Our Kids Play Hockey
Our Kids Play Hockey is a podcast that focuses on youth hockey, offering insights, stories, and interviews from the hockey community. It provides valuable advice for parents, coaches, and players, covering various aspects of the game, including skill development, sportsmanship, teamwork, and creating a positive experience for young athletes. The show frequently features guests who share their expertise and personal experiences in youth hockey, both on and off the ice.
The show features three hockey parents, who all work in the game at high levels:
- Christie Casciano-Burns - USA Hockey Columnist, Author, and WSYR Anchor
- Mike Bonelli - USA Hockey Coach and Organizational Consultant
- Lee M.J. Elias - Hockey Entrepreneur, Author, and Team Strategist
In addition to the main podcast, there are several spin-off series that dive into specific aspects of youth hockey:
1.Our Girls Play Hockey – This series highlights the growing presence of girls in hockey, addressing the unique challenges they face while celebrating their accomplishments and contributions to the sport. Each episode of Our Girls Play Hockey is also hosted by Sheri Hudspeth who is the Director, Youth Hockey Programs and Fan Development for the Vegas Golden Knights.
2.The Ride to The Rink – A shorter, motivational series designed to be listened to on the way to the rink, offering quick, inspirational tips and advice to help players and parents get into the right mindset before a game or practice.
3.Our Kids Play Goalie – This series is dedicated to young goalies and the unique challenges they face. It provides advice for players, parents, and coaches on how to support and develop young goaltenders, focusing on the mental and physical demands of the position.
Together, these shows provide a comprehensive platform for parents, players, and coaches involved in youth hockey, offering insights for all aspects of the sport, from parenting, playing, or coaching to specialized positions like goaltending.
Our Kids Play Hockey
Pulverizing the Stigma & Tackling Mental Health in Youth Sports with Jon Nelson
In this powerful episode of Our Kids Play Hockey, we sit down with Jon Nelson, a hockey coach, father, and mental health advocate, to discuss his incredible journey through hockey, mental health challenges, and the groundbreaking treatment that changed his life.
Jon shares his deeply personal battle with depression, the life-saving deep brain stimulation procedure he underwent, and how hockey helped him persevere through it all. He also discusses his advocacy work through Pulverize the Stigma, a movement dedicated to breaking down barriers around mental health conversations.
This episode is a must-listen for parents, coaches, and players looking to create a supportive, empathetic environment in youth hockey. We explore:
🏒 The role of hockey in mental health and resilience
🧠How to recognize and support those struggling
đź’ˇ Ways we can make the hockey community a leader in mental health awareness
🎧 Listen now and join us in changing the conversation. #OurKidsPlayHockey #MentalHealthInSports #PulverizeTheStigma
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Lee MJ Elias [0:07 - 1:28]: Hello, hockey friends and families around the world. And welcome back to another episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. I'm Lee Elias. I'm joined by Christy Casciano Burns and Mike Benelli. Our guest today is a compelling story that intertwines a deep passion for hockey with a courageous journey through mental health challenges. John Nelson is a dedicated hockey enthusiast and father who has faced significant battles with depression. His journey led him to undergo deep brain stimulation, a procedure that has been pivotal in managing his condition. John has courageously shared his experiences to help to stigmatize mental health discussions and advocate for innovative treatments. John has been actively involved in the hockey community as a coach, instilling the values of perseverance and resilience in young athletes. His advocacy extends beyond the rink through Pulverize the Stigma. I've got the hoodie right here. We'll talk about it on the show today. It's a platform we created to raise awareness and provide resources for those facing mental health challenges. And through this initiative, John is helping individuals and families navigate their own journeys while pushing for greater acceptance and understanding of mental health struggles, something that's very important in the game of ice hockey. Today, we're honored to have John with us to discuss his experiences, the intersection of mental health and athletics, his work with Pulverize the Stigma. I love that name. And how we can better support young players both on and off the ice. John, welcome to our Kids Play Hockey.
Jon Nelson [1:28 - 1:35]: I can't tell you how psyched I am to be here. These are my two biggest passions, mental health and ice hockey. So let's go.
Lee MJ Elias [1:36 - 1:39]: Well, in the words of those movies, you have come to the right place.
Christie Casciano [1:39 - 1:40]: Yes, you have.
Lee MJ Elias [1:40 - 1:53]: Yeah. Okay. Well, I know John. Yeah. It's great to have you, man. You're a big fan of the show and. And again, the conversations leading up to this episode, this is going to be a really impactful episode for. For both athletes, parents, coaches, really, everybody listening.
Jon Nelson [1:53 - 1:54]: But, yeah, let's.
Lee MJ Elias [1:54 - 2:10]: Let's start with your hockey story, man. How did hockey become such an important part of your life? How's it influenced your journey through mental health? And then obviously, let's tell us the story, because I said it to you in the pre show. John's story, listeners, is not one I'm gonna tell. He's going to tell you his story.
Jon Nelson [2:11 - 16:55]: So I am a Pittsburgh kid, born and bred, which I'm sure you don't like to hear. So I grew up in the golden ages of the Pittsburgh Penguins, so I'm, you know, early teens, got Mary Lemieux as they say in Pittsburgh. We had Jammer Jagger at the time, good old Yammer Jagger. So let me tell you how much fun it was to live my formidable years in the Berg. And I just, I fell in love with the game. I still remember like it's yesterday. I'm driving down Squal Run Road east with my dad. We're listening to Mike Lang on the radio. Rest in peace and just talking about Paul Coffey and is skating and just flying up the ice. You know, I just have these vivid memories of the sport and you know, it's just stuck with me. You know, it stuck with me. I was 14 years old when I started playing hockey. I was super late, you know, for hockey in general. And I just loved it. Every single time I was at a rink, I just smiled, you know, I was like, I can't believe how lucky I am to be here. I wasn't good. My skill wasn't there. But guess what? I knew my role. And my role was I'm a 240 pound kid at the time who learned how to skate fast. And I was your fourth lion bruiser, right, in high school hockey back when you kind of could. I'm 48 now, so I'm aging myself, right? But you know, I, it's funny, I was actually talking to my kids the other day in the car and I was like, you know, I didn't play much in high school. And they're like, how much did you play, dad? I'm like, I'd be lucky if I got a shift period. You know. And they're like, were you upset about that? Not one bit. You know, I was like, not one bit, man. I was there. I was there. I was in the locker room, I'm pumping up the guys. I knew exactly my role, you know, it was just, just, just to be around the game was incredible and you know, so a huge part of my life. And I, when I went to college, I still remember I got, I bought DirecTV, put a satellite dish up in the back of our apartment illegally, which I wasn't supposed to do just, just so I could watch every Penguins game, right? Like it was just, so, it was just homey for me, you know, I just loved it tremendously. And we move. Ultimately I move all around. So Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, New York City, San Francisco. I'm back here now I'm in Newtown, Pennsylvania. So I, my hockey journey right now is I'm a coach for the Royals, which is in. Which is a tier two program with ahf. Tier one program from us is revolution. I've coached everywhere from limited travel up to Bantam. I spent the last four years as head coach essentially within peewee. So I know that world well. I know that I know the A level well, B level well, limited travel world well. And so my medical story, just to kind of show you how it kind of connects to hockey is around 10 years ago, I started getting very, very, very sick. And I didn't know what was going on. I think that's the biggest thing for people to understand through the journey with mental illness. You know, at the time, I have two kids, we're living in San Francisco, we just moved back to the East Coast. You know, things are thriving in my life. I'm crushing it at work. You know, I have, I have from the outside, you know, what, what folks are think is a really good life. And you know, inside my soul just started slowly getting sucked away. You know, my self esteem started going tremendously and I, and I just kept kind of digging deeper into a hole and I went and did the most shocking thing in the world. Lee, you won't believe it, but I went to a therapist. Don't tell anybody, right? And I'm trying to figure out, you know, hey, what's going on here? And you know, after a couple of sessions, they said to me, you know, you've made your depressive disorder. And I didn't know what that meant. I was like, it doesn't make any sense. And so I look it up and it's exactly what I had. And so, you know, when I'm going through this journey, I'm trying to figure out what, you know, what's going on and why is this, why is there shame to having this? I don't understand. And so my entire medical journey in the most simplistic sense, and it's not simple because you'll understand how long it was, is, you know, I did over 10 different medications. I did two stays in residential treatment programs for 30 days. I did three partial hospitalization plans, three intensive outpatient plans. I did psychedelics with ketamine. I did something called transcranial magnetic stimulation. You have to go 36 times to a psychiatrist's office. They put you in a chair and they essentially put magnetic pulses towards a section of your brain that they're trying to activate. It didn't work. That was $495 every time on my credit card. I'm trying to see, hopefully if I get reimbursed. So let me tell you how challenging it is to heal your brain. When you're financially ruining your family, it's really challenging. And then I had to do 15 courses of electroconvulsive therapy. And so that's the gold standard treatment for treatment resistant depression. It's 90 year old technology. They don't even know how or why it works. They're essentially creating seizures in your brain. And so to tell everybody what severe depression looks like, in 2022, I was under anesthesia 16 times. That's what this looks like. The entire time I'm doing this. You know, truly one of the things that saved my life is this beautiful Game of Hockey. 100% beautiful game of hockey. I, I received so much pleasure from it. You know, when you, when you want to die, every single second of the day, which is exactly what this disease was for me. My two biggest symptoms were constant suicidal ideation. I mean, hundreds of thoughts a day of just how do I end this misery? Right? That's number one. Number two is, remember, think of the feeling that you get with the aches and shakes with the cold or the flu, right? You know, that physical body sensation, that full body sensation all mine was, was the exact same thing, but it's just death and dread circulating through your body. Like I could literally feel it in my, in my fingers, right? Like that's how much it consumes you. And so you look for any relief, right, when you're going through that list of all the things that I just said and nothing works. Oh my gosh, man. Anything that you can get that gets you out of that, right? And, and so to me, you know, the bad side of that is substances, right? It's easy to abuse substances when nothing's working. When nothing's working, you need relief. That's a simple thing. The other thing is to try to find your passions. And so my passion was hockey, My passion was coaching. My passion was, you know, seeing these kids walk into the rink and leave the rink with the biggest smile in the world. You know, connecting with all of them, making them love, being a teammate, you know, creating this environment. This is kind of the role that I do as a coach is I look at this as a, as an absolute full on environment for everybody. You know, when you think about it, there's 16 kids, there's, there's, you add in parents, you're at 50 people, you add in siblings, and you add in grandparents, you're close to 100 people. Like you're leading that. You're not just leading these kids that are on the ice. I mean, that's how I Look at it from, from a 12 year old and below level is like, that's what you're doing. And so to me, I just, I so thoroughly enjoy every single thing about this game. But how does it impact me when I'm dealing with this mental illness? So four years ago, I'm coaching, I'm coaching 12 UB and I'm an assistant coach for 11 for. For Squirt. And it's October, the season. As you guys know what the season's like in October, right? It's like, oh my God. It's like you've been punched a little bit and you're trying to relax, but it's hard, you know, because you still got five more months to go. But it's, it's a whirlwind and I'm, I just, I'm gonna die, like if I don't do something, I'm dead. And you know, I'm. I'm managing these two teams. I'm surrounded by these great people and these kids and you know, is the second time I had to raise my wife, my hand to my wife and just say, I have to go on. I need to, I need to go to another facility if I'm going to stay alive. And so let me tell you how hard that is, like, how hard that is to deal with. This is a disease that nobody has asked for, right? And you're judged, labeled, shamed, ostracized by the world. Not just by some people, by the world, right? And now I'm coaching these teams. I'm the last person that people think is sick. I'm an extroverted person. I'm very high functioning. I'm, you know, you, you know me, we're busting chops, we're having fun. And I got to make a lot of phone calls, right? I got to call every one of my assistant coaches. I got to call parents on my team. I gotta write a team snap message that pretty hard for people to hear and pretty hard for people to see. And I need to go, you know, and I'm looking at my kid at the time who was 8 and they were going down to play, you know that, that thing at the, the Flyers game in between periods. Yeah, Mites on ice and mites on ice. And he, and he looks at me and he's like, dad, you're gonna miss that. And dad, you're gonna miss my birthday. And just starts, you know, crying, just breaking down, right? And so like that's, that's what this is. You know, this is, is like this, this is life. Like, this is, this is real world, this is life. And I can't begin to tell you how kind, you know, 99 of the hockey community was to me. You know, the reach outs that they had to me, the kindness that they had, the, the picking up the slack while I'm gone. There was not a missed beat on my teams from a coaching standpoint, from a, from a laughter standpoint, from a making these kids happy. Everybody rallied around and was so kind. And it was one of those moments where I'm like, this is it. Like, this is 100% what is right about the beauty of this sport is it's true community. And it's. Listen, you don't, it's hard to talk about this because people don't know how to react when you're in the moment. But once you start getting to the rawness, the realness, the emotion, the what's going on, every single person connects. And then the last part I'll get to, and then I will go through a lot of questions is I, I get to two years ago, the beginning actually of last season. So I go through every single treatment that I had mentioned and the only consistency, as I said, was just the hell getting worse in my body. And so I end up getting into a clinical trial out of Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City with the biggest freaks in the space, Dr. Wise, who've been studying for 30 years. Listen, in the brain with depression, there's a circuit off. This is a biological disease. This is a disease that nobody asked for. Just like every single other disease, except society doesn't accept it. That's the difference. That is why everybody suffers. That is why everybody dies. And so fortunately, I was still alive. You had to pass some very, very difficult inclusion criteria to get. And I got in, I went in on August 22, 22. I get the surgery is an eight hour, very invasive brain surgery. They wake you up halfway through. They're literally, I'm playing a game halfway through so they can see what the stimulation looks like in my brain as I'm up. They put me back out the very next day. I wake up, go into their lab and there's 24 researchers and physicians from around the world to actually watch this whole process and watch this happen. And one of the things that I couldn't do and that I told my doctor, it's called abolition. It's something that nobody told me about an entire decade battle of dealing with hell, which is it's the medical reason why you can't do Daily routine, activities. And I said, you know, Doc, like, brushing my teeth is like a herculean effort. Like, I can't walk my dog around the. Around the block. Like, I can't do it, you know? And so she says to me the next day, there's eight electrodes in my brain. Essentially. You can see my. I got my little dots right here on the top of my head. Those are caps that cover my two holes in my skull. There's two electrical leads that go down into two very specific portions of my brain. Four leads, four kind of electrical spots on each, and they turn them on one at a time. And she just would say to me, this is over an hour period, you know, John, do you feel like you can walk your dog? And I'll just be like, I don't know, Doc. Like, I don't. I don't feel that different. Next one. You feel like you could walk your dog? Yeah. Yeah. I'm feeling a little bit more motivated. Do you think you could have your friends over for a fire, Have a fire pit in the backyard? I moved from San Francisco. I built the dopest fire pit in the backyard. I hadn't had a fire for three years. I can't do it, you know? And I'm like, I feel pretty motivated. And they literally huddle, and they say, go home. And I went home. This is literally, again, attached to hockey. This is training camp. This is the end of August, August 22nd. You guys know exactly where we are in the season. And I go home the very next day. I woke up, and I have been in 100% remission from this disease ever since I woke up. I said, hon, let's go on a walk. Let's grab the dog. Let's grab the. Grab our youngest son. And not only did I do the walk, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I had enjoyed the conversation the next day. I had friends over, and we had lunch outside. We had coffee. Like, these are things that people take for granted and don't even think about, right? Until you've literally looked at the depths of hell for an entire decade. And, like, the two things that happened to me as this. As this occurred was I knew something was wrong with me. Like, that's the first thought you have because it's such a stigmatized condition that you even start questioning yourself, you know? So I'm like, oh, my God. I knew. I knew something was wrong. And then the second feeling that I had was, I'm pissed. Like, I can't believe this is our world. Like, how is this our World, like how are there, I mean, to give you a stat to show you the absurdity of this. The average person with depression waits a decade to seek treatment. They wait a decade. Think about that, think of that for any other disease. Like it's completely absurd. Right? But that's what happens. And so when people go through these conditions and they suffer in silence, which is absolutely true statement, it's because of us, it's because of the judgment of society. And so me being able to come through this on the other end and listen like this is where it's, like this is where it's cool, is I'm a nice person. I love human beings. I love being around great people. I don't like getting messed with. Like that's the other thing about my personality. And I don't forget and I've been messed with hard for a decade. And so let's go. Like till the last breath I have, I'm going to poke society in the face and let them know they're the reason that everybody's suffering and dying.
Lee MJ Elias [16:55 - 16:58]: There's the hockey player in there, right there. Just came out.
Jon Nelson [16:58 - 17:01]: There you go. Wow.
Christie Casciano [17:01 - 17:16]: I should have to take a breath because that was terrifying. To think of how brave you were too and not knowing what the result would be. I mean, they're operating on your brain. That's terrifying, but yet so miraculous. Incredible.
Jon Nelson [17:17 - 18:16]: I'll actually, I'll give you a perspective on that. So here's the wildest part about it, is I was less nervous going in for an eight hour brain surgery than I was getting my teeth cleaned. I could care less. And the reason, and the reason being this is that this is to explain to everybody the depths of hell of what these diseases are, is I wanted to die. And so guess what? When you're dealing with this disease, you can't die because you don't get life insurance. But most of the time, 99% of these plans don't have that. But if I died on, if I die on the operating table, hell yeah. So that's the mindset that you're going into this with, is this answers all of my problems 100%. And so I didn't have any fear. It was more of just like, let's go. This is, I mean the chances of this working in the back of my head were very slim because nothing else worked. But that's a great question and that's something that I hear a lot. But I mean that just explains to you the reality of what this disease does to your mind and your body.
Christie Casciano [18:17 - 18:35]: Yeah, yeah. And your family being there and supporting you and your hockey community supporting you, that is so integral. Because as you said, this is a disease that is so stigmatized, nobody wants to hear about it, nobody wants to talk about it, and they just want you to go away.
Mike Bonelli [18:36 - 18:37]: You know what I mean?
Christie Casciano [18:38 - 18:45]: So that is so critical. How can we get better at supporting others who are walking this dark journey?
Jon Nelson [18:45 - 20:59]: Well, the good part is this wonderful sport of hockey. I have the deepest relationships ever from it. I still remember high school. I was actually thinking about this the other day. It's like every decade I have these incredible life memories, life stories, and just learning how to be a teammate, like learning in high school how to like, just dig in and just love your teammates and do anything for each other. And this, this, this kid that I had, he was our star in my high school, Brian Grant. Wonderful dude. And in every single time I played one shift a game, as I said, I was like leading our team in assists because every time they came over, they're like, hey, who assisted you? He'd be like 44, Nelson. Right. So you start seeing it like this early age, wonderful bonds. He's like good people. And to your point, I mean, if I didn't have the support that I have from these incredible. My family, like the only person, people that this is worse for disease wise than the person suffering is the caretakers and the caregivers 100%. And so to see what my wife did, to see what my kids did, to see what my hockey community did, I mean, they truly just made me feel loved and like, that's all that it is. Like, there's nothing that needs to happen. There's like, that's the thing that's so frustrating to me about this disease is it's the biggest public health crisis out there. The number one cause of disability worldwide is depression. Think about that, right? Like, I mean, it drives every single aspect of it. And, you know, let me put this to a perspective of cancer. I use cancer all the time as an analogy. Cancer is. Cancer is absolutely treated by society beautifully. And it should, 100%. It's exactly what should happen. You have the exact opposite with mental illness. And so when you hear of somebody who's recently been diagnosed with cancer, for instance, you know, a hockey coach as an example, can you believe they're still coaching? Like, we're around this person. Let's rally behind them, let's take care of them, let's take care of their family. You know, I can't begin to tell you how many Coaches there are. That are absolutely suffering with some type of mental illness, which can't talk about it, and that's what makes people worse. And it's just the reality of it.
Lee MJ Elias [20:59 - 22:14]: When I want to dive into that quickly, because I think people might listen to your story and go, oh, that's a super extreme example. And it's. It's. This is more common in our teams than people think in terms of people suffering from depression. Okay. And the stigma surrounding it is in the words that we use, right? Oh, you're soft. Well, there is a version of that that may be true, all right? But there's also a version of that that's incredibly harsh and thoughtless and. And is not true. And, you know, this is my message. And, John, maybe you can support me in this. I can sort of guarantee, just probably guarantee every one of you in the hockey space knows someone suffering from this, but you don't realize that they are suffering from this, all right? And that's, you know, in all of my work in the space and studying the space, someone suffering from severe depression may not look like it at all. At all. And you had said it earlier, you're a very type a person. You're out there. It's not until you had said something that people probably realized it. So, you know, John, I want to turn it back to you again. There's a very good chance all of you listening know someone going through this, but you might not realize they're going through this.
Jon Nelson [22:15 - 24:23]: I can't tell you how important that is of a message, and I will share it to you in this example. So from a work standpoint, I was at the depths of my hell. I was the managing director of an advertising agency. I got promoted to president of this ad agency. I wanted to die every second of the day. I was leading probably the number one team with the best culture in hockey at the time. I vividly remember at that ad agency, you win a big piece of business. You know, you're the leader of the shop. You get up there, you do the champagne toast. Guys, we rocked it. Way to go. And I'm driving home right after that, and I know every single tree that I go by that would be the best tree for me to slam my car into and die. Like, that's what this is. That's what this disease turns into. So is that extreme? It's actually not. Believe it or not, suicidal ideation is not an extreme, but people don't talk about it. But. But you are 100% right. Like, when we think about the hockey community, this isn't just the kids. The kids is obviously something that we needed. We need to give them just essentially mental health literacy. The mental health literacy that has out there is very low. Us talking about it, us putting programs around, around about this preventative nature of what this is, to explain it, right? Here's what this looks like. But then when you look at it, this is coaches, this is parents, this is referees, this is hockey directors. It absolutely is immersed in a lot of us. And the fear of talking about it, the fear of this disease, again, I keep saying it, it's why everybody suffers and dies. It's the fact that it's not accepted by society. And if any group is going to accept this disease, it should be this beautiful, amazing, awesome community of hockey folks. And let's lead. Like, we've tried it. People have tried across the spectrum, right? Let's actually lead it. Let's become leaders of all of the sports and make this an absolute critical mission to save lives and end suffering. Sounds pretty dope, right? Like, I sign me up, so, you.
Mike Bonelli [24:23 - 24:53]: Know, so I'm think I'm thinking about the perspective of this from a. From the side of. Listen, this is way out of my lane. I show up for the rink, I just want to coach a bunch of kids. I don't have time to worry about what other parents are going through or referees or timekeepers or the guy that drives the, you know, the ice machine. So I guess my question to you is, you know, just knowing, because we all think. I think on this phone call that hockey is a different community. It just is. It's.
Lee MJ Elias [24:53 - 24:54]: It's a totally.
Mike Bonelli [24:54 - 25:44]: And. And we could talk a lot about, about why that is because of the, the length of the season. Is it because of the, the confines of the locker room? Is it because of, you know, the, the sacrifices you have to make this play to sport that other people don't have to make. But can you just talk a little bit about why sport is important for this type of recognition? Like, you know, why do we play sport? And I think what you're getting at, and I hope you could talk about it a little bit, is, you know, sport is not just about, can we win a championship day in the year. Sport is about teaching our, our players and our families and our. And the people within the sport that, that you're in a community of people that trust you and want you to succeed, and not just being on the ice is certainly the only goal.
Jon Nelson [25:44 - 28:51]: It's a great, great point. Great perspective. I look at hockey as life lessons all the time. And I. And in regards to your initial chat of. I've, you know, so much going on. We can all drive from a place of empathy and creating a phenomenal environment. And when I. When I think of my team as an example, I look at one of the kids my first week, current season, I noticed the little things. And so the little things are, I noticed the kid who's 10 minutes before the exams, before the ice is done, standing at the door. I'm like, all right, I like that. I have a. I got a picture from one of my assistant coaches two weeks into the season. I had a big work meeting. I wasn't allowed to be. Couldn't be there. And he didn't send me a picture of the score. He didn't send me a picture of anything. He sent me a picture of the kids standing up on the bench. That was it. It's like, that's all I need to know, right? It's like, oh, I got it. Yeah. It's like we're. They're. They're. They're going, right? They're. They're flying. They're. They're kicking ass. You know, they got each other's back. And so when I think of, you know, our role in sport. Our role in sport is, you know, let's get these kids off the phones. Like, let's get these kids in the. In the locker room bonding. Let's. Let's teach them how. Me, me, me, me, me mentality will get you nowhere. You know, we. We have to 100% have each other's back. And then that's the same thing that I take towards health and towards kindness and towards empathy is, you know, as a coach, we 100% are responsible for setting the tone. And here's exactly what we're doing here. Boundaries that we have, like, that's all basic stuff, but. But beyond that, you know, if we can lead and we can promote the greatness of this game, the greatness of being a phenomenal teammate, the fact that we want you to have fun and leave, and the fact that we care about you as human beings, like, you have to understand something like going through this and all of the other people that are out there going through this, you don't see, you don't feel seen. Like you think people are literally looking through you. If I had the balls to actually tell somebody that I'm suffering from severe depression, guess what the response was that I would get. 99% of the time. The response was this. I'm not frozen. They would just stare at you, right? So when you're living a world where you feel awkward all the time, like, that's what it is, and so you don't even realize that the power of just being kind, the power of just being a good person. You can be stern, dude. You can be a Mike Keenan type, which I like that show. Like, you could be a Mykina type. But guess what? You can still have humanity in you. And so like us, us teaching the kids that humanity is. Is probably the most important thing and how you make people feel. Greatest Maya Angelou quote ever. That's true. And guess what? Like, I, I. If I. If I'm attempting to not make you feel good, there's a reason for it, right? If I'm but 99 of the time, I'm. I am 100 focused on. On making you feel like a freaking human being, I think that.
Lee MJ Elias [28:51 - 28:51]: Go ahead.
Mike Bonelli [28:52 - 29:47]: No, well, just real quickly. I just, I just, I think that's my point, right? Is that I. I'm not a therapist. I'm not. I can't save you. I can't help you. But I can emphasize with you, and I can understand that every single kid on our team can be going through whatever they go through with their parents and with their siblings and in their. Just their own life. But understanding about. To your point, I'm. I'm aware of the kid that picks up the puck after practice. I'm aware of the kid that carries his own bag. I'm aware of all that stuff. So why can't I be. Why shouldn't I be aware of the little nuances of how a kid is reaction, reacting to other kids or how they. How they react to their parents when they see them, you know, fear or joy or how they avoid people in the locker room? Like, I can be aware of those things. I think it's important for us as coaches to know that when we are in those, you know, those settings, and whether you believe it or not, you are.
Lee MJ Elias [29:47 - 29:47]: You.
Mike Bonelli [29:47 - 29:58]: You're like, your point, you're influencing 100 families, and you're a part of those lives. And I think it's just important for us to understand that nobody's asking you to be a therapist, but they are asking you to be aware.
Lee MJ Elias [29:58 - 30:00]: That's the stigma, though. That's the stigma.
Christie Casciano [30:00 - 30:05]: Right. And to help us become more aware. John, what does depression look like?
Jon Nelson [30:05 - 31:32]: Yeah. In all phenomenal points and questions. And so the simplest thing that I would say on how I translate this to my kid or my kids, on my Team, as an example, is if something is in your head, if something's in your head and it doesn't feel right, talk to me about it. Talk to anybody about it. Talk to your parents about it. Coaches, like, you don't have to be a therapist to let people know that you are. There's nothing that you can say that is. That is going to upset me. It's the exact opposite. If you can get the hell out of people's minds, even in the most basic sense, like, this could be something that's starting very early on, just letting them know that it's an open environment for. For you to talk. Talk to your parents, talk to me. That's it. You don't have to be a therapist to do that. Like, that's just general. The humanity again. And then this gives an opportunity for people like me to get out there and say, you know, this is what. It can be at the most extreme perspective. But I'll tell you, it's words. Words in this. In this are so important. You know, I was in. I was going to see a therapist one time, and she said to me, I can't wait to see you. I look forward to providing you relief. And I was like, oh, my God. I was like, that's it. I was like, that's all I need. Like, all I need is relief. And she's sitting there and you're like, it's just all comes down to feels, right? And the feels in that scenario were just absolutely incredible.
Lee MJ Elias [31:32 - 34:28]: You know, John, you made this great point earlier about when you would go up to people and say, I'm really suffering from this thing. And the response they would give, you know, another example of this. I see. And. And this, to me, this kind of describes the stigma in an interesting way. For the audience listening, I'll kind of portray this as a question. How do you respond when someone asks you or says to you, I'm in therapy or my kids in therapy? Right. The response to that is. Is interesting to me. And again, you know, some people stay silent, some people kind of nod. And, you know, I don't mind making myself vulnerable here a little bit. When people tell me that, I go, that's great. You know, I. I've done that, too. That's. That's my response. I have. I've been seeing therapists since I was young, you know, like 12, 11, 12 years old. And the thing is, I don't problem telling people that, because if someone was sick physically, and they say, I went to the doctor, you wouldn't go oh, oh, boy. You'd go, that's great. It's great that you're seeing a doctor. And that's kind of explains some of that stigma there, too. Also, you know, one thing I want to discuss here, and it's important because I think the perspective is an important thing to discuss, right? I remember being younger and hearing about severe depression and the questions in my mind at that time, which, Which I would say, I don't use the word incorrect, but the way I perceived at that time is, you know, kind of like, just don't be that way, right? It was almost just like, well, you just got to psych yourself out of that, right? I'm not. I am. I am not somebody I can, you know, I've. I have not ever experienced that to that level. Right. And that's the first two points I want to make quickly. It's okay to understand. You're not going to understand. This is not just with mental health, my friends. This is, if you're not a woman, you're not going to understand what it is to be a woman. If you're not a different race, you're not going to understand. And guess what? That's absolutely okay. Kind of that first admission of it's okay to not know. You don't have to know everything. You cannot put yourself in someone else's shoes. That's the first step, right? And then I was, you know, I've been privileged to be in this space and talk to a lot of people who've been through it. And someone had said to me one time, and this really shifted my perspective, John, they said, you know, you don't understand. From my point of view, it's better for all of you if I'm not here. And I had never heard that before, right? When I would think of depression when I was younger, it's like, oh, you're just really upset. But I want you here. I want you here. You know, I want you to be here. And you don't understand. I think your life would be better without me here. Man, that shook me to my core. I had never thought that way before. It actually kind of rearranged everything I ever thought about people in that position. I really did not understand. And. And that's when I really sought out, what am I supposed to say in that situation, right? What am. How am I supposed to respond to someone who says that now, Mike, you made a great point earlier. You know, we're.
Jon Nelson [34:28 - 34:28]: We're.
Lee MJ Elias [34:28 - 34:55]: No one's trained. No one knows what to do. So I'm going to kind of ask this as a question. John, you went up to somebody, you said it. I, I'm suffering from severe depression. What should someone say? If someone's courageous enough to admit that and if someone, you maybe have a sense that someone's going through something, which is not always the case. What can we do as coaches, as refs, as parents, as players, as teammates to kind of dive into that with someone?
Jon Nelson [34:55 - 38:39]: Such an awesome perspective. So to add to your stigma aspect, how many times has everybody in this world heard, hey guys, I'm going to be in tomorrow at 10, I have a dentist appointment, so I'm going to be running a little late. Like these are little examples, right? Hey, I got my, running my PCP tomorrow, right? You never hear, I'm going to my psychiatrist. You know, when, when you have a toothache, you would be moronic not to go to the dentist, right? But if you have a problem with the most complex computer system in the world, in your brain, you're perceived as weak. That doesn't make any sense. And so to explain to you just the absurdity of the stigma, and I hear this a lot and it's such a great way and I love these examples because it kind of teaches people how ingrained it is into every single person, which is 99% of the world doesn't understand the science behind cancer, but they sure know it sucks when somebody gets it, right? And so what happens when somebody tells you, oh my God, dude, I just got diagnosed with cancer. What do you do? You immediately give them a hug, you tell them you love them, you say, listen, I'm gonna go grab your kid tomorrow and get them to the rink so you can have a little bit of time off, right? So you can take care of yourself, do some self care. You're just empathetic and kind. And so like, that's all you have to do. And so like, but that's my point, is that there is an instantaneous in every single person sadness that sucks. I can't believe they got diagnosed with those cards. The exact opposite is mental illness. And so the basics of just that. I am so sorry, I love you. I'm here for you. And so when people think, and just to put again, like there's such a taboo word with suicide, like to explain to you what suicide is, some of the, I would say the strongest people on the planet are those that have died by suicide. And that's because they had to live a single day feeling how they were feeling, with being judged and labeled and shamed and ostracized by society. To put into perspective the journey of mental illness versus and once again, how society handles cancer is beautiful. It's empathetic. It's exactly the gold standard in the model that I want to state is that's what we need to do. And it shows that best of who we are as human beings. But when you think about it, you get diagnosed, everybody rallies around you and supports you. They're taking into chemotherapy, they're right next to you the entire way. If you survive, you're a fighter. If you pass away, you're a warrior. And you get life insurance and it's highlighted in your obituary and 5k races are done in your names and blah, blah, blah, right? You keep going throughout the whole thing, which is exactly what it should be. It's the exact opposite for mental illness. And so people. And then keep in mind, not only is it the exact opposite, then again, you don't get the life insurance. And guess what happens after you die? After you die, that awkwardness that I just explained to you is now transferred to the family, right? Look at every obituary of somebody who's passed, died by suicide. It's not mentioned. And guess what the family has to do for the rest of their life. They get to feel awkward now and shabled and lamed, and that's the family that this happened to. I don't know if there's any other worst disease in the entire planet, but that's the reality of what we have. So the short answer to your question, Give him a damn hug. Tell me. Love them. I came home once and my neighbor mowed my lawn. I've never in my entire life felt anything like that, ever. I didn't ask for it, but he didn't ask me, what can I do? He proactively was kind. And so that's the type of stuff that I would suggest is just like, you know, I'll never forget it. It took them 30 minutes. This is the best feeling I've ever had.
Lee MJ Elias [38:39 - 40:24]: John, I'll tell you this too, that one of the things right now that bugs me is that, you know, our, our media, and I mean all of it, social media, media, media, whatever. The, the, the, the national pulse is so negative from that standpoint. And what I always tell people is there are acts of kindness every day and you really don't have to look that hard to see them. If you want to see them, if you want to focus on the negative, you'll find it. You'll find it. Actually, it'll find you right but if you want to focus on the kindness and the positive, which you should do, there's got to be some form of balance with this. That's. That's out there, too. I do want to say one more thing on suicide. I know it's a tough subject for a lot of people, but just to give you an idea, at least from my perspective, how stigmatized this is, I was really fortunate to take a course on this with the NFL. And one of the parts of the course and audience, stick with me here, okay, that shocked me was, you have to practice asking someone, are you contemplating suicide? Okay, so that's one of the things we have to practice. And you're in a room with other people that most likely are not in that position. And even in that scenario, it was insanely hard to ask that question. I mean, in insanely, you. You stumble. You. You have such a hard time asking that question to somebody which literally could save. Potentially save their life just by asking someone. Because this. We still talked about this on other episodes. Statistics show that people contemplating suicide want to talk to someone, right? They're. They're typically in the position. They want to speak to someone. They want relief, John, as you're saying. And that question can put them on that path.
Jon Nelson [40:24 - 40:27]: There's not one negative to asking it. Not one.
Lee MJ Elias [40:27 - 40:28]: There's not one.
Jon Nelson [40:28 - 40:28]: But.
Lee MJ Elias [40:28 - 41:23]: But again, the apprehension I had to ask someone in a practice environment shocked me. I remember thinking, why am I having such a hard time asking this question now? Once you practice it a few times, it actually does get a little easier, and you get yourself to a place where you're. You're okay with it. And again, Mike, to your point, you made a really good point, like, well, what am I supposed to do? I'm not trained. I don't know. You don't really have to do too much. You just say, can I help you find someone? That can I help lead you somewhere to get some help? All right, and there are national hotlines now to help with that. Finally, right? That took a million years. But just on that point, people listening. If you suspect someone is really suffering or someone tells you that they're really suffering, I think you do have a responsibility. At least talk to them for a minute and say, what can I do for you? Like you said, John, give him a hug, something. Don't just look at them.
Jon Nelson [41:23 - 42:56]: So one thing that I will add about suicide is there's suicidal ideation is not suicide with attempt with intent. And so suicidal ideation is a very common, common, common symptom. And so the thing is, is if you do ask if somebody is suffering and somebody is hurt. Is hurting, it's like, do you have. Are you having any suicidal ideation? And the answer is very simple. They're going to come back with three things. Which is no, which is. Or yes, which is telling you where their disease is. It's like, well, listen, I'm here for you. I love you. You ever need a call or talk, anytime, I'm here. You're not a therapist. By doing that, you're a human being. And then the third answer is, I do have ideation, and I do have intent. I do have a plan. And that's when you help get them to a hospital. That's when you help that. So that's it. Those are the three things. It's not a word that triggers people. I would actually say the opposite. It was the only thing that I got while going through this. If somebody asked me that, it was the coziest feeling that I ever had. I was like, thank. I was like, they understand. I was like, oh, my God. Like, they get it. Like, so rather than it being something to put yourself away from, I'm like, they understand the hell that I'm going through, you know, And I'm like, dude, Like, I. I had one. One attachment to reality that was holding me on. So people have to understand that when. What this disease does is it controls your body. It literally sucks your soul out, Controls your body, and then the disease is what kills you. But the act of how it happens is what continues to get judged.
Lee MJ Elias [42:56 - 43:08]: Right? It's. It's amazing. And again, this. These conversations like this, these shows, like, episodes like this are so important. And I'll just say this to the hockey community. And then I do want to get into. Pulverize the stigma.
Jon Nelson [43:08 - 43:10]: Yeah, Hockey.
Lee MJ Elias [43:10 - 44:24]: Parents, I really do need you to listen to me. If you think this is not rampant in our game, I need you to go look up the stats of suicide in sports with youth athletes. It will both astonish you and make you realize why we're doing episodes like this. Because it is. It is more prevalent than you think, number one. And number two is you might not know that your children are dealing with this. You might know everybody, you know, another parent, the coaches, the refs, people involved, they're dealing with this. And we need to be aware, at minimum, at minimum, we need to be aware that this is a reality of youth sports and humanity. It's not, obviously, just hockey here. And, you know, just to turn it positive, I remember riding with My dad to the rink. You know, for whatever reason, When I was 14, 15 years old, I was kind of a sponge mentally. And I'll never forget, he said in the car, you know, hockey has been a vehicle for your growth as a human being. He used to say that. It just, it made a lot of sense to me. I was like, yeah, I'm learning so much. And you know, my new favorite Mike, I think you say this all the time, is that you'll go through more adversity in a weekend of hockey than you will in a year if you don't play hockey. And I think that's so true. Think that's so true.
Jon Nelson [44:24 - 44:25]: So true.
Lee MJ Elias [44:25 - 44:53]: Especially if you're a goalie out there. So I want to talk about the action you've taken. We talk about hockey, you've created. Pulverize the stigma again. I'm gonna show. Put the hoodies up. John was really great, sent us a couple of these. For those of you watching, you touted these as the most comfortable hoodie I would ever wear. And you were not wrong. These arely comfortable. It's not a forum. But those of you watching, you can see the logo. Pulverize. This does not break the stigma. Pulverize.
Jon Nelson [44:53 - 46:47]: So funny. Well, so the short version of me with pulverizes stigma is this is purely just, you know, a digital brand for me of double middle fingers to the world, to the, to society. My. I very feel very strongly about the fact that we've tried multiple stigma campaigns to date. And it's beautiful because they're attempting to try to stop this and it's not working. And so I'm going to be very aggressive. I'm going to be telling you, and literally the headline on my site, if you support the stigma mental illness in any way, you're an accessory to murder. And it's an absolute true statement. And so I hope that I can provoke some people who don't like that because guess what? They're going to remember it. They're going to remember me, and they're going to remember exactly what to do if one of their friends or family members or wife or husband or kids come to them and say, struggling. Like, I'm really struggling. And to think about the absurdity of this. It's acceptable for us to get our teeth cleaned twice a year. It's acceptable to go get a physical and get blood drawn. Why is every single person in the world not proactively getting therapy? Like, why not? Like, why don't we process our thoughts and our beliefs and our Emotions and all of the adversity that we're dealing with, all the stupidity of what we're seeing happening in youth sports, which I have a very specific opinion on. Because when you come at things from. I'm an empath, I'm a middle child. I feel everything. And when your emotions are destroyed for a decade and you come back and you see this most amazing sport that we are around and you see what's happening to it, I'm hyper. I fixate on that. Like, what are we doing right? Like, we got to make some changes here to make this experience better. And I could go deep into that with you, but I'm not sure you want to.
Lee MJ Elias [46:48 - 46:51]: That's up to you, man. Like I said, if you think it's going to help the listeners, go for it. Yeah.
Jon Nelson [46:52 - 52:26]: So. So here's my. My simplest perspective that I would say. I always try to take things to the highest level. And that's what I was saying with that picture of the kids standing up on the bench. I don't need to see anything else. I know what's going on. I know things are good, right? It's like, okay, cool, they're into it. They're. They're vibing, they're kicking ass, they're running through walls. You know, it's. It's going to be good in the most simplistic sense that I can tell you is it's all the challenges in youth sports, 95% plus are adults. And it all comes down to me, me, me. And so when I look at me, me, me, I look at it from. Let's start with coaches. So coaches, to me, the ones that are the challenge are, how in the world do you go into a season and put yourself in a division where you're going to win one game all year? Like, that's. That's on you. That's on your ego, right? And when you continue to see that, I'm like, what are we doing? We're not focusing on the kids. We're not focusing on the sport. And when you see that consistently happening, you're. You're in the. You're looking at this all wrong. And it's the same thing for. For tournaments. You guys know that you roll into some of these tournaments and you know, we're in a low a tournament. We have a AAA team in there. It's like, what are you doing? Like, what are we teaching the kids? You know, it's like, that's how I look at it from a coach standpoint, when I look at it From a referee standpoint, there is nobody that I'm kinder to than referees. Like referees, I mean, we hear you guys talk about all the time like, oh my God, like what, what a challenging job to have with everything that's going on and what they're doing. But the challenges, the two, the two issues I have from me, me, me standpoint is I can tell you when somebody shakes my hand before a game, if they're going to make the game about them. That's my challenge with refs is when, when the game gets made about them. And that happens in regards to they're the central focus. So that's a me, me, me, me, me, right? So they're the central focus of the game, not these kids, right. I'm never rude, but if, if that's something I'll absolutely point out. And then if there's kids that are, it's egregious. If there's kids that are getting almost injured and nothing's being called, like that's another time to talk through and try to figure it out. But again, that's the me me aspect there. And then when I look at parents, parents ruin this game. And that's 100% true statement. And so my last meeting that we had, I, I'm not joking you, I FBI profile down to the third cousin, every single family that I'm bringing onto my team because that's how incredibly important it is to make sure that we have the right culture, the right perspective and making this not a miserable season because it can happen. And so when you. I talk to coaches and I'm on these, you know, coaching clinics and they haven't experienced the challenging parent yet. Oh, it's coming and it, and it and it makes the season miserable. And so when you have the ability to not do that and not bring that on, it's best case scenario. And it's the same thing. The problem that every parent that I've had a challenge with, me, me, me, me, me, right? It's them and their kid. That's the only thing they're focused on. And so when you have that, it's a challenge, right? It's going to be something that takes down the whole culture of the team. And it's something that, you know, you end up taking your focus away from these wonderful parents, wonderful kids because you're dealing with the drama all the time. And so that's kind of my, my perspective as I think about all this and think about the kid on your team, the kid on your team. The first Week when I roll in and I see some me, me, me problem perspectives or personalities or traits, that's just like a natural perspective of they're trying to kick ass or I want to be the center. I want to be this. That's my number one job as a coach. My number one job is to figure out each of these 16 kids personalities, what makes them tick and coach to that individual kid. And so when I grab that kid, for instance, this year and I say, listen, there's two ways that this is going to go. You know, the one way is you're going to literally listen to every single thing I'm saying here and realize I'm trying to get the best out of you 100%. You want to succeed, you want to be awesome, you want to kick ass, this is how we do it. You 100% focus on having the best mentality that you can for this team. You don't focus on your individual stats, you focus on wanting run through a wall for every single one of these kids. And you make sure that you're not whining on the bench. You make sure that you're not, me, me, me, me, me. When they buy in, they're my favorite kids by the end of the year to see, you know, you see them smiling. You know, I had a kid in the beginning of the season this year during our parody tournament and you know, quiet, minor, well mannered kid, mild manner kid was like, hey, coach, I'm not going to be center of the shift. So and so wants to be center. I'm like, nope. I was like, no, we have you there for this exact reason, right? Like this is exactly where we're going with this. And I pulled that kid aside and I said, listen, I said I'm going to get you there, but here's what, I'm going to get you there. If you continue to work in this aspect, this aspect, you continue to have the right mindset. He's my best defensive center by the end of the year. But he earned it, right? He earned it. I'm not, I'm not taking a phone call from a parent saying little Bobby should be center, little Bobby should be center. The moment I get that phone call, that phone call ends, right? It's like, what are, what are we doing? Like what, why are we doing this? And so that to me is my, my simplistic version of all of this is, you know, let's, you know, I, you'll, you will laugh when I tell you this, but I, hopefully you'll laugh and you Won't think I'm completely bananas. But I started off my parent meeting this year literally the. For one of the first things I said is the, The. The running joke in kind of the hockey circles that I'm in is what's the best team in the world to coach? And it's a team of orphans.
Mike Bonelli [52:26 - 52:27]: Yeah.
Jon Nelson [52:27 - 53:25]: And every single. Every single parent looks at me and they're like, oh, man, he knows. He doesn't play. And that's the reality of it, is if you let in 1% of toxicity, and this is the number one thing that I try to say and try to get through to any single coach and use sports that's new, is if you let 1% of Texas toxicity in, you have to squash it immediately or the season turns to hell. And so listen, like, that's leadership. Like, if you're. If you're going to lead a team, you can't make all hundred of those people that are associated with the team happy. You're not an effective leader if you are right. But you can absolutely set really realistic boundaries and follow through on them. And that's what I tell them in the beginning of the season. Like, I'm gonna be super kind, fun, respectful. We're gonna have a blast. I was like, but if you come at me, I'll come right back at you with facts. And that's the only way that you can absolutely do this. Otherwise it turns into disaster. That's my. That's my thesis and perspective as somebody who's. Who's lived and died this for. For four years.
Lee MJ Elias [53:26 - 53:46]: Well, I, I agree with your perspective, professor. I'll put it that way. You know, it's so true what you said about the 1% of toxicity. You know, and I say this to coaches all the time. You're obviously coaching the game, but you're coaching the people, too. And, and if we're. We all agree on this, on this show, if you're not trying to create a better human, we're failing.
Jon Nelson [53:46 - 53:47]: We're failing big time.
Lee MJ Elias [53:47 - 54:00]: And the thing is about toxicity. Yeah. Like, I. In all of my work with teams from professional down right, I am fiercely defending, or I fiercely defend. Excuse me. The team bond that we create.
Jon Nelson [54:00 - 54:01]: Right.
Lee MJ Elias [54:01 - 54:31]: If any toxicity comes in that locker room, I attack it immediately. Coaches, I. I think you should do the same. In fact, I'm kind of telling you to do the same, because whether it's a parent, kid or anything, if you don't address it, it will fester, it will grow. I've never had a situation. This is Funny. Now I'm thinking about it. Never had a situation where it just went away. It doesn't just remedy itself. Some of them have maybe gotten a little quieter, but it doesn't go away. And if you don't address it, this, this comes all the way back to the stigma of everything. If you don't address it, nothing's going to happen.
Jon Nelson [54:31 - 54:32]: Right.
Lee MJ Elias [54:32 - 55:01]: And yet I'm gonna tell you, it can be uncomfortable to address it, but it's a lot easier if you do than if you don't. Right, Mike? I definitely want your perspective on this, too, because I, you know, you know, Mike's up in the New York, Connecticut area. No ego exists everywhere, Mike. It's not just up there. You know, how do you deal with things like this? Because I know you're pretty strict about it. And look, Mike is the king of. Of knowing what you're talking about. Mike has been texted on the bench in games about who should be playing defense. It. That. That story always makes me laugh, Mike.
Mike Bonelli [55:02 - 58:37]: Yeah, I think it's. I think it's. I mean, it's. It. I don't know. When you're, when you're building a team, it is. It is ideal, right, that if you could get it, if you could build that culture from the beginning and set that you set your objectives and have the ability to, you know, follow through with that. But I think it all. It becomes a, you know, an organizational, educational effort, right, to make that culture exist. It's just really hard to ask, you know, an individual parent. I mean, obviously John's, you know, adept to doing this, right? And you're using, you know, your own knowledge to kind of build that. That team. But I think for the, for the rest of us, you know, I think it's just about educating and knowing, you know, the team that you're picking ahead of time and not. And if you have a kid that's in your locker room and he has six different jerseys from the last six years, that's probably you. You know what you're gonna get like, okay, yeah, the kid's the leading goal scorer out there. I know, but you know what you're gonna get like, you know, it. It. It's just hard, though. At the youth hockey level, sometimes you get. You get your team, you try to manage that team as best you can. And not all of us have the opportunity to say, well, we're going to start picking and choosing players, because especially when you get to, like, a tier two, tier three, you know, different levels of teams, you know, there's Only so many kids left, right? And unfortunately, the kids that are left are the ones that need the most, most rehabilitation. They're the ones that need the most work. So I think if you, you know, if anything, I would take the advice of set your standards ahead of time, communicate those standards and then follow through with your communication and the standards you're applying and really have, I think, your biggest, you know, conversations have to go with your leadership team saying, listen, you, you've, you got to back me up on this and you have to help me on this and you have to be able to support me in, in, in this program because I can't do this by myself. If you're going to say, well, listen, we, we appreciate that John's disciplinarian and he wants this and he, he feels this is your role, you know, but, but we don't back him up. So it's, it's hard, you know, it's, it's, you know, and I do, I do like the analogy. I mean, Bob Mancini had said that a long time ago. You're right. In a, in a USA Hockey seminar about, you know, the best team he'd like to have as a team of, of orphans. And, But I think you are going about it the right way. The fact is we don't have orphans and thank God we have great families and they're the ones have to pay the bill. And I think having, having the ability to put really good people around each other. And if I was going to take that, you know, that, that advice, I'd say, listen this. Coaches, pick your teams based on the player and the family. Don't just pick your teams based on the fact that might be their best. Maybe they're the best, you know, the kid that can go around the cones the fastest and, you know, just under. If you really want a real team now, if you just want to be a, you know, a bomb squad and go out and blow the doors off of people and pick kids that don't, don't, you know, kind of mirror your values and the other values of the people you have in your team. And, you know, you get. What did you say last week? You get what you get. You don't get upset. You just, you deal with it. You know, that's, that's what you're dealt with. But educating, following through, setting these standards, we talk about that a lot on the show about, you know, that's how you have to build your program and then you pay with the consequences of, you know, maybe at the end of the year. You haven't won many games, but hopefully you have really, really great people.
Lee MJ Elias [58:37 - 1:00:39]: Mike, I'm going to add to that, too. Just for the coaches specifically listening, and parents, you should know this, too. We have done a lot of work, work in the space of team building and culture building. And I can tell you with. With extreme confidence that if you don't know what to do with that, if you're a coach out there, that goes, okay, I understand we need culture, but I'm really not sure on how to do that. It can be done from top to bottom, and I mean, including coaching education, actually doing things with the kids in less than an hour, a week of investment of time. All right, We've proven that. All right. Again, I would say if only there was a thing out there that would help coaches with that. Keep your eyes tuned to this space for that. But my point to you people is this, is that it does not take that much time to go online to learn, to research. What do I need to do? I'm telling you, 20 minutes of research. 20 minutes with the kids. All right? You can be pretty well prepared, right, and plan something for the season that's going to allow them to bond and learn and understand. But you gotta. You gotta take the initiative to do that. And coaches, look, I'm not gonna lie to you. Unfortunately, at this time, that's not something that's provided to you. This is something you're gonna have to go out and search on your own. And I'm. I'm gonna promise you that if you do, you'll be in a far better position than if you didn't. Okay. And it's one of those things, again, we're not just talking mental health when it comes to team building. It's a big part of it, though. And that's why episodes like this need to happen, because we don't pulverize the stigma behind it. Pun intended. All right. We're not going to make. Make any headway on it. And. And again, we are at a pretty critical juncture right now where a. I think the stigma is being broken every day more and more. But we're also living in a society with human highlight reels, and kids are watching these things and ridiculous amounts of screen time that kind of works against it. So now. Now is the time to stand up and do something about it. You know, John, you're doing that well.
Jon Nelson [1:00:39 - 1:01:28]: In one of the things that you said, Mike, that resonates and I would say is the biggest challenge is the follow through. So following through is the key, and it's hard to follow through, but my gosh, if it doesn't, it's noticed and seen by everybody. And you know, it's. It's so imperative. And when I take it one step further, and I saw one thing that you were talking about last week, Lee, which was the game misconduct after the game for basically poor behavior. So let's. Let's take it a step further. You know, when I. When I look at what are we, I just always say like my. Our hockey jacket. Great, dude. He always says, what are we doing, boys? Like, what are we doing here? And I try to take that to my mentality of, you know, we all know that we all. We all know the problems, but we keep doing it right? And so that's the question I have. So let me give you an example.
Lee MJ Elias [1:01:29 - 1:01:31]: Of insanity, by the way, dude.
Jon Nelson [1:01:31 - 1:03:19]: Exactly right. So, like, let's look at it on its most. And that's one of the reasons I enjoy this pulverize the stigma stuff is everything I say, it's factual, right? You can't prove me wrong. And then when you sit there and you think about it with youth sports, you know, my wife is awesome, but she's not like obsessed with hockey, right? And so our playoffs were last weekend and they started Saturday at 3:00pm by noon at. By noon on Monday, the winner had played five games. They had to take off school on Monday. So five games in less than 48 hours. And that was. Would have been the fourth day of school that we missed. This is for a tier 2A hockey, you know, and it's really hard when you're having a conversation with somebody who doesn't live in dream, live and die this. To make that sake make sense, right? My wife's like, what. What are you talking about? Like, he's missing hockey again, right? Like, that's a challenge. And then when you sit there, another way that I'll explain to you how we take this for like, which is part of our identity in regards to. We're used to it. Take a neighbor with you to a game who's never been to a youth hockey game. Take a friend, take a cousin, take a. And look at their face after they leave. Every single one of them is like, what was that? Like, oh my God, why are people behaving like that? We get so used to it. Like, I have. I'm not joking you. We had. Police called the rink. Like the rinks were games. We were at five times this year. Five. Five. We had, we had. We had multiple Parents wanting to fight. We had parents thrown out. I had multiple parents waiting for me to kick the coach's ass. Like, but, but we, but we let it happen. Like, so my question, like my perspective from a rink, we all see the signs, right? Your poor behavior, you're going to be out in the parking lot. But they're not.
Mike Bonelli [1:03:20 - 1:03:20]: Yeah.
Jon Nelson [1:03:20 - 1:04:00]: And so my question is, is let's take your, let's take the thing that you guys talked about last week. We're leaving the ice, our first playoff game and there's a grown adult looking at our 11 and 12 year old kids telling them to shut the F up. That's not uncommon. No, no. So, so, so when I, when we, so why aren't all of these people just banned from, from ranks? Like, let's just ban them. Like, I don't understand, like what's the rational argument to keep somebody who's telling 11 and 12 year old kids that shut the F up or physically abusing a parent or physically in verbally assaulting a ref. Like why are they in the buildings? But they are. It's been going on for years. That's my whole point. That's my whole point.
Christie Casciano [1:04:03 - 1:04:06]: There was exactly scenario.
Jon Nelson [1:04:06 - 1:04:10]: So let's change it. Like why can't we change it? Like it's just doesn't get changed.
Lee MJ Elias [1:04:10 - 1:04:36]: Listen, there was an episode we did not that far ago where I, I was critical of a John, I gotta be careful what I say. I was critical of a local organization to my area and I said this is what happened. And I got about seven texts from people saying it's them. Right? And they were right. Every one of them was right. So it's ridiculously noticeable. First off.
Jon Nelson [1:04:36 - 1:04:36]: Yeah.
Lee MJ Elias [1:04:36 - 1:04:46]: You know, I'll tell you this. You know, in my position as a coach, sometimes, you know, I'm not always on the bench with, with some of the teams that I work with and I sit in the crowd and man, I'd rather be on the bench.
Jon Nelson [1:04:46 - 1:04:47]: It's.
Mike Bonelli [1:04:47 - 1:06:20]: Yeah, but this is the reason, this is the reason why, you know, you were in this little bubble. This, the reason you can't grow the sport is because when you watch a game on national television and for the first nine minutes or nine seconds, there's three fights. And the only thing talked about is the fights and not the skill of the players. And again, that's pro hockey. I love it. I think it's great. Go nuts. I would beat the hell out of each other. But when you. But all that happens with a bunch of eight youth parents and players, the Same that same weekend. I guarantee you if you had video from every hockey rink in North America the following weekend there how to have been more fights, more instigation, more testosterone, all that stuff had to be elevated. I bet, I bet you if you looked at the statistics of that weekend past the series of USA Canada in four nations, I can guarantee you that the amount of misconducts and players thrown out of games went up 50%. But we don't discipline it. And it's the governing bodies, it's the organizations, it's the people that we allow on our benches without any kind of repercussions, without any kind of, you know, discipline. And they don't get kicked out and they don't get. And, and people. And all of a sudden you got two coaches shaking each other's hands and hugging each other after a game when both of them were the biggest jackasses in the world. All you got to do is spend 16 hours, you know, on Live Barn in one year and you'll find, you know, literally criminals.
Lee MJ Elias [1:06:21 - 1:06:21]: Yeah.
Mike Bonelli [1:06:21 - 1:07:03]: You know, you know, videotaped doing these things and we don't do anything about it. And I think it just comes down to the fact that neither nobody wants to talk about it, or people really don't care about growing the game. They care about growing their pockets and having an unrealistic, you know, expectation of, you know, maybe who they are or who their kids are. I mean, it's a, it's such a, it's such a huge, you know, cavernous space between doing a sport to teach these values and then doing everything we can to show these values don't matter. And it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's crazy, but that's, that's another seven episodes.
Jon Nelson [1:07:04 - 1:07:56]: I asked my 14 year old on the way home after our last game of the season where two parents yet again got thrown out. The game had to be stopped. And I'm, I just said to him, I'm like, what, what are your feelings about this? Like, is this, is this something that impacts you? Is this. And he just looked at me in car talk. I call it car talk. And he just looked at me and just said, oh, it's totally normal. Like, how sad is that? It's the norm. And so, Christy, to your point, like it's been happening and it's, it's so hard to logically, logically, it's so hard to logically state. How does this dude say this to 11, 12 year old kid and still come to the rink? The Next day. But like, how do you. I mean, other than. Other than actually having like rink police to make sure people don't come in. I don't know the solution, but all I know right now is it's. What we're doing is the same exact hamster wheel. And it's not changing.
Christie Casciano [1:07:57 - 1:07:58]: Correct.
Lee MJ Elias [1:07:58 - 1:08:01]: It's been an amazing episode.
Mike Bonelli [1:08:03 - 1:08:04]: Such a downer right now.
Lee MJ Elias [1:08:04 - 1:08:05]: Yeah, right.
Mike Bonelli [1:08:05 - 1:08:06]: Oh, man.
Lee MJ Elias [1:08:06 - 1:08:14]: I know how to finish this up. I think. You know Lightning round. We've been Lightning round. I think it's time for you to do the Lightning round. Are you ready for the Lightning?
Christie Casciano [1:08:14 - 1:08:15]: Bring it up, baby.
Jon Nelson [1:08:15 - 1:08:16]: Let's bring it up.
Christie Casciano [1:08:16 - 1:08:18]: Here we go. You ready, John?
Jon Nelson [1:08:18 - 1:08:19]: Let's go.
Christie Casciano [1:08:19 - 1:08:29]: That's the first Lightning round question. Quick, tell me your favorite hockey memory. It can be when you were a kid, when you're an adult, whatever, name it.
Jon Nelson [1:08:29 - 1:08:47]: Stanley Cup Finals. My father took me out of Little League baseball. We spent 150 bucks scalping tickets for the Pittsburgh Penguins Stanley cup finals game. And I saw yogurt have a. Have a game winning goal. I don't remember exactly where he cut across the middle and smoked it.
Lee MJ Elias [1:08:47 - 1:08:48]: 91 or 92.
Mike Bonelli [1:08:48 - 1:08:49]: Awesome.
Jon Nelson [1:08:49 - 1:08:51]: 91. That was his first year. Yeah.
Lee MJ Elias [1:08:51 - 1:08:54]: It's a Flyers fan. I can't live through you.
Jon Nelson [1:08:54 - 1:08:55]: So that one.
Lee MJ Elias [1:08:57 - 1:09:05]: All right, I'll jump into the next one. I think you might have answered it already, but if you could skate with any NHL player, past or present, who would it be?
Jon Nelson [1:09:05 - 1:09:05]: Not.
Lee MJ Elias [1:09:05 - 1:09:07]: Not lunch. You could skate with this person.
Jon Nelson [1:09:07 - 1:10:17]: I go back to humanity and character. So Mark Andre Fleury. There's not many NHL guys that go around that retire and the other stadiums are celebrating them. So that tells me a lot about his character. And he's fun and he likes to have a blast and he does practical jokes. That's what we do all the time, man. Like I'm making these kids laugh and having fun and they're busting my chops. Let me give you an example of that. I know it's Lightning round, but can I give you. So here's my example of that. Like one of my funny lines that I do is, you know, once you get the peewee, the moment they get the peewee, parents out of the locker room, kids are dressed themselves. I don't think you can do it. They'll do it. And then within a week, they're doing it right. You got to give them some independence, right? So the ones with rolly bags, I bust their chops. It's just good, you know, good humor. I'm like Ah, come on, man. Carry your bag, you know? And this kid comes in. I'll never forget it. It's like one month into the season. This is the banter, this is the fun. This is the camaraderie that you can get in the Sport. And he's 11 years old, right. And he's walking at me. I'm talking to somebody. I'm like, ah. I like everything about this kid, except for one thing. And he knows I'm busting his chops about the bag. And he just looks at me and he goes, that I'm better looking than you. Like, how great is that?
Lee MJ Elias [1:10:17 - 1:10:17]: Right?
Jon Nelson [1:10:17 - 1:10:23]: Like, like, like, that's. That's personality. So Mark Andre Fleury, because of his character.
Lee MJ Elias [1:10:23 - 1:10:27]: Yeah. And there's a 50, 50 chance he puts tape on your skates before you get out there.
Jon Nelson [1:10:27 - 1:10:29]: Exactly. Right. You don't know what you're gonna get.
Lee MJ Elias [1:10:29 - 1:10:32]: Mike, you have your run down there. You want to ask the last one? It's a good one.
Mike Bonelli [1:10:32 - 1:10:39]: I'll ask you because I'm in the process of doing this now. What's your. What's your favorite Go to Pump up song before the big game?
Jon Nelson [1:10:40 - 1:11:24]: Oh, my gosh. You know, it's so funny. The kids. The kids have their absolute, you know, go tos. And it goes on. There was a corn song, of all things. I actually can't even remember the name of it, but we used to play it all the time. Korn. And it's more like heavy metal bass. But they would get to this point where it kind of drop, and all of the kids would do, like, head. You know, what's it called? Do this. And it was. I have a video of them doing it in slow motion from three years ago. One of the coolest memories that I have right from the season. So just little stuff like that. I mean, they have their own victory song afterwards. I usually give the locker room to them in that sense, you know, it's like, you guys own it, make it yours and have fun. It's yours. Until you. Until. Show me you can't have it.
Mike Bonelli [1:11:24 - 1:11:29]: Yeah, my. My challenge is usually how can I get the F bombs out of it, But. Yeah, but usually it's.
Jon Nelson [1:11:29 - 1:11:30]: It's. It's hard.
Mike Bonelli [1:11:30 - 1:11:37]: It's hard. There's not a lot. There's not a lot of songs up there the kids like that don't have explicit connotations in there.
Lee MJ Elias [1:11:38 - 1:11:48]: I think that song was falling away from me, the one you're talking. Because I think I know exactly what you're talking about. We're from the same era here. For me, it was always understanding, oh.
Jon Nelson [1:11:48 - 1:11:53]: That was the first song I ever heard in a concert, man. That was it. In the. In the igloo. In the igloo.
Lee MJ Elias [1:11:53 - 1:12:42]: And you know what? They still play those songs in. In locker rooms, people. So they're timeless. Okay, all right, we'll see how many of the songs from today survive into the future here. John, this is. This really has been an impactful episode. And, Mike, you said it earlier, not. Not every episode has to be bright and happy and jumpy. And, you know, this one was. Was serious, but it was also really impactful and very educational. And we talked about stuff that has to be talked about. We have to have these conversations and. And for the audience listening, you probably made it to this point. You know, we appreciate you because this is what it's all about. This is, you know, one of the reasons we made this show to support that community that's out there that wants to do better. If you're listening to the show, you want to do better, right? And you love hockey or you think my jokes are great, which there's nobody listening that does that, but that's okay. John, really great episode. Check out Pulverize the Sigma. I'm gonna help show up the hoodie again.
Jon Nelson [1:12:42 - 1:12:43]: Boom.
Lee MJ Elias [1:12:43 - 1:12:46]: All right, how can we find you online? Is it just at Pulverize the Stigma?
Jon Nelson [1:12:46 - 1:13:08]: Yeah, My email is jonolverzestigma.com and, you know, I get. Fortunately get to spend the majority of my work role all in mental illness and share my passion with hockey. And just so fortunate to be here. I can't tell you, Christy, Mike Lee, how much I appreciate the opportunity to be here. And let's keep growing this amazing game that we're so fortunate to be a part of.
Christie Casciano [1:13:08 - 1:13:13]: Well, we appreciate some big steps toward that goal. Thank you, John.
Jon Nelson [1:13:13 - 1:13:14]: Thank you.
Lee MJ Elias [1:13:14 - 1:13:57]: All right, my friends, that's going to do it for this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Get a full episode and a lightning round. Kind of a bonus today for Christy Casciano Byrne, Mike Benelli, and John Nelson. I'm Liam Jay Elias. We'll see you on the next episode of Our Kids Play Hockey. Take care, everybody. We hope you enjoyed this edition of Our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value or wherever you're listening. Whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, Our Kids Play Hockey Dot com. Also make sure to check out our children's book, When Hockey Stops atwhen hockey stops dot com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of our Kids Play Hockey, and we'll see you on the next episode.
Jon Nelson [1:14:02 - 1:14:02]: Sa.
