Our Kids Play Goalie - Sami Jo Small on Goaltending, Grit, and Growth

In this week's episode of Our Kids Play Goalie, Lee Elias, Christy Casciano-Burns, and Mike Bonelli welcome a true icon in women’s hockey—Sami Jo Small, three-time Olympian, two-time gold medalist, and a lifelong advocate for inclusion, purpose, and team unity.

From being the only girl on the street in Winnipeg playing road hockey with her brother’s friends, to starting in net for Team Canada, Sami’s path wasn’t just unconventional—it was groundbreaking.

We explore:

• Her early days as “the girl goalie” and how inclusion, support, and street hockey shaped her identity.
• Why playing in boys’ leagues taught her resilience—and what we can all learn from being “different” on the team.
• What her parents got right about letting her play—and how small decisions from adults can shape a child’s future.
• Stanford, mechanical engineering, and club hockey on a men’s team—how she kept joy in the game without the pressure of being seen.
• How she made Team Canada almost by accident, thanks to a chance meeting, a bold leap of faith, and one coach who believed in her.
• How it felt to be told she wouldn’t start in the 2002 Olympic gold medal game—and how that moment shaped her understanding of roles, leadership, and humility.
• The myth of the “one goalie system” and how goalies can and should support each other.
• What it really means to be part of a championship team—and how we can teach this to our kids now, at every level of youth hockey.
• Why joy—not ambition—should drive a young athlete’s development.
• Her daughter’s decision to leave hockey and how Sami learned to support a completely different kind of journey.

This episode is a masterclass in humility, perspective, and purpose. Whether you’re raising a goalie, coaching one, or are one, Sami’s story will change the way you see the game—and the people in it.

📚 Also mentioned: The Role I Played by Sami Jo Small – a must-read memoir about elite sports, adversity, and identity.

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Transcript

Lee MJ Elias [0:07 - 1:12]: Hello hockey friends and families around the world and welcome to a special edition of our Kids play Goalie. I'm Lee Elias, joined by Christy Cashiano Burns and Mike Benelli. And our guest today is a true icon in the world of hockey. A three time Olympian, two time Olympic gold medalist, five time world champion. I've been watching a lot of WWE wrestling. Sorry. And a trailblazer for women in the sport, Sammy Jo Smalls journey is nothing short of inspiring. Starting as a young girl playing in boys leagues in Winnipeg, she went on to earn a mechanical engineering degree from Stanford University where she also played on the men's hockey team. Her resilience and determination led her to become a founding member of the Canadian Women's Hockey League and later serve as the general manager of the Toronto Furies and president of the Toronto 6 beyond the rink 6. Sammy Jo is a renowned motivational speaker and author of the memoir the Role I Played, offering insights into the dynamics of elite teams and the importance of every role within them. We're thrilled to have Sammy Jo with us today to share her experiences, lessons and advice for young goalies and young players and young families and young coaches. Sammy, welcome to our club. 

Sami Small [1:12 - 1:17]: Thank you so much. I love that intro. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. It's so great to be here with you all. 

Lee MJ Elias [1:17 - 2:01]: It's great to have. Look, we try and bring the energy and I'll tell you, like, anytime I get to read an intro of, you know, world champion, Olympic champion, I mean, it's just, it's, it makes my job easy, I'll tell you that. But it also, it also speaks to the prestigiousness of the career and the journey that you've had. And really when we try and deliver for the, for the listeners here, your experience, right, and the other guests too, it really helps pave that road for the journey of youth hockey. And we always say there's no direct path, right, but we can learn from everybody else's path. So that's, that's what we're trying to do here. I want to take us back here, Sammy, all the way back to your early days. Let's start there in Winnipeg. What drew you to goalie and how did your experience in boys leagues shape your development? 

Sami Small [2:02 - 5:40]: Yeah, I'm, I've, well, I'm a longtime listener, first time caller, so excited to be here and tell my journey, but I've listened to a lot of the other ones talk about their journeys when they first started playing. I love that you've had a lot of my teammates on Here. And I love. I love hearing the origin stories. So my origin story, I think, is like, a lot of women of my age bracket, I'm almost 50, so when I was growing up here in Ontario, where I live now, there was girls hockey. So some girls that were of my age that played, they were able to do that. But when I was growing up in Winnipeg, that didn't exist. So I never saw another girl play, in fact, until I was probably in my mid teens. So as a little girl, I followed in my brother's footsteps. He played road hockey. That was kind of how I first was initiated into the sport. And the game happened in front of our house. So I would often. My brother would rush home from school and throw his backpack in the house and then he would rush down to the street hockey game. And, um, I just so badly wanted to be part of that. I wanted to be part of the big boys in the neighborhood and. And it just looked like so much fun. So I think my brother initially was clearly very reluctant. I mean, who wants to have their little sibling, let alone their little sister coming to play with them and their buddies? But eventually he gave in or. I don't know if my parents just got mad at him and he was forced to, but yeah, they stuck me a net. That's kind of. I feel like a lot of the girls of my age group, that's what happened is we were forced to be goalies. I fell in love with goaltending right away. I think I always wanted to be the goalie. In fact, my very first pair of pads, my mom helped me make them out of her old pair of corduroys that we just stuffed with stuffing. And I loved making my own masks. We didn't really have helmets back then, but I'd make them out of wire and cardboard. So I love the construction. I think that's what eventually led me to being an engineer. But my parents didn't allow me to play real ice hockey as a goalie initially, but they did agree to register to me as a player. They didn't know their background is not really in hockey, and so they didn't know that it was really unacceptable for girls to play hockey. So when we went down to my local community center, they registered me very innocently because they're registering their son for hockey. And there's a lot of, I think, naivete on their part. And there was a lot. When I went to my first practice, I was playing outdoor on the outdoor rinks in Winnipeg with all these guys that I played street hockey With. So for me, it was totally normal, but I think my parents were kind of waiting for the other little girls to show up, like, where. Where are all these other little girls? And it really wasn't until the parents kind of asked my parents about, you know, like, well, why is she out there? Girls can't play hockey. And my parents very innocently were like, but why that? I think the best answer they got was, well, your daughter, she can't play in the NHL. My parents were like, your son is five, and he can't play in the NHL either. So what's mattered, right? And I think that that's where my love. I fell in love with it just on those outdoor rinks in Winnipeg and just being, you know, I say one of the guys, but really just part of the game, you know, just. I fell in love with play. And it wasn't goaltending. It wasn't hockey specifically. It was just play. It could have been any sport. I could have been in any country. I think I just wanted to compete. I wanted to be out there, and I just wanted to be around others that were doing that as well. 

Mike Bonelli [5:40 - 5:55]: Yeah. Do you think. Do you think that having the older brothers was forced you into playing that, or was it just. It just. It was easier for you to play goalie or you just were attracted to it? I mean, it sounds like you're way ahead of the. The Mylac street hockey set. So. 

Sami Small [5:55 - 6:38]: Way, way, way before that. Yeah, that's a good question. I've thought about that a lot. Like, if I had not joined a group of older boys, would I a. Would I have been forced to go in that and would I fall in love with it? I'm not sure. But, you know, I was that kid that was jumping up and down on my bed, doing the moves that I saw in Hockey Night in Canada, you know, So I. I used to sit there and watch Hockey Night in Canada and draw the goalies as best I could. But that was kind of my. Like, when we got hockey cards, I would just like, keep the goalies and I would put them up on my. I would put tape on them and draw on the goal, on the goalie cards. So those ones are all ruined from the 70s, which would be worth millions now. But my own fault. 

Lee MJ Elias [6:39 - 6:42]: It worked out, Sammy, just. I'm just saying it worked out okay. 

Sami Small [6:43 - 7:28]: Something about the position, something about the equipment. Like, I was really drawn to the equipment, but I also think being the only girl, it allowed me to be a part of the game with realizing I was very Different. So it allowed me to play. It kind of gave it an okay for the boys to allow me to play because now they had a goalie. And so then I automatically got this support system. And I think that just became intertwined. But Mike, I don't really know to your answer. I mean, I loved a lot of other sports where I played out. I wasn't always the goalie in other sports. I played soccer, I played water polo. I played team handball. I wasn't the goalie in those other sports. So I don't know what it was about hockey, goaltending. But yeah, maybe forced voluntold, maybe savvy. 

Christie Casciano [7:28 - 7:47]: Did you always feel like you had to prove yourself? Was there a lot more pressure on you being a goalie? There's a ton of pressure. It's inherent in the position. And now you're a girl in a league that's mostly filled with boys playing. I can't imagine the resilience you must have had. 

Sami Small [7:47 - 11:20]: I think you're so right, Christie, that I don't think I saw it because it was my life. Right. I don't think I realized just how different I was. I had parents that were super supportive of what I was doing, and so they encouraged me to do what I loved. And I didn't really realize that what I was doing was so different. But I think the resilience with coming being, being different, and I think that's a good message for all of us to receive that there are. Maybe you're that person that is different in the game, or maybe there are people within your team that are different and that could be gender based, that could be race based ethnicity, that could be religion, that could be anything that there is. You can either feel included or not feel included. And I think why I was able to continue on in the game is that the people that played with me made me feel included. And, you know, anyone could have made it really miserable for me in those younger years and I would have not enjoyed it and I would have probably stepped away and gone to another game. So I think it is beholden to everybody else, I think, to make sure that that person feels included. And so I always did. As I grew older, though, Christie, I did feel the pressure. I shouldn't even say pressure. I think it. I felt like I had my. I was representing my entire gender. And that wasn't really because I was the goalie. It was because I felt like any faults or any falter that I would encounter that that would be looked at, that all girls can't Play hockey because I was the only one doing that. I felt like I was representing this thing that was bigger than me. So I think in a way it pushed me to be better so that every single practice I felt like I had eyes on me all the time. Like, Mia Hamm has a really great, great quote about. You know, it's the. It's about what the athlete does away, away from the eyes, something like that, away from people watching. I never felt like there was never somebody watching. Like, I always felt like even when I went to my local community center, I was always known as the girl. Like, there's always that tagline on me. So I always felt that. And I think that lent itself to goaltending because then there was never really a moment that was too big. I never really got nervous in situations, I think, because I had been prepared for that for a long time. But I do think that when people are coming into the game for the first time, and up here in Canada, we have a lot of new Canadians that are coming into the game for the first time. And parents might, you know, you get these big, wide eyed saucer parents who just have no idea that how to navigate the world of hockey. And I think it's up to all of us, all the rest of us to make sure that those people feel included and feel like they have help navigating this. And for the kids that are coming in to it for the first time, they might be the first ones in their entire family that have ever played this sport. And there's a lot more to hockey than just simply the skills on the ice. Right? We all know that it's about how to be in the dressing room, how to be a good teammate, how to make sure that you're uplifting the people around you. And I think it takes an entire community to make sure that everybody feels welcome in the game. Because I think hockey is really one of those games right now that a lot of people don't feel welcome. And I think it takes all of us to make sure, because I was that person that I feel like I was very lucky I made it through the system. But there was a lot of girls that didn't make it through the system. 

Christie Casciano [11:21 - 11:24]: What a great message, Sammy. Thank you for sharing that. 

Lee MJ Elias [11:24 - 12:44]: Yeah, I was going to say too, Sammy, and it's a great question, Christie, that I appreciate you sharing that perspective because I think one of the things that happens or doesn't happen, I should say a lot, is that, you know, I think most people, most people in the game want to do the right thing. I believe that. Right. And I think that what we forget sometimes is it's okay. This is the first half. Okay. Not to understand someone else's experience. Right. I think people are so quick. I, I understand. No, you don't. And that's, that's okay. Okay. Like, I'll never be a woman goalie hockey player. That's just not in the cards for me. And I'm not going to act like, oh, I get your journey. I don't. I didn't experience it. But you sharing it is important. And what you, What I took away from what you just said, which was so huge, which is. I mean, I felt like the whole world was on, on top of me here. Right. That's the perspective. I don't think as individuals, we think about enough of what might this other person be experiencing. And that's why it's so important that we, we have shows like this that share those experiences because you never know what someone else is going through. And I think that a lot of times hockey families, I'm not saying this is wrong, but we hyper focus on our own situation and that we make that our whole world and we have no idea what other families are going through and for all the reasons you listed. So I really appreciate you sharing that perspective. 

Sami Small [12:45 - 13:56]: Yeah. And I also think that, you know, people have asked me, what are some of your regrets growing up? And I think for me it was that I didn't realize that most of my peers who were women that I went to school with, that I played on these other teams with, wanted to play the game. I just assumed they didn't want to play. I thought I was the only girl that wanted to play hockey. I didn't realize the challenges, the obstacles that they encountered. The parents that said no, the coaches that wouldn't take them on teams, the. The sports centers that wouldn't even sell them skates, hockey skates, because they could only. They would only sell them figure skates. So just so many challenges and obstacles that all of these women face that I didn't realize until probably my late teens of how many of my friends wished that they could have had the same journey. And, you know, I never really stopped to look around to think, you know, how can I help all these women be a part of the game? And now so many of those women, I play so much rec hockey now as an older adult, have come into the game as older women. And that's just so great to see, but it's just so such a travesty that These women didn't have that opportunity growing. Growing up. 

Mike Bonelli [13:56 - 14:32]: I mean, it's so odd because it sounds like you're 150 years old. The way you're describing it really wasn't that long ago, but the explosion of women's hockey now, though, and, you know, maybe, maybe. Can you just speak a little bit? Because we have so many parents of young girls on this program that get to listen to, you know, great leaders like you and people and that had parents that went through this at a time where. I mean, where do you think your parents got that support to say, this is fine for my daughter? We love it. Like. Like, I'm. Yeah, I'm looking like, where. Why weren't they sitting around going, what are we doing? Why is she the only girl out here? 

Sami Small [14:33 - 17:54]: You know what's funny is I never stopped to think about that until I wrote my book. And as I was writing my book, I kind of thought about, well, why. Why my parents. My mom, she played a little bit of sports when she was younger, probably till about the age of 10. She water skied, she swam. And then girls in her family just weren't allowed to continue playing sports, so she never got to play. I don't know if that's part of the reason, if she felt like she maybe wanted to do these things, but also in speaking with my dad, because I think a lot of times the women in our lives tend to be very supportive, and of certain ages, you tend to be. Depending on the year, you know, often men will be making the decision in the household. So back then, you know why I look to my dad? Because like most of his peers, most of the men were not allowing their daughters to play sports. So I asked him, when I wrote the book, like, what made you be okay with your. Your girl being the only girl at. In hockey, especially like a contact sport like hockey. And he told me a story about his. He had an older sister, and she was three years older than him. And when they were little and they played kickball or they played sickball outside, or they played these. His sister was the best at all of these sports. And his sister was never allowed to keep playing at the local community center. She just could. She'd basically beat the boys in the neighborhood parks and then. But she couldn't be on any of the teams. And so because he had that experience, because he had a sister that was good at sports who wanted to play and not allowed, I think that that showed him that, well, why can't my daughter play? And he had a lot of things. Well, both my parents, but my, my dad specifically had to deal with parents telling their. Him that I would, my, my uterus would drop out if I played hockey. And he, I was six. You know, like, it's my dad who, like, how do you navigate that world? How do you can't Google things like what does he. What do you know? You know, like. So luckily they, I think they had each other. And my dad was one of those people who was very gregarious, very outgoing, and I think he made sure to make friends with all of the other parents. He was always telling jokes. And then my mom was kind of the more the nervous mom that would go get coffee when things were close. But neither one of them were the parents that I think were huge advocates, I would say of me necessarily. They weren't the ones saying my daughter needs to be out there. But behind the scenes, they certainly had to deal with a lot of battles that no parents should really have to do. But yeah, I mean, I, I really, when I'm telling stories, I, I say they're the real heroes of the story because they allowed me to play. They saw joy in their daughter's eyes and they wanted to continue that. That's all it was. It wasn't because I wanted to play in the NHL. It wasn't because I wanted to play AAA boys hockey. It was simply because they saw joy. And I think as parents, sometimes that's the hardest thing to encourage because it's out of our realm. Like I said, neither one of them were hockey people, so they didn't know how to navigate that world, but they just wanted to keep that joy. And so I think they're the real heroes of the story. 

Christie Casciano [17:54 - 18:01]: And seeing how far you took it, I mean, all the way to the Olympics, they, they made the right call, didn't they? 

Lee MJ Elias [18:02 - 19:02]: It just shows. It just shows again and again. We were just joking. We've been doing the show for a long time that, that joy is the source. I mean, again, there's no one path. Samy, you're proving that in this episode, right? We've never interviewees where the path was identical, but it all starts with that. It all starts with the joy. And I always say to the parents, parents, you can accidentally look past that joy and kind of, kind of almost imprint your own. My kid's not happy. Well, you're not happy. Your kid's having a great time. And, and I, I, we, we said this on the show so many times. We encourage parents, ask your kid, not after a bad game or A bad situation. Ask them, you know, after the season, a few weeks, hey, do you love playing hockey still? If the answer is yes, parents, you're doing it right. You're doing it right. That's the only answer you need. If they come back and say, I hate this, you have to have a different conversation. And by the way, as a coach, Mike and I consist. Our goal is for them to never, ever say that. Believe it or not. Right. It's. No. 

Sami Small [19:02 - 19:25]: I can tell you a story that our daughter came to us and said she doesn't like it. And so she's now 9. And I can tell you that's the hardest thing to hear as a parent. You know, we. We. My husband and I coached her. We. She had other coaches. She. And she came to us in the summer, two summers ago, and said, mommy, like, I don't. I don't want to play hockey anymore. 

Lee MJ Elias [19:25 - 19:25]: Yeah. 

Sami Small [19:25 - 19:34]: And I said to her, I was like, mommy really loves coaching. Like, will you do it for one more year? Like, I really love, like, that U9 level. That's my jam. 

Lee MJ Elias [19:34 - 19:34]: I. 

Sami Small [19:35 - 19:42]: We had the squishmallows. It was a great team. And she said to me, she's like, mommy, for you, I'll do it. 

Mike Bonelli [19:42 - 19:43]: Oh. 

Sami Small [19:43 - 20:33]: And I was like, oh, okay. This is not the. This is not the right reason. Right. And so sometimes we do have kids, and I think this is a good message for everybody to hear that sometimes hockey isn't for them, and that's okay, too. But it has to be not for them for the right reasons. You know, they have to have been exposed to great coaches. We had some really great environments that she was in, and you could just tell when she was doing drills. Like, she didn't necessarily want to be first. She didn't want to be first to the puck. And we have since learned that she doesn't like anything where other people lose. And so she likes things like rock climbing, where you get to explore the wall and you get to be outside and you get to do those kind of things. So you have to find what your kids love, and they can't always love what you love, and that's okay. You know, I think of my parents, they probably would have loved to have a daughter like that. 

Christie Casciano [20:33 - 20:48]: Right. But with all. You know, that's gotta be tough for you, really, because of your background, all your experiences, and so much that you can help and guide her and navigate this crazy world. Right. So how did you deal with that? 

Sami Small [20:49 - 21:38]: Well, it was hard, you know, and I think it's part of it is the grief as a parent of losing that. It's the, you know, the network that you build up as a parent in hockey. And I think it's such an amazing group of parents that you get to be around often, sometimes not. But, you know, for the most part, it's the weekend hockey tournaments. It's. I mean, I still run a hockey school all summer. I mean, there's so many opportunities that this. She could have to explore this great game. But she's been dragged to so many rinks, and, you know, she's. She's been to the Olympics. She's been to. She's been exposed to everything. And maybe because in her mind, hockey takes mom and dad away, it just isn't something she wanted to do, you know? And so, yeah, it. It's a grief. It's. 

Christie Casciano [21:38 - 21:39]: It. 

Sami Small [21:39 - 21:55]: You go through the grief, right. And then you see joy in her eyes when she's doing things she likes. So she loves art, she loves cartooning, she loves gymnastics, rock climbing, those kind of. And when you see the joy, you realize, oh, yeah, this is. You just know that. 

Christie Casciano [21:55 - 21:55]: Right. 

Sami Small [21:55 - 21:57]: I just knew hockey. 

Christie Casciano [21:57 - 21:58]: She's a different person. 

Sami Small [21:58 - 22:11]: Yeah, exactly. And that's not always easy as a parent. Right. To not want to live vicariously through your. Your child. And I think that's a good message for all of us that it always doesn't turn out the way we want it to, you know, and. 

Christie Casciano [22:11 - 22:12]: Exactly. 

Sami Small [22:12 - 22:21]: Lee and Mike, you guys are coaches, so, like, when a kid comes to you and says they don't like it. Yes. There's a lot of things you can do. And she played hockey for three years, so we tried a lot of different things. 

Lee MJ Elias [22:21 - 22:21]: Yeah. 

Sami Small [22:21 - 22:24]: At the end of the day, sometimes it's just not for every kid. 

Lee MJ Elias [22:25 - 22:34]: And I'll say this, as a coach, there's a. There's a huge difference between a kid just generally not enjoying it or wanting to do it and not wanting to play because of a coach or because of another exact. 

Sami Small [22:34 - 22:36]: Or because of a bad game or. 

Lee MJ Elias [22:36 - 22:37]: Right, right. 

Christie Casciano [22:37 - 22:39]: Or they just might not like the experience. 

Lee MJ Elias [22:39 - 22:43]: And that's. That's. That's okay, too. You know, it's funny, she loved the. 

Sami Small [22:43 - 22:47]: Dressing room before, she loved the dressing room after. She loved the cheerleading from the bench. 

Lee MJ Elias [22:48 - 23:23]: Yeah. I talk to my players a lot about the word courage. And, you know, there's a lot of different ways you can utilize that word in a lot of different situations. But the thing I say to them is that people that are courageous rarely feel that way in the moment when they're having to be Courageous. Like being courageous doesn't feel all that great. It look, looks great optically on the other side. But, you know, and I think as a parent, it takes a lot of courage, Sammy, to have a kid say, I don't want to do this, and then be like, you know what? That's okay. 

Mike Bonelli [23:23 - 23:23]: All right. 

Lee MJ Elias [23:23 - 23:24]: I just want you to be happy. 

Sami Small [23:24 - 23:26]: A lot of courage for her to say it to me. 

Lee MJ Elias [23:26 - 23:26]: Right. 

Sami Small [23:26 - 23:56]: You know, and I think she had probably said it multiple times prior and she, you know, and I wasn't hearing it right. You know, I just wasn't hearing it from her eyes and from her vantage point. So, yeah, it's, you know, it has opened up, my husband and I, our eyes to many different things. We're still really involved in the game. We still coach a lot. We still are around, but we are learning to bring in different aspects of different sports to enhance the game of hockey. 

Lee MJ Elias [23:57 - 25:01]: I'm just going to say this as a caution to parents before we move on, because I want to ask you about Stanford before we get to the Olympics. But, but I have to tell the parents out there if you think it's a Nightmare for your 9 or 10 year old to come to you and say, I don't want to play. And I'm not saying that's a fun moment. The nightmare is when they're 15 or 16 and they really are burnt and hate it and don't want to be around you or the game anymore. That's a nightmare. All right? And, and there are things beyond that that are even worse. So if your kid says to you, I don't want to play anymore, you have the right, I think, as a parent, to explore that with them. Don't get me wrong. Right. But, you know, dive into the reasons a little bit. But you also, you also have to hear it like Sammy just said. And Sammy, you did, you did. And I think it takes a lot of courage as a parent, especially you being you, to hear that and move on. Listen, I didn't mean to use courage as a segue, but I'm going to Stanford. Okay. Pretty good school. Heard that's a pretty good school from a few people. Mechanical engineering. I don't have that degree. I got a degree in broadcasting a little bit different. So does Christy. Mike, I have no idea what your degree is, and I'm sorry. 

Mike Bonelli [25:02 - 25:03]: Not mechanical engineering. 

Lee MJ Elias [25:03 - 25:15]: Yeah, I should, I should probably find that out since I've known you for a long time. You go to Stanford, you got to get your academics done. You're playing hockey on the Men's team. I just think that's an interesting story. Can you tell us about that? 

Sami Small [25:15 - 30:36]: For sure. So I. It sounds a lot better than it is. Let's just put that on the card right there. I was very academically driven, I would say, because my parents always had these rules about us playing sports that we had to get our. Our homework done. If my brother and I always played multiple sports, so we weren't just involved in one. My brother and I swam from a very young age, and swimming becomes very intensive around the age of 10. And so at the age of 10, my parents said to both of my brother and I, you can either swim or play hockey, but you can't do both. There's just not enough time. So he chose the swimming route, did a lot of sports with that. I chose the hockey route, also played all the school sports that were available to me. So did volleyball and basketball in badminton, played water polo, team handball. But the one that I really loved was track and field. And I became a thrower, a discus and javelin thrower. I think it was suited to my body type because I was strong girl from hockey, so I was doing well locally. I lucked upon this amazing coach locally who was a really great throws coach. And the great thing about being a thrower, track and field and swimming as well, because my brother went on to swim down in Texas, was that you have times or distances and nobody has to see you do it. So it's not like hockey. Trying to get a scholarship, that can be difficult because you have to fit into that program. You have to fit into that the year, the sequence, the coaches have to see you play, they have to like your style, all of that. In those kind of sports, it. That doesn't matter because you have these distances or you've competed at certain events. So I was competing on our national junior team for Canada and was throwing well in discus and javelin. Javelin is one of those sports that I encourage a lot of young girls to do because in. In the States. In the United States, javelin is banned in a lot of high schools in the United States. So there's not as many javelin throwers, so. But there's just as many javelin scholarships. So if you want to be. Get a scholarship and you happen to play any kind of throwing sport, softball, baseball, volleyball, anything like that, check out javelin because it can be the way to go. And so that's how I ended up on a scholarship down to Stanford was to throw the discus and javelin. And it was a difficult process for me to. To figure out where to go because I didn't really know how to navigate that whole world. But luckily my brother had got NCAA before me. And in Canada we don't have outdoor track and field because the season just isn't long enough. Our, our universities are done before it gets warm. And so I knew I wanted to go down to the States because I was throwing obviously outside and ended up at Stanford. And it my final two choices actually were came down to the University of Tennessee, which had the best women's track and field program, and Stanford, which had what I thought was the best academic program. And it wasn't an easy choice. But my life could have been gone in very different direction had I ended up at Tennessee, but ended up at Stanford. They had a club men's team at Stanford, so I played on the club men's team. So we played PAC 10, that became PAC 12 and now they're in the SEC. But so we played the local teams like UCLA, USC, Washington. But let's be honest, nobody goes to California or to Stanford to play hockey. So we had all sorts of guys on our team. And there we were in the acha, so there was not the, the eligibility requirements that there is in the ncaa. So we had guys that were in the med at med school that had played D1 hockey and were now in business school, med school doing their post grad. So we had guys that were very good on our top line and then our fourth line of guys only ever rollerbladed in their entire lives. So we had all of that on the same team. I think it reignited my love for the game because I was simply playing because there was a team. And being a scholarship athlete and in engineering, obviously the pressure was enormous. You just feel it every day, all day. But when I went to the rink and we practiced twice a week, we'd play on the weekends. The practice were 11 o'clock at night. I just felt free for that hour. I just felt like I wasn't thinking about anything. And so women's hockey was not an Olympic sport at the time. It wasn't like I was training and competing for something. It was just simply to refine that joy. And I had played boys AAA hockey up until the midget age, so I could compete at that level. I could contribute to the team. But also if you miss practice or you miss games, it wasn't a big deal. It wasn't, you know, it's kind of, I say it was like a glorified men's rec league team. So it was for me, just my Way to get away from everything else. And it was while I was at Stanford that women's hockey was introduced as an Olympic sport. But I don't think that was any, any part of the reason. For me, it was just simply to have an outlet. And I think it's a lot of the reasons why a lot of adults play rec hockey is for that one hour you're not thinking about anything else. Right? And there could be a thousand kids running around screaming at you at home, but for that hour, you just get that moment to yourself. 

Lee MJ Elias [30:36 - 31:06]: What's funny to me is, and you know, the ACHA at that time was kind of the way you described it. But you didn't take that and become a mechanical engineer. You took that to the Olympics. I mean, we're talking about unorthodox journeys here. I wrote a note here, guys. We have to start a show called Our Kids Throw Javelin. That's going to be an interesting hit. I gotta tap on this real quick. Multi sport athlete. We have to say it right? We have never interviewed anyone on here that wasn't a multi sport athlete. And, and it boggles our minds though. 

Sami Small [31:06 - 31:18]: The younger generation, that is just really hard to do. Like, I feel like, yes, we, we spout it all the time right now. Gta. Like, parents just can't get their kids to more than one thing. 

Mike Bonelli [31:18 - 31:25]: Like it's, they're playing coaches ironically. Don't let their kids, they all say they want to be a multi sport athlete, but then they don't let them. 

Lee MJ Elias [31:25 - 32:23]: This is why I, I say it. And again, Sammy, I, I think our, it's not a rule, but our kind of philosophy on it is there's like over 12 and under 12. All right. Yeah, the, the journey over 12 is a little different than the journey under 12. And we say all the time under 12. Yeah, you should be playing multiple sports. My kids do not play hockey in the spring. We won't. We don't allow them to. And the thing is, is apparent, like I'm Mr. Hockey in my town, right? People think I'm crazy. I'm like, we want, we're not doing Spring Lake. We're not. They're playing softball and baseball until they tell me they don't want to do it anymore. They love it, by the way. They love it. All right, so yes, to your, to your point, it is harder than it was, but I also think we make it harder than it has to be. And again, I still don't know too many NHL, pwhl, Olympic level athletes that played just hockey. That's it. Nothing else. So I think that's just part of the recipe, to your point. Totally could have another conversation about how hard that is to do, but if we don't get into your Olympic journey, the audience will find me. 

Sami Small [32:24 - 32:26]: And Chris's gonna be on. 

Lee MJ Elias [32:26 - 32:27]: Yeah, yeah, right. 

Christie Casciano [32:28 - 32:29]: How'd you get on the radar? 

Sami Small [32:30 - 33:35]: Oh, how did I get on the radar for Team Canada par Olympics? Okay, so I'm not gonna pick up the rest of the time. But at the time in women's hockey, we didn't have scouts. We didn't have any of that. Right. So the first Olympics rolls around in 98. There had been a World Championship team since 1990. So women played at the World Championships every two years. That was often a regional base camp in Canada. We had four camps, and then you would be selected from that to go. Well, I was at school in the States, so I was off of the radar. And I played boys hockey growing up, so I was even off the radar. I played in one girls hockey tournament when I was 13 called the Canada Games. I played for my province of Manitoba. I went to the first tryouts as a goalie, and nobody had. There's maybe one other girl that had ever played hockey. Most played ring at. They were teaching us how to cut this our stick at the right level. And I was kind of thinking, like, this is. Doesn't seem like much of a challenge, though. I played in that tournament at a national championships as a out player. So I was forward in defense. So clearly not on any radar for anybody. 

Christie Casciano [33:35 - 33:36]: Right. 

Sami Small [33:36 - 37:46]: Maybe not the best life decision on my part. But regardless, I loved it and it was fun. So I had never played in a women's tournament as a goaltender. And so go down to school and don't know that any of these Olympic tryouts are happening. Women's hockey is introduced as Olympic sport, but have no idea that this is all happening. My coach at Stanford, his name was Ernie Ferrari. He had a daughter that played that was like, much, much younger. So he kind of had navigated USA Hockey a little bit and asked me if I wanted to go to the USA Hockey trials. Those happening down in Anaheim. So I thought, well, this could be fun. Like what? I don't know what this is all about. And so then proceeded to say, well, are you. Do you have your American citizenship? I said, no, I. I don't have that. I just am on a student visa. He's like, well, you then you can't go to the USA tryouts. Like, anyways. So that was kind of put on the back burner. But that was the first time I'd ever heard about the Olympics kind of coming around for women's hockey. So then fast forward to the summer of 97. Had gone to the Canada Games again as a track and field athlete, had performed well there and was hoping to make the leap from the junior national team to the senior national team. Went to the national championships. And I triple faulted, which is not a good thing in throwing. You don't get your implement in the sector, you don't get a distance. And anyways, it didn't go well. So I was a little bit, we'll say, perturbed at myself and decided to go visit a friend of mine out in Calgary and saw that there was this, like, for the first time ever, a women's hockey camp. And there was just a flyer for it on the wall. And I went and I signed up for it. I didn't realize it was kind of for kids and I was already a 20 year old at that point. So I was doing the camp and enjoying it because it was the first time I'd played with girls and some of them were like older, like teenagers who were quite good. And then one day I had a man by the name of Wally Kozak come to me and say, like, why. Why are you not playing girls hockey? Like, why are you not at the Olympic tryouts right now? And I didn't know any of that that was happening. And so he's like, well, I'm running a skate tomorrow morning for some of the girls that are here early that have moved out to Calgary to start training. Would you like to come? And it's with some of the NHL and stuff like that. So anyways, the next morning, Hayley Wickenheiser, who I don't know, comes and picks me up in her little VW Rabbit. I stuff in my goal equipment in the back and we go to my first practice and Wally Kozak's running it. Half NHL, half women training for the Olympic team. I don't know any of this. I'm very naive to the whole situation. I just love being on the ice with like really good hockey players. And it's the first time I saw really good women. And anyway, so I'm out there and do the practice. Great. Go back and I finish the camp. And about a week later, Wally Kozak calls me on the phone and he says, I really think you should come back to Calgary so that the Olympic coaches can see you now. He was a mentor coach to the Olympic coaches. He also was coaching team Japan at the time. And I thought he was a senile old man because I was like, I don't think you really understand, like my level, like I've never played at that level and I couldn't go to the Olympics. And he convinced me, so he convinced me to, to switch my flight back to Stanford to simply stop in Calgary. So usually when you're flying to California from Winnipeg, you stop in Vancouver or Salt Lake City. But he's like, just have a go through Calgary just for two days. He got me a tryout, just a private tryout basically with the Olympic coaches and the rest is kind of history. So it was really thanks to Wally Kozak believing in me, my ability and my skill, doing a little bit of research and just, you know, that one coach that sees you at the right time, at the right moment. And I can't thank him enough because he completely changed the trajectory of my career. But yeah, you're, I feel like often are in those moments where and I could have easily said no and my parents were kind of like, who is this guy? 

Lee MJ Elias [37:47 - 37:48]: Yeah, yeah. 

Sami Small [37:48 - 38:00]: But it was one of those moments. You just got to take a leap of faith, I think. And if it hadn't worked out, at least I would have got to have that opportunity. But in the end it did work out and I did get to join that very first women's Olympic hockey. 

Christie Casciano [38:00 - 38:04]: That is one of the most fascinating journeys because it certainly wasn't a direct path. 

Sami Small [38:05 - 38:06]: It is very secure. 

Christie Casciano [38:06 - 38:14]: It's a lot of luck. Like you said, just being in the right place at the right time and your gut was telling you, yeah, I think I want to try this. Let's roll the dice. 

Sami Small [38:14 - 38:18]: And anybody that's ever met Wally knows that he just can be very convincing. Right, Mike? 

Mike Bonelli [38:19 - 38:28]: It's crazy. I mean the fact that, you know, he's, he's, he's, he's plucking you out of kind of obscurity and you're like, yeah, sure, I'll give it a try, why not? 

Lee MJ Elias [38:28 - 38:30]: And it wasn't a AAA showcase, right? 

Mike Bonelli [38:30 - 39:03]: And now it's like, you know, parents following their kids around with iPhones and videotaping and doing highlight films. And I mean it is the adage that if you're good enough, somebody's going to find you. And if you're. And it sounds like you were open minded enough to say, yeah, what the hell, let me give it a try. Like, like not intimidated. Not in a place where you're like, well, I don't believe in myself. So I really don't want to do, like, you had to have that other person kind of believe in you, but you obviously had to have a lot of, like, self confidence that, okay, I could. I could go out here and do this. Like. Like, I'm like. And maybe it was because of the being naive about it. I mean, maybe it was because I. 

Sami Small [39:03 - 39:13]: Think naivete definitely plays a role in it. And also I think having no ultimate outcome, you know, that this is just an experience. Enjoy a great experience. 

Lee MJ Elias [39:13 - 39:55]: It's about the joy. And there would have been no. There's no future mechanical engineering anyway. So you made a really. You made a really good job, right? Yeah, same. I want to ask this, too. In your memoir, the role I played, everybody should check that out. You discussed the importance of the team and every team member, regardless of their position. And I love that coming from a goaltender. Can you elaborate on roles both in net, out of the net, and how real championship teams have an understanding of this concept? Because I think especially in youth hockey, we don't teach this enough. And it can be taught. It can be, yeah. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. 

Sami Small [39:55 - 43:33]: Yeah, I think I learned it a little bit later in life, to be honest, because I wish I had learned it earlier. But often, I think when kids are good at sports, they are often put in positions, whether they're on the power play or they're the starting goaltender. They're often put in positions where they're able to develop a confidence. And I was often that athlete that was on the starting line or starting whatever, often not having the ability to see what was around me. And I. You know, when I was told before the 2002 Olympics in salt Lake City, the night before that the other goalie, Kim St. Pierre, would be starting the final game, it was really the first time in my career that I had really heard that, and I didn't know what to do with it. I didn't know how to process it. And I had to go back into my youth sports career. And I. I looked back into, for me specifically was volleyball. We won a provincial championship in volleyball, and I was the outside hitter on our team and had a prominent position. And we ended up winning this championship from a small school. It was a really big deal in Manitoba. That's where the national teams are housed. So volleyball is just a really big deal. And we only had three grade 12s on the team because I went to a very small school that I graduated with only 42 other classmates, because we're the start of French immersion. The school got bigger later on, but at the time, if we wanted to have a team, all the girls had to play. So you had to convince everybody to Play. So there's two other Grade 12s on the team with me, who are two of my friends, Stephanie and Karen. And they played all the way through from grade 9 to grade 12, and they stuck with it. But in the end, in the championship game, they didn't play. However, they were cheering just as loud as anybody else, you know, and when we won, they were the first ones I celebrated with. And I realized that they didn't play. Like, it didn't even dawn on me until that moment that they didn't play because I just, you know, I was so in my moment. And I think as an athlete, you become successful because you're selfish and you're, like, working on your own game. But I didn't realize just how it took the whole team to win. And it took Stephanie and Karen from the bench, cheering us on, being there for us the entire year, and, you know, sometimes playing, sometimes not playing. And in the end, in the moment, that was. Should have been the biggest joy for all of us. They just wanted to play, but they. They shared in our joy. And so when I heard that news that I wasn't going to be playing in Salt Lake City, I went back to that moment. That was the first thing I thought of, was, how did they do it? How. How were they able to be there for me and for the rest of the team? And so I had to really dissect that of, like, you know, maybe they. They had moments that were tough, and maybe that's okay. You know, I think when you're told those kind of things, you're maybe not on the power play. You're not. You don't make a team that you wanted to make. It's okay to have some grief around that. It's okay to experience that. It's just not okay to bring that to your team. And so that's the biggest takeaway that I think I learned on that day, but also specifically from my hockey career, is to have, you know, blinders on when you're training and, like, when you're trying to be the best you can, but when you come to the team, you got to be there for everybody else as well. And you have to get to know your teammates. You have to know what their journey is like, what their ups and downs are like, because that's what will create the strongest bonds, and that's what will make you a stronger Teammate moving forward. 

Mike Bonelli [43:34 - 44:32]: Can you talk specifically about being a goaltender? Right. And I think for all of us as parents, that if you have a, a player that plays goaltender, and so many parents want their player to be the only goaltender on a youth team, like, they're like, this is the best thing in the world. Like, she, he's going to get, you know, 80 games. All the practices, all the pressure, it's going to help player better. Can you just talk about from your perspective though, and learning what it. It, it is. There is a humbleness, right, of, of. Of not being the starter all the time, but also the benefit of how that other goalie can get better because there is competition. And can you talk a little bit how important it is to have that dynamic on a team because you're reflecting back on your youth. If you never had any of those experiences or you were oblivious to any of those people, like, would you have had the same reaction when it finally hit you in the biggest moment of your, of your hockey career? 

Sami Small [44:33 - 48:38]: When I actually needed the lesson, right? I was, I played. When I played youth hockey, we mostly rotated. So I always had another goalie with me, always had a goalie partner. And even at the highest level when I played pro, we. I played for a coach named Ken Dufton, and he had a formula that it was just always rotating the goaltenders. And no matter if it ended up on the national championship day or not, we rotated it and often. Kendra Fisher, she was my goalie partner for about 10 years in there. So it kind of went back and forth. And I know you've had her on the show. And so that's why I had never really experienced the choice or when the choice happened, it was me. And so I had never experienced not being the choice. But I think developing those relationships with those goaltenders is so key. And I had some really great boys on my team that as goalies that accepted me. And what's funny as a goalie is that you never get to out battle the other goalie on your team, right? So it's a perfect scenario to create great teamwork because you are kind of in it together. You're at opposite ends of the practice and you never really. It's not like you can go and score on the other goalie, right? So all you can do is uplift that other goalie so that you can be better. And whenever we had any kind of competition drills, that's when I wanted to outperform the other goalie. But that's also when you realize that it's you and the other goalie against everybody else. And when you can start to shift and have that mindset, I think it can be so key to developing yourself as a goalie. When I joined the national team, that's not how it was framed to us. And so it was. Goalies and players, too, at the time were often pitted against each other. And so I was initially, I was the third goalie behind Ameno Rayom and Leslie Redden. I idolized them. It was amazing. But the next year, they were not there anymore. And so suddenly I became the starting goaltender. I then had Kim St Pierre and Charlie Labonte for a long time in my career. And I, looking back, wished that we would have had more of that teamwork mentality. Now, they were amazing people, and I love them to death, but it wasn't like they were my best friends. And later on, Charlie and Kim became best friends, and they really supported each other in this amazing way. That was sort of after my career, but because we had a different coaching staff. But at the time in my career, it was like, well, you can play if the other goalie falters or vice versa. And I think as coaches, it's really important to recognize the information you're giving to your goaltender. I think it's important in youth hockey that you rotate the goalies, that everybody has an opportunity, or at least that the backup goalie has enough games that they feel a part of it, because you want everybody to feel a part of the journey. I said to Kim just recently, you know, both Kim and Charlie and I are now really good friends. And I said, you know, I wish I would have got to know you better back then. I wish that the parameters would have been set up in a way that we could have often been together. Like, maybe we could have trained together and the goalies did their own thing or whatever, but it would be like groups of people, you know, and didn't lend itself to the best mentally, because you felt like just nobody understood. Like, if I had a bad game, I couldn't just go to the players, right? And my friends on the team and say, you know, I had a bad game. I. I wish I could have had Charlie and Kim, and I didn't necessarily. We didn't have that relationship. And I wish that we would have. We now post career, have that relationship, but it just wasn't set up in that way. However, when I first won my first world championship, Kim was the backup goalie at the time. And I can remember going to her and knowing that, like, I wanted Her. I knew that she was told that she wasn't going to get to play, and so I asked her to sign the back of my stick so she could be part of that moment. 

Lee MJ Elias [48:38 - 48:39]: That's cool. 

Sami Small [48:39 - 49:38]: She said later that that was like, one of the biggest things for her to feel like a part of that. So I think, you know, we can do little things, but it takes the. I think it really takes the coaching staff to create that environment too, because either you can be pitted against each other and it's like the last goalie standing gets to play. But that's not really good for the dynamics of. Especially. We always had three within our environment rather than, you know, it's the goalies against the world. I think that if you can create that dynamic where the goalies are working together and helping each other and you're learning. And I, I learned so much in my career from Kim and Charlie just watching them because they came in with this amazing techniques. They're both francophone goaltending students that had, like, learned so much, I didn't even know how to butterfly. So I really owe my career to them. But, yeah, I wish, looking back that we had had a different relationship because I had that on my club teams. 

Lee MJ Elias [49:39 - 50:20]: It's amazing perspective. And, you know, before we get to our rapid fire segment, I do want to ask you to dive into maybe what can coaches do at all levels to help cultivate that. That aura that you're talking about? Because I do think this is something in the game that's changed. I think that the. The modern youth athlete. It's not the youth athlete from 20, 30 years ago. All right, like, like mental health is a priority to kids and they. And they understand what that is. So what do you think coaches can do, really, at any level, Sammy, To. To. To incorporate some of this team first mentality role, first mentality. And that, you know, iron sharpens iron, not. You have to use your iron to, you know, swipe at someone. 

Sami Small [50:20 - 52:31]: Yeah. So great question. And I've thought a lot about this over the years, like, what could they have done differently? Little things like sitting the goalies together in a room goes a long way because you're coming off the ice and you're, you know, turning to that person who is not playing and asking, oh, what did you see on that situation? Or what? What happened there? So little things like that. We never sat near each other. There was always like, you're in different quadrants of the room having games where, when you're playing small area games where the goalies get points for things, but they get the points together so that they are working as a team together. I think that that can go a long way. And then as the goalies get older and you're doing video and feedback with them, doing it together so that you can dissect the other goalie and you can learn from each other and you can have that open, frank conversation with them so that when you're in the game and you're down by a goal and you're the backup goalie not playing, you feel comfortable saying to the other goalie, okay, when you're playing the puck, like, there's somebody right on you. Like, you need to feel comfortable as a backup goalie, because often as a backup goalie, you feel like, should I say anything? I don't know if I should. But you need to develop that teamwork mentality as coaches before they get into that situation. Because then as coaches, you don't have to worry about it as much. You know, there's another goalie they can have that conversation with, especially when there's no goalie coach there that day. So I think as coaches, we can set up the parameters that allow that to happen more. And nobody understands really what the goalie is going through except for that other goalie. So the last thing you want is for them to not feel comfortable in that situation or feel like one was chosen, one was not chosen. I think the biggest mentality as a goalie is knowing that when you're not chosen that your time will come. But for that time, the chosen role that you have is the backup role, and that is a role in and of itself. So how do I play this to the best of my ability? And so changing your mindset to, it's not that I didn't get chosen to play, it's that I got chosen to be the backup today. And how can I do this to the best of my ability and make a difference in this role? 

Lee MJ Elias [52:31 - 52:45]: Sim, that's a tremendous answer. I'm not going to lie to you. This time went by way too fast. This show could keep going for a while, but we. We have to get to our rapid fire round, which. Christy, I know you love this. Mike, I know you're a fan as well. Who wants to go first? 

Mike Bonelli [52:46 - 52:49]: I'm gonna let Christy go. Okay. 

Sami Small [52:49 - 52:52]: Okay. So do I need to also have rapid answers? Because I am. 

Christie Casciano [52:52 - 52:52]: Yes. 

Sami Small [52:52 - 52:53]: Not often. Very soon. 

Lee MJ Elias [52:54 - 52:57]: Christy goes, yes, I will be succinct. 

Christie Casciano [52:57 - 53:01]: It'll be fun. I think the first question is, what advice would you give? Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [53:01 - 53:04]: Best advice yeah. Best advice you've ever received. 

Mike Bonelli [53:04 - 53:04]: All right. 

Christie Casciano [53:04 - 53:08]: Best advice you have ever received. Go, Sammy. 

Sami Small [53:09 - 53:27]: Best advice I have ever received is as a goaltender. As a goalie. Yeah. I wish I could be faster with this. Best advice. I don't be okay with being bad at something. 

Christie Casciano [53:27 - 53:28]: There you go. 

Lee MJ Elias [53:29 - 53:30]: That's a good answer. 

Mike Bonelli [53:31 - 53:50]: Yeah, well, I'm bad. I'm bad at asking questions. I'm gonna be good at this one. The favorite. Because you played everywhere. I mean, you're, it's, it's, it's wild. The, the favorite arena you've played in. Not broadcasting or. I'd like to hear that too, though. So mine's a two part. Your favorite arena you played in and your favorite arena you've done a broadcast out from. 

Lee MJ Elias [53:50 - 53:51]: Oh, that's a good. 

Sami Small [53:51 - 54:09]: So my favorite and least favorite all together to play in. It doesn't exist anymore. Was in Berkeley, California, playing against the Golden Bears, which was our main rival. It was a figure skating rink, I want to say of some sort. There was disco balls, there was a whole wall. 

Lee MJ Elias [54:11 - 54:13]: Shiny objects. 

Sami Small [54:13 - 54:31]: I don't know what was going on on the side. It was like wire cage. And the bottom of the rink was black, so look like the puck. However, the fans were so into it, they would bring their whole band out. They had. 

Christie Casciano [54:32 - 54:32]: Wow. 

Sami Small [54:33 - 54:57]: Yeah, it was incredible. They would pack the arena for the Golden Skate. And that was probably. Those were some of my favorite games to play in. And that rink was like unlike any rink, actually. When I met Wayne Gretzky for the first time at the Olympics, we were talking about playing hockey in California. So we're talking about all of these random rinks in California that exists that should never have had hockey played on them, but they did because they, they became the hockey rink. 

Lee MJ Elias [54:57 - 55:00]: I, I, we've all seen some and. 

Christie Casciano [55:00 - 55:01]: It'S not there anymore. Right. 

Lee MJ Elias [55:01 - 55:16]: Obscure barn. No, I hope it is still there. Black ice. That's not a Goalies must love that. All right, last question. I'll let you have two answers on this. Due to the nature of the question, you'll understand why I'm asking that. Most challenging opponent you've ever faced. 

Sami Small [55:18 - 55:40]: I would say Cami Granado. And I say this because she wasn't the best at anything. She wasn't the fastest skater, she wasn't the best to handler. She didn't have the great, a great shot, but she was always in the right spot and just the smartest player I've ever played against and always a threat. And you never knew why. She was just like always thinking the game a million miles ahead of all the rest. 

Lee MJ Elias [55:40 - 55:43]: That's an elusive right, that elusiveness. 

Sami Small [55:44 - 55:44]: Yeah. 

Lee MJ Elias [55:44 - 56:08]: Sammy, this was awesome. I mean that we could probably go on for another hour here easily, but the time's up, so we have to. I want to, I want to thank you so much for being here today and sharing your insight. And again, for the kids listening, we're going to do an hour, sorry, a ride to the Rink episode. This, this has been an Our Kids Play Goalie, but this could have easily been like our Kids Play Hockey episode. We've been so, so succinct. But thank you so much for being here today. 

Sami Small [56:08 - 56:14]: Well, thank you to all of you and thank you for what you do for the hockey community. It certainly means a lot that. Thank you. 

Lee MJ Elias [56:14 - 57:16]: That means a ton coming from you. I, I appre you mentioned Wayne Gretzky in this episode and you thanked us. So I'm going to say that we are now connected in that way. But that's going to do it for this edition of Our Kids Play Goalie. For Christy Cash Burns, Mike Benelli and Sammy Joe Small, I'm Le Elias. Remember, you can hear all the episodes wherever you listen, podcasts or our Kids Play Hockey dot com. If you have a question or a comment or a topic you want us to discuss, email us team atourkids playhockey.com or use the link that accompanies the episode description and text us. We'll get it. Everyone have a wonderful, wonderful day. Enjoy your hockey. We'll see you next time on our Kids Play Goalie. We hope you enjoyed this edition of our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network, or our website, our kids playhockey.com also make sure to check out our children's book, When Hobby Hockey Stops atwhen hockey stops dot com. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of our Kids Play Hockey and we'll see you on the next episode.