the what matters is you tried and then what you can do if you're a good coach is now I could say, well I like the way Vinnie and Lee competed, but I bet you Vinnie and Mike would be more comparable to each other. And that compete level is going to raise. There's not always going to be Lee winning all the time. Like, I don't know. That's not competing. Lee winning all the time. That's not competing. It's, it's coach Vinnie and Mike are competing and they. Sometimes Mike wins, sometimes Vinny wins. Now you start to see these kids elevate. I think when our coaches start to get out of the line drill mode and the structure mode and the, the it looks like a hockey drill but your kids are like, like the worst. I think the most painful thing for me as a coach is when a kid comes up and says is this practice almost over, like brutal. And I, and I It really bothers me. Like, it. It breaks me inside from. In contrast to the kids that says, oh, my God, it's over already. Like, I can't believe that ended. Like, what. What happened? I just got out here.
Lee MJ Elias [55:03 - 55:05]: You want him to stay out there forever?
Mike Bonelli [55:07 - 55:22]: An hour and a half. I know. You're saying you just got out here. Yeah, we've been out here an hour and a half, guys. Because they. There was no lines, no waiting, no lectures. They're just, go, go, go, go, go. If they learned anything, I have no idea. All I know is they beat the hell out of each other.
Lee MJ Elias [55:22 - 55:22]: Yeah.
Mike Bonelli [55:22 - 55:23]: And they. They were competing.
Lee MJ Elias [55:23 - 55:24]: Well.
Coach VinnyMalts [55:24 - 55:27]: Yeah. You nailed it, Mike. I'm like, just one thing.
Lee MJ Elias [55:27 - 55:28]: You're good. You're good.
Mike Bonelli [55:28 - 55:28]: Yeah.
Coach VinnyMalts [55:28 - 55:50]: And it's backed up by gaming research, too, right? I'm sure you guys have come across as of like, the kids, they'll play, play, play. Boom. And they're so good at. Oh, I died in the game. It's over. Start again. So there's. They're so good to bouncing back because it's shown, like, you know, people make the argument about, oh, there's killing in games. On to them. They don't look at it that way. They just look at us. Go hard. They're freaking out.
Mike Bonelli [55:50 - 56:06]: Yeah. I used to do a whole coaching seminar on one of my. One of my sticks was, like, during a session. Want your kids to stop playing fortnite? Go teach them how to play fortnite. Like, stand over going, that door. What are you, an idiot?
Coach VinnyMalts [56:06 - 56:07]: How do you.
Mike Bonelli [56:07 - 56:11]: How are you. How are you going to get better if you don't understand that the. I don't know fortnite. So I'm using.
Lee MJ Elias [56:11 - 56:15]: I must be doing something right, because my kid wants me to play fortnite with him all the time.
Mike Bonelli [56:15 - 56:24]: The thing is, you really want your kids to quit fortnite. Start coaching fortnite, like, and start saying. And start saying, if you die, you don't get dinner.
Lee MJ Elias [56:24 - 56:25]: But.
Mike Bonelli [56:27 - 56:36]: The game's over. I'm throw. You're. I can't believe you're wasting my money on this Xbox. You stink. Uni private. Like, imagine Fortnite private. There probably are Fortnite private lessons.
Lee MJ Elias [56:36 - 56:38]: But I'm just saying, there probably are.
Mike Bonelli [56:38 - 56:55]: It's. It's gonna come. But I think it's just if we. If you want. Like, I. I say this to every coach, and some of them get it, the light bulb goes off. But some, like, I don't know what the hell you're talking about, Mike. If you coach the the video games, like, you do hockey. Kids won't play video games, but they also won't do hockey.
Lee MJ Elias [56:55 - 57:15]: I gotta say real quick, because this is one of those classic growing up adulthood things. We're like, well, people get killed in these games, guys. They got killed in the games we played too. Mario died up and fell off the street. They died too. Okay, like. Like, let's not make this right.
Mike Bonelli [57:15 - 57:18]: But there wasn't blood coming out of the plane.
Lee MJ Elias [57:18 - 57:27]: Mortal Kombat. I mean, it was like people. Literally. My God. I mean, I can't imagine. Can you imagine being a parent? Like, my mom or dad coming in, watching a fatality.
Coach VinnyMalts [57:27 - 57:27]: Like, that's cool.
Lee MJ Elias [57:27 - 57:28]: I get to go again.
Coach VinnyMalts [57:28 - 57:31]: It's all the red dye, just sparkling.
Lee MJ Elias [57:32 - 59:24]: My point is, this is one of those things. It's not. That's not new. In fact, if anything, video games have toned it down since I was a kid. But I'll say this too. You know, one of the things. And again, this. I like to give coaches takeaways. One of the things I like to do. I don't do this every practice, but I'd say majority of them. I'll start with some uncoached game, a three on three. Something where the kids get out there and they're playing and competing right away. Because it always elevates whatever the other drills are. Because I'm turning the compete engine on, right? So we do this three on three with. We only have one goalie sometimes put them on the boards. Three on three, two minutes. No coaching. Whoever gets the goals wins the game. You keep score. Another one I do that I love is Hungry Hungry Hippos. And I do this at older ages. Put the pucks in a circle, have them compete to get them. What's cool about that game is, like, there's always a certain amount of pucks. And I can say, if you want to win, you're gonna have to go harder than the other three people playing the game. That's the only way to win. Someone's gonna have to give more. And I'll tell you right now, guys, it coaches, you should audit your drills and ask this question. Which drills do they go the hardest on? I'd say there's a 95 chance. They're the drills where there's a score or a winner and a loser. All right? Because that, by the way, that mimics the game. I mean, that mimics the competition. So the. The idea of that competitive cauldron, Vinnie, which you so awesomely said on social media, was just every drill I Mean or most drills should have some sort of competitive outcome. I know it can't be every drill, right. If you're working on skills, sometimes, you know, you do want to get a little bit in the nitty gritty that that's also good coaching. But create the competitive atmosphere. If you're not doing that and your kids are not having a high compete level in games, I mean you can kind of put one and one together here a little bit. Right. You're not coaching them to compete, you're just coaching them to have skills.
Mike Bonelli [59:24 - 59:47]: Well, and that's, and that's that repetition. If any talked about earlier, like, like the bottom line, it's like, you know, mental repetition, physical repetition. I had a coach come to, you know, Mike, I really need your help. My, my girls, they just, they don't drive to the net. I can't get them to go for rebounds. I go, well. So I watched two practices, said, you know, that not one drill that you offer has them go to the net. Not one. Everyone is a shot from the top of the circle and to the corner line.
Lee MJ Elias [59:47 - 59:53]: I've seen that in semi pro, Mike. I've seen it in semi pro hockey. They don't go for their own rebounds. And it's like, well, no wonder you're.
Mike Bonelli [59:53 - 1:00:11]: Not getting your goalie stinks at rebounds because he never experiences any pressure and your forwards stink at rebounds because they never go to the net. So where. So I think, you know, thinking about that. Right. Thinking about. Because I think most of us as parents and coaches understand the physical hockey component.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:00:11 - 1:00:11]: Right.
Mike Bonelli [1:00:12 - 1:00:16]: But from when you have to, you know, it's not even dumbing it down when you age it down.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:00:16 - 1:00:17]: Yeah.
Mike Bonelli [1:00:17 - 1:00:59]: To youth hockey, like how, how do you instill these little mental cues for kids to use like as a family, like obviously they can't go, oh, let's go all in. You're, you know, we're going to do visualization techniques and you're going to, you know, do, you know, but what, what can a parent do and a coach do to help at the youth level? Like real, you know, tangible bites of information that they can help with their mental game. Because like again, I think, not that we don't want your expertise on the physical piece, but I think most coaches under can they can see a practice and say, oh yeah, well that works, this works. I know how to do this. But, but what can I do to help my kids like build that mental fortitude?
Coach VinnyMalts [1:00:59 - 1:01:52]: Yeah. Love it. Great question. So the simplest tool that you can use. Right. And for those coaches and Leaders that want to dive into parents motivational interviewing. So the idea is that what you're doing with the kids is you're just asking them, hey, you know, what are you going to do today? So with my own son, right. I'll do this when we're going, whether it's soccer or hockey. Right. I'll just ask, hey, so what do you think about today? What are you going to, what are you going to work on today? What are you going to get after and just allow to talk. And then as they're talking, they might bring up, I'm going to skate hard. Oh, that's cool. What are you going to skate hard at? What are you going to do? Like, I don't know. I was like, no, you don't know. Oh, okay, cool. So you're just going to skate hard and is it with the puck? Without the puck. So what I'll do is I'll kind of start to walk through and just add flavors into. To get their schema to go, oh, I didn't consider that. So you build up little by little to allow them to participate in a guided conversation.
Lee MJ Elias [1:01:52 - 1:01:53]: I love that.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:01:53 - 1:02:29]: And then you allow them to talk to you and that's all you care about. All you're doing is that you're questioning, you're prompting. So parents can do that all the time. Like, it's funny how, you know, when I first started out, guys, how often I had issues with high end AAA kids. Parents were asking, 14, 15, 16, they're playing on top five teams. And the parents would ask, you know, when I get in the car after the game, I start freaking out and I start. Want to point out, what can I do? I'm like, it's simple. How'd you play today? What you think went well? And just. That's it, you're done with the conversation. Yeah. And allow them to talk. And if they start to say something that's like, oh, this happened. Okay, well what'd you think about that?
Lee MJ Elias [1:02:29 - 1:02:30]: Right?
Coach VinnyMalts [1:02:30 - 1:02:51]: And, and all you keep driving towards is, what do you think? How did you think about that? And that is so much of the game that the first step that any age can do and build up is just sit there and have, hey, so how, how's the game going to go today? Because that is visualization. That's another form of visualization of by you prompting the kid. No matter what age they are, they're now visualizing their head and they're using their imagination to think about.
Lee MJ Elias [1:02:52 - 1:02:53]: You can Miyagi them into.
Mike Bonelli [1:02:53 - 1:02:58]: You mean not, not Making them walk home a mile with their hockey bag because your imagination.
Lee MJ Elias [1:02:59 - 1:03:02]: I had to do that. I had to do that one time.
Mike Bonelli [1:03:03 - 1:03:03]: I knew.
Lee MJ Elias [1:03:03 - 1:04:02]: Bringing. Bringing this full circle. My dad did do that to me one time, but it's because. Because I was playing Mortal Kombat in. In. In the rink, and he was waiting outside. He just left me there. And that was on me. But I always joke that story with my kids. But no, it's a great point, Vinnie. You know. You know, we always say on the show, the car ride is not for coaching. And I always tell parents, you know, they said, what do I want to talk to them after the game? Then you need to not talk to them after the game for a bit. And I'll tell you right now, more often than not, not all the time, when you don't do that, eventually your kid will say, hey, mom, dad, what did you think of the game today? And that's your opportunity to do what Vinnie's saying and say, well, what. What did you think of the game today? All right, they're not going to want to talk to you if you get in the car and just go, you gotta do this, you gotta do that. You should have hit this, man. I wouldn't want to talk to you. Yeah, right. Right after the game. It's devastating to a kid, number one. And number two, the kid has every right after the game not to think about the game. They have every right to do that, okay? Now, if they want to think about the game, great.
Mike Bonelli [1:04:03 - 1:04:03]: Okay?
Lee MJ Elias [1:04:03 - 1:04:26]: There's nothing wrong with either way of that, but the car ride's not for coaching. And I. I love that you said that's a. That's a step into visualization. Right? Which we. We don't do enough with the kids. And I want to reiterate one more thing you said there, Vinnie, which was, guys, coaches, we have to talk to the kids. You got to talk to these kids and. And get them talking to you. All right? And I've heard before, well, they don't talk back. It's because we don't talk to them. All right, well, I guess.
Mike Bonelli [1:04:26 - 1:04:35]: I guess that's your point, right? When you say mental reps, like when they. When they have to get. When you have to get the. You want to teach visualization without saying it's visualization.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:04:35 - 1:04:36]: Correct.
Mike Bonelli [1:04:36 - 1:04:49]: It's really. Just tell me about that play or tell me about that event or tell me about, like, what you thought you were doing there. And not. Not with no judgment. It's just more like, oh, that was a great that was a great play over there.
Lee MJ Elias [1:04:51 - 1:05:13]: Something I encourage my players to do at every age level. This is not just youth, is. Hey, do me a favor. Bring me two or three questions next practice that you want to. Any question you want. It doesn't have to be about hockey. Just bring me some questions. I mean, 99% of the time, they're about hockey. And they're usually great questions of. I. I don't really know what to do here, man. What a great question for a coach. All right? And I don't go, how do you.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:05:13 - 1:05:14]: Not know what to do with that?
Lee MJ Elias [1:05:14 - 1:05:23]: We've been talking about this for months. It's no ask the question now. A, you've enabled them to think about it. B, you've enabled them to have a voice. C, they've given you an opportunity to coach them.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:05:23 - 1:05:23]: And.
Lee MJ Elias [1:05:23 - 1:05:47]: And D, they're willing to receive because they asked the question. It's a great tactic. It doesn't have to be three. I want every player just to bring me one question. Ask a coach a question. Okay? I mean, you're creating that conversation, all right? And kids should not be afraid to ask their coaches questions. They're not used to it. That's what's happening. Okay, Right there. You.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:05:47 - 1:06:25]: You nailed it, guys. Like, right there. So when I got started, you know, with bloodline, it was, what, like 12 years ago now, one of the key pieces of research that went, aha, bling, bling, bling to me was Harvard had put out. It was like a Gallup. You probably find it online at 85% in the corporate environment that asked at the time, it was like millennials, whatever. It was like, what's the biggest issue that you're having with these kids coming up? And at the top, the biggest percentage was communication and critical thinking. The line's huge, right? And then everything else was smaller right away. That's where my head was. I'm like, well, there it is. Communication, critical thinking. So now how do we create the conditions for them to communicate and critically think?
Lee MJ Elias [1:06:25 - 1:06:26]: Right?
Coach VinnyMalts [1:06:26 - 1:06:34]: That's what our job is like from a mental performance, mindset, whatever you want to call it, is how do we just keep on, okay, let's get them communicating, and let's get them critically thinking about.
Lee MJ Elias [1:06:34 - 1:06:34]: Right?
Coach VinnyMalts [1:06:34 - 1:07:15]: Because if that's the problem, real world problem, we're having, clearly in the data in the corporate world, this is happening everywhere else, right? Of the issue. And so now, to your point, guys, like, that's what I'm always fighting for. And that's when that's the biggest misconception with mental performance. Performance. And Lee, I know you can appreciate this, is that people think it's like this taboo or like. Right, like I said, yoga or my breathing exercise or meditation. And the argument I've made for a while that, you know, with a lot of our peers, that again, coming from a good place, but it doesn't apply in the same way is that we can say you can use the tools to your blow in the face. It's like telling a kid, you know what? Go do lunges and you'll be a better skater.
Lee MJ Elias [1:07:15 - 1:07:15]: Right.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:07:15 - 1:07:24]: And I make the argument. Okay, so what you're saying is if they do lunges, they'll be able to skate well, right? Yes. Yes. No, they're just strengthening their legs. They're not skating.
Lee MJ Elias [1:07:24 - 1:07:25]: Right.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:07:25 - 1:08:10]: In order to skate well, you need to skate. Lunges will help that same thing. Visualization, breathing, meditation, your modality. If there's no schema, if there's no understanding of. Well, I'm going to meditate because it applies to this in the game of these situations that I'm dealing with, to keep me still calm and present. If there's none of that connection in reality, not game seven, Stanley cup, which most of you will never be in. And you're visualizing this idea. No, no. Real world evidence, real world experience tied to the tool. If you're doing that now, you can use these tools in a meaningful way. Let it. The problem that happens in the metal performance field is people hear these tools and they go, how do I apply that doesn't even make sense. And that's the challenge, right, with all this stuff.
Lee MJ Elias [1:08:10 - 1:08:40]: Yeah. Or they've never applied it. And, and again, that's where the stigma comes in. And, and look, we were talking before the show. The. The stigma is largely disappearing more every day. I mean, we're seeing so much more acceptance into the mental performance, mental fitness world to the point that the people that kind of have the stigma, I don't want to say I laugh them off. That's not the right term, but it is kind of like, I mean, look, I hope you find it one day because. Because this is what's happening. This is. This is where we're at today. I'm sorry, Mike, did you have something?
Mike Bonelli [1:08:41 - 1:10:19]: No, I'm just disappointed that I didn't ask all these questions earlier now, but I just, you know, so. But I just, I'm just thinking, like, that's. That's what you're saying. Like, that's that they're like. To me, I don't think It's a stigma. Like when I think of mental health or visualization, I often would, you know, if I'm talking to a parent, it's almost like, oh, you have a prop, like you have a problem or you, you have, you know, this is a solution to your issue as opposed to the way I look at it personally. Like, I worked with a bunch of kids the other day and their visualization was just about, you know, being, being in an area where they could think about, well, what am I going to do when I get off the ice to present this to my teammate? That, that was a great play. Or how am I going to pre react to, to a bad pass? Like, am I gonna, am I gonna train myself to do that in a negative way or a way that's ultimately, and I, what I try to do is frame with the kids is ultimately be selfish. If you, you, if you wanted to help, you help the team, right? Like, if you wanna, if you want to be more successful for you, which you should be, then embrace the ability to help your team, right? Because without that group, your success is null and void. And I think this is where I, I, I, I don't know. I think this is where we struggle the most in youth hockey is it's me, me, me. And every private lesson is about ending with a shot. And really, in reality, every, every, you know, every activity ends in a, a broken play, you know, so it's like, what are we working on and what are we focused on?
Coach VinnyMalts [1:10:19 - 1:11:18]: Bingo. No, you guys nailed it. I remember I did a video before about it and talked about this, but Filters Against Folly. Great book, Mike. That talks about the idea, right, of it's based in biological nature, like understanding different sequences. It was like with farming and all these different things. But the idea behind it was it talked about the three filters, the literate, numerate and echolate. And so literate. Tons of stuff, literature out there. Write it out. What do we need to do? Right? We write out the drills and we need to do all that stuff. Stuff, right? Numeric data, instat, all this stuff. All right, well, what does the numbers tell us? But then echo it is. And then what happened? And then what? So many players, especially in the beginning guys are like, and I'm dealing with this all the time with different players of. Okay, so after you made the play, then what happened? It's all in practice. You made the shot and then you kind of stopped. You didn't go to the, oh, man, you stopped. Like you didn't think about, well, what happened five Seconds after that sequence, where did it go? And that's where we do a. Really to your point, Mike, of the pre and post?
Lee MJ Elias [1:11:18 - 1:11:18]: Yeah.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:11:18 - 1:12:04]: Okay, so what's going to happen before when you think about that play as opposed to just thinking about making that play, how is that? What's the sequence of events that's going to happen before? And then when it's done, what's going to happen after? And now you start thinking about that. Well, now you're preparing yourself mentally. You're seeing all the different parts, right. Michael Phelps talked about how his visualization was all about worst case scenario all the time. So if you're preparing for that and you're seeing all the angles and you're building that up, it makes it easier to deal with the stress, with the unknown, the uncertainty, the things that'll pop up. It's like, oh, man, I didn't think that was going to happen. As opposed to. Oh, yeah, I thought about that and I saw. And then what happened, and that is a big part, Mike, right there, of that we really struggle with, is that we don't teach to. That is thinking about the sequence of events.
Lee MJ Elias [1:12:04 - 1:14:34]: You also just gave a wonderful recipe for hockey IQ in doing that. All right? Is the before and after. And Mike, you said something, too, I wanted to comment on. You know, I. I love that quote. Be curious, not judgmental. We can be very judgmental of ourselves, too, right? That doesn't just apply externally and for the coaches listening. I always think it's such a fascinating and wonderful opportunity when. When we learn something new as coaches, because it can be easy to look at, like the season. You're like, I didn't do any of that. This is a great opportunity now, like, for you to learn. Everything we're talking about applies to coaching as well. One of the fundamental truths I know about coaching is if you're not still learning the game, I don't care. I don't care how old you are. All right? You're not coaching anymore, right? Actually, you're just coaching from a place of ego. All right? Like, I'm excited when I learn stuff. And there are many times I'm like, oh, man, I wish I knew that five years ago or last. Last week. But everything's an opportunity. So. So audit your practices. Audit, grow. Become a better coach. I'm. I'm an insanely different coach now than I was 20 years ago. Mike, you say that all the time, right? Because, I mean, a life happens. You have kids, you're going to coach differently after you have kids. That's just a guarantee. Listen, I want to end this episode on this and I've been waiting to ask this question many. You're very outspoken about youth hockey. I think we are too. It's kind of the nature of our show. We have to talk about Might AAA hockey for a minute. Okay. Because for those of you listening, there might AAA exists. Some of you might have kids playing my aaa. All right. There are a few aspects of it that I get. So for example, so there are. There's such a thing as a third year might. And you want your kid to play full ice and you want them to be a little more competitive. And I'll just say I, I really do understand the concept of wanting some form of evolution if you're a third year might. But where I get lost is when I see the Might AAA rankings come out and the bottom five teams, the bottom five ranked teams have no wins, they're getting killed. And, and you're being ranked for this. What the hell are we doing? I mean, I, I do not understand the need for might triple A ranked hockey. I do understand the need for high level hockey at might. I'm going to say it again. Not, I'm not poo pooing on that idea, but can we just discuss for a second might AAA and what this may or may not be doing to the game?
Coach VinnyMalts [1:14:35 - 1:17:15]: So about six, seven years ago, I did this like group, you know, for. It was a, it was a mix. It was interesting mix. We had literally kids from 9 years old until we actually had a player, pro players in the group, 25. So it's interesting. It was about like, you know, 15, 16 kids in this group. And so one of the days. So we would always kind of start how things going, what's going on, all that stuff. And it was like, you know, it was like one of those like nine week programs or whatever. And the kid comes on zoom. And we start talking about the next weekend of the games that he's having. He was nine. This was the youngest player. Nine. The youngest player on the call. So he starts talking about how. Yeah, yeah, you know, we're, I'm nervous about this weekend. Oh, I said, you know, I don't know, like, I'm just kind of like feeling a little bit nervous. Explain the story. And then he goes and he's like, yeah, we're playing the number one team in the country. I'm like, wait, wait, what? How old are you? And he's just like, well, nine. I'm like, what do you mean number one? Team. How do you know that? Well, in the rankings, there's the number one team. You know, it was Minute Man, I think Flames or whatever at the time. The number one team in the country. I'm like, at nine, I'm like, really? But the main thing that I want people to understand is the amount of stress. Yeah. That. That caused this kid through. I could see it through zoom. And I think that's the part that we really forget about the adulting. The things that we want in the competitive nature to infuse into youth is that we're not recognizing that we're creating this perpetuating cycle of we want to help our kids be better. But then as leaders, adults, parents, coaches, we're creating the very problems that are stressing them out, and then we're fighting the very problems that are stressing them out. So the rankings, that's an adult idea. Youth. I didn't come up with this idea the adults wanted because they want to feel better. Whatever it is, I get it. No problem. But what it's doing to the youth is detrimental because we all know, like, I've had this, you know, argument for a while of my mom, right. So I grew up, you know, first generation Ukrainian. So my mom would always say nearby. Nearby. And so in Russian, it's nerves. Nerves. And I remember as a kid, you know, my dad was freaking out. Like, you know, the culture, it's like everything intense and screaming all the time, you suck. And all that stuff. And I remember my mom. Oh, grabbing me. Hey, near. And what she was saying was, nerves, nerves. So when the kids are 9, 10, 11, 12, when you're bringing these nervous system energy things that adults do at older levels when. Oh, by the way, biologically, when these kids turn 13, 14 years old and they go to high school, they're naturally going to start to feel this nervousness based off of peer pressure.
Lee MJ Elias [1:17:15 - 1:17:15]: Right?
Coach VinnyMalts [1:17:15 - 1:17:43]: But because you want this earlier, what you're doing is you're damaging the nervous system. When they're younger and you're screaming at them and you're upset with them and you're making these, you know, rankings and you're doing all this stuff, you're damaging their nervous system, making them think there's this thing that exists, this boogeyman, when the reality is that's just coming from the adults in the room, that's not real for you guys right now. What's real for you guys, wait till you're 13, 14. You're gonna feel it all on your own. I don't have to Do a thing.
Lee MJ Elias [1:17:44 - 1:20:18]: You know, I love where we're going with this because there's a few things too when you're a kid. And again, there's so up, there's backs and forths to this, right? When, when you put the onus on a aaa level at 9 years old and trying to beat the best team in the country, what you've just taught that 9 year old is that is the only thing that matters. So now the letters matter more than the development. And if they don't make every AAA team from them to 18, they have now failed. If, if they don't get the right messages. That's why I said there's a lot of black and white in this, okay? To me as a coach, I want a kid. And Mike, Mike, you say this so eloquently every time you want the kid to be in the place they're going to develop the best. Sometimes that is aaa, sometimes it's not right. But if you get lost on. Well, they didn't make the AAA team, but they're on a team, they're going to develop. We've totally missed the point. The other thing is this. I'm going to use kind of a, kind of a strong metaphor here. The cognitive ability of a nine year old, that is not a stress they should endure. And here's the metaphor. You know, many, you brought up Ukraine. There's not one parent in this country that would say, I wish my kid was in Ukraine dealing with that war so they could build the mental resolve that they need to be a successful adult. Not one of us would say that exactly. Okay? It's, it's horrible what's going over there, but not one of us would want to send our kid to that, that war zone at this time, okay? And I'm not trying to say AAA might, hockey is a war zone, okay? But the stresses that we're creating may be similar, okay, Outside the extreme side of it, if you know what I'm trying to say. You would never expose your kid to that Now. I hear it all the time. They need to learn. They need to learn how to deal with adversity. They are learning how to deal with adversity. Their kids. Puberty is common, man. Like we're gonna deal with it. You know what a nine year old needs is the assurance from their parents that my love for you is not attached to the outcome of this ranked matchup. And this, this is like where I say I go back and forth. If you're playing AAA might and you're achieving What I'm saying, that's. That's wonderful. I really mean that. But if your kid is coming off thinking, mom and dad, if we don't win this game, they're gonna, man, we failed. I, I'm gonna say that pretty bluntly. You failed. Okay. The nine year old mind cannot comprehend that. The sixteen year old mind maybe can start to. Okay. Because when you realize your parents aren't perfect, world changes a bit at nine. They're not doing that.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:20:18 - 1:20:22]: And can you imagine teaching young kids we got to win by seven because of the rankings?
Lee MJ Elias [1:20:23 - 1:20:34]: What touchdowns here? I mean, is that metaphor too far out? Or am I, am I, am I crazy for saying that, or is that along. You would never put your kids in that type of environment.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:20:34 - 1:20:35]: You nailed it, right?
Lee MJ Elias [1:20:35 - 1:20:36]: Yeah.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:20:36 - 1:21:42]: It's like the same thing as I've dealt with this with pro players, guys of like, okay, your dad's freaking out at you right now and stressing you out. The team's been losing and all this stuff, and he's freaking out. Have you told him, you know what? You, when you're at work, if your boss came to you and yelled at you and got upset with you the same way you're getting upset with me right now, would you keep working there? No. Well, you've been doing this to me now for weeks. Literally had that with one of our poor players. The exact conversation that I had to have with dad, when he said it to dad, he's like, wow, I never thought of it that way. Of like, that's not like you don't deal with it at work. Why are you making it that much harder for me? And that's again, as parents, that's why it's so hard. To your point, guys, yeah, when you become a parent, you understand it, but that's where it's challenging. When I hear, you know, other people in our space that were never a parent don't understand the dynamics of that, and they're trying to speak from the hockey lens of it, and they're missing the other flavors of oh my God, like, I can hear what you're saying. You are. There's so many other dynamics you're not including into the soup, right? Into how this all thing comes together.
Lee MJ Elias [1:21:42 - 1:21:42]: Right.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:21:42 - 1:21:43]: The mindset.
Lee MJ Elias [1:21:44 - 1:21:50]: And that's the challenge maybe to close this episode out. And Mike, if you have any thoughts, I'm not trying to lock you out here either.
Mike Bonelli [1:21:50 - 1:22:30]: No, no. I'm just saying it's, it's a, it's a real paradox in the youth sports world because those teams Are full. It's a parent's choice. Yeah, they're full. They're over full. Like, if, if your kid has a mental breakdown, I'm like, oh, good, good. Get him out there. Get my, get my kid out there now. Like, but it's just like, because it, it's become, you know, it's the, you know, the horse is out of the barn. I, I just think it's just, I think it's the parents and we, and Vinnie, we talk a lot about our, our show here is that the people that really need the conversations don't listen.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:22:32 - 1:22:32]: But you do.
Lee MJ Elias [1:22:32 - 1:22:34]: And we appreciate you out there listening.
Mike Bonelli [1:22:35 - 1:22:45]: Most of the people in the, in the car and, you know, in their, in their house or wherever and they're listening are going, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I know that kid. I know that kid. I know that kid. It's not my kid, but I know that kid.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:22:45 - 1:22:46]: Right?
Mike Bonelli [1:22:47 - 1:22:57]: That part is 50 of us would take that kid's spot if it was offered to us. And then, and, but, so, but what is the race like? What is the end game?
Lee MJ Elias [1:22:57 - 1:22:58]: Right?
Mike Bonelli [1:22:58 - 1:23:16]: And, and I have a really hard time because I'm in the world of when I see these high level kids at the national team and at these elite programs and at 17 and 18 years old, time and time and time again, that was the environment they come from them.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:23:16 - 1:23:16]: Right.
Mike Bonelli [1:23:16 - 1:23:49]: It is the place that they went through. And I just on. My only answer is yes, but you did it by luck. You did it by the fact that the other 99 kids failed. You succeeded. And going back to the original conversation, that's all we embrace is the success of the 1, not the failure of the 99. And if you're a youth hockey organization, you don't care about the 99, you care about the 1. And all I need is 21s.
Lee MJ Elias [1:23:49 - 1:26:01]: And I'm going to say this too. The, the shift that has to happen there is that 99 that failed. We have to stop calling that failure and seeing if the ROI was they are better people and they're better prepared for life now because they played youth sports, but they didn't win. No, no, I know what you're saying, Mike. I'm not, I'm not. But I'm not trying to contradict what you said at all. I, I also think that the people that do make it, going back to earlier in the episode, they have the obsessive love for practice in the game and the competing. And again, we said you can't, you can't create that. You can cultivate it. But I also want to say this, too. You know, when I look at things like burnout, which is a reason a lot of people leave the game. You know, to me, and this is a very broad answer, but the solution to burnout is a recognizing there's no solution. That's not how burnout works. And then number two is understanding the community is really the key to helping that go away. Right? And, Vinnie, to your point, to Mike's point, to all of our points in this episode, I always love the phrase it takes a village. And I think that's something we forget in youth hockey. It's not you versus everybody. It's not the coaches versus the parent. We all have to create an ecosystem together that's going to make a conducive environment for our children to grow as people and hopefully as athletes. And if we can't flip that, we're. We're going to a bad place. Now, I am gonna fight for that for as long as I am alive professionally, because that's what I love to do. I love working in team environments because we get to kind of show that. But I also know, as a coach that if a kid's parent, who's the biggest advocate, is giving them the wrong messages, messages at home, there's not much I can do, all right? I can do what I can do with the time that I have, which is usually five to six hours a week. And I'm not going to contradict a parent's parenting to their kid beyond a certain point, because that's not. That is not okay. Right. You have to raise your kid. I can't tell you how to do that, but I can tell you it takes a village. And as a coach, as a team builder, as a parent, whatever you want to call me, my door is always open for that village mentality. I want to work with you to help your kid become a better person. That should be what youth sports is about. And again, Mike, you bring up a great point about where it's heading. I have to be an agent against that.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:26:01 - 1:26:01]: That.
Lee MJ Elias [1:26:01 - 1:26:08]: That's one of the reasons I think I'm here, right? And again, anybody making absolutely wonderful thing. Yeah, yeah.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:26:09 - 1:27:15]: No, reiterate, Mike. What you said of, like, you nailed it and guys. And it kind of like, sums up, right, of, like, the issue we have with the culture. Is that the reason why, Right? And we all know the data of, like, 70% of kids stop at 13, 13 years old. They stop playing sports. The reality is that when they're younger, it should be all about Love, passion, right. Making it exciting. So leadership has to be. That's what we're going to infuse into you. But then once you get to that 13, 14 stage, now we're going to teach you how to deal with adversity. Right now we're changing what this is about. You're now going to learn specifically, hey, you have to deal with the grind. And here's how you deal with the grind, because that's reality. Like that's, you can't. But we don't infuse that. We create a grind right from a young age. Education is for the most part terrible. Right. We know that in the system there's, there's a lot of great fundamental ideas out there, but how many get actually instituted? How many are non negotiable in organizations? Right? No, no, no. This is the best practices for young youth. Mind points.
Mike Bonelli [1:27:15 - 1:27:16]: Yeah.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:27:16 - 1:27:34]: In hockey, there's no regulation, there's no main. There's certain principles you have to follow for sure. And there's some great stuff, right? ADM does some great stuff. You'll say Hawkin, they have it set up. But at the end of the day, it's not that the governing body kind of sets it. But then we all know if you talk to anybody from different parts of the country, everybody kind of has their own thing going on, right?
Mike Bonelli [1:27:34 - 1:28:09]: Nobody's cutting you off from hockey. Nobody's cutting you off. That's. Oh, you didn't, you didn't follow the, the, the, the guidelines. Yeah. You cut off. No, it's just like, oh, you, you know, shame on you. You should do this. Yeah, well, I have the biggest organization in the world and the most money. So I mean, I just, so it's just, it's just a matter of the. Buyer beware. Choose what's best for your kids. Find the place that fits. You know, your environment and your family and what your kid does. The, the, the adage that, you know, there, it's a race to nowhere is, is just, it is what it is. This doesn't come up because everyone knows the path.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:28:09 - 1:28:09]: Yeah.
Mike Bonelli [1:28:09 - 1:29:01]: Nobody knows the path. So it's just a matter of just put your place in the healthiest place to get better and have fun. And if your kid, Vinnie, when you were growing up, right, if you were going, if you were going to be found, there was no YouTube and, and, and Instagram and, and if you're going to be found, you're going to be found. It's even easier now. If you're that good, you will be found. You don't need to go across the country to exposure camp. If you're good enough, you're going to get found. And, and so, so, but, but, but be, be aware. If you're a parent and your kid gets found and they can't deal with it because they can't evolve because of the, the way they've kind of been instituted into the system, then what does all of that mean? What is all. What was all that for? And I don't know. I just, it's. It's a really, it's a really hard lesson to learn when it's too late to learn it.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:29:01 - 1:29:42]: Oh yeah. And that's why what you guys are doing is so important. That's what, like just more dialogue, more communication of these ideas that we know it's the reality. But like you guys said, h. It's out. Like I was thinking about this the other. Like, yeah, like you can't put it back in. The only thing you can do is reinvent it and say, wait, there's got to be a more effective way to do it and speak to it and say, all right, well how are we going to develop now under these conditions? Because it's already, it's gone. Like that's. The conditions are the conditions. You're not going to change it, but you can change how we reframe it and bring sunshine on it and like these types of conversations, like we all know intuitively this isn't the right way, this isn't the healthiest way. So what are the other ways? What else can we do?
Lee MJ Elias [1:29:42 - 1:31:06]: And we have to explore that together. And you know, to, to end this show on a super bright note, which is true. The ever growing audience that this show is creating and that audience is being created because of you listeners telling other people, you got to listen to the show, you gotta listen to the show. I mean, I've had so many people come up to me in ranks recently and it's growing because you're sharing the show and this isn't a plug for you to share. What I'm saying to you is the size of this audience is showing you that people want this type of talk, this type of community and maybe even this type of change a bit. Right. We're all out there. Okay. And that, that's why the show is as Benny to your point. Thank you for saying it is so important because we're creating this voice for the non crazy, as we say, hockey parenting. As we always say, you're not crazy. The hockey world is crazy. But if we don't all work together. It's going to stay the way it is. Right. So I, I have seen changes and I have seen such great feedback on, on all the work that all of us are doing and I think that's going to do a video this hour and a half show. It might become two episodes. We'll find out. I think we could have got another hour and a half, but we do have our lives to live. Yeah. I just want to thank you so much for being here, man. Like I said, I love everything that you do. Make sure if you're listening, follow him at coach McVinny Maltz. Just check him out, guys. He's doing such great work in the space and he's someone I look up to as well within, within hockey. So, Vinny, thanks so much for being here today.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:31:06 - 1:31:09]: Yeah, I appreciate it. Ditto, brother. Great job, guys. Keep it up. I love it.
Lee MJ Elias [1:31:10 - 1:31:25]: That's gonna do it for this edition of our Kids Play Hockey. For Mike Vinnie, I'm Lee. Make sure that you follow us wherever you're found. Tell your friends about it, share it in your team communications. And remember, if you have a question or you want to ask us something, there's a link in the episode. Episode description. Excuse me.
Mike Bonelli [1:31:25 - 1:31:26]: Click that.
Lee MJ Elias [1:31:26 - 1:32:05]: You can text it right to us. It goes to us. Or email us. Old School now team and our kids playhockey.com all of you. Have a wonderful day. Have a wonderful game. Have a wonderful ice session. We'll see you next time on our Kids Play Hockey. Let's get on. We hope you enjoyed this edition of our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network or our website, our Kids Play hockey dot com. Also make sure to check out our children's book, when Hockey Stops atwhen hockey stops dot com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of our Kids Play Hockey and we'll see you on the next episode.
Coach VinnyMalts [1:32:08 - 1:32:09]: Sa.
